136 réponses à ce sujet

[This is the End My Friend]

I read that & heard Ron Perlman in my head

 

I think I might have held it against you if you didn't. 

[L. Han]

Do you mean without the lend lease act or do you mean just straight up Germany vs the Soviet Union? If its just Germany vs the Soviet union Germany DEFINITELY wins. All the units in the west would be available to the germans, and the British and American bombing campaign would mean the German industry could keep going completely unimpeded, not to mention the Luftwaffe wouldn't have to worry about American or British air.

If you mean just without the Lend lease act I think you might have a point about numbers. But a few things to consider, a stalemate might mean the Germans have time to develop a nuclear bomb, and then its game over. And also, without the American vehicles(we gave them over 400,000 of them) not to mention all the oil, the Soviets would be moving FAR slower, and have way less tanks. Sure, the Soviets had a huge population, but that will only get you so far when casualties are so high. How long does morale last with such high casualties?

 

A lot of the soviet pilots also had training from British experts during the war. Without them, the soviets would have problems with manning most of their new aircraft. The Soviet workhorse tank, the T34 is based on a rejected American tank design (reason why they rejected is unknown to me) but the design was so effective against the Germans because they lacked any weaponry capable of puncturing it.

 

The tank that gave a lot of grief to Western forces, PzV Panzerkampfwagen V's design was heavily based on the Soviet T34.

 

In short, innovative tank designs with some outside help helped stem the invasion to a grind.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

If you mean just without the Lend lease act I think you might have a point about numbers. But a few things to consider, a stalemate might mean the Germans have time to develop a nuclear bomb, and then its game over. And also, without the American vehicles(we gave them over 400,000 of them) not to mention all the oil, the Soviets would be moving FAR slower, and have way less tanks. Sure, the Soviets had a huge population, but that will only get you so far when casualties are so high. How long does morale last with such high casualties?

Yeah i ment without the US help, id still say it would have became the same result, just slower with the soviets wearing the germans down with a war of attrition since they could afford more combat loses then Germany could thanks to their higher numbers

[Fast Jimmy]

The Germans came VERY close to succeeding in Russia even with America and Britain bombing German industry, and without all the units in the west not being available for use in the eastern front. And Napoleon came pretty damn close too. I think people really tend to overestimate the effect of Russias climate in various wars, as every time an invading army has been beaten by them(think the Nazis and Napoleon) the attacking armies had made huge mistakes that were likely going to cost them a victory anyway.

I am not sure the Soviets could move quickly enough to institute a scorched earth campaign. Nor am I certain that their population could sustain such a thing. Think about it. No American Vehicles means they are moving much slower, not to mention they would be producing less tanks because now they need to produce their own transports too. Can the Soviets outrun the Germans, who have a fully modern air-force that had taken out thousands of soviet planes and Faced off against America and Britain all at the same time? Furthermore, the addition of units from the western front to Russia would have been game changing. And not just troops, but all the vehicles and equipment too.

I have said before that Industry and manufacturing won ww2. Without Britain and America, German industry can continue to crank out vehicles unchallenged, and they would all go right for Russia.

 

I agree - WW2 also, however, gave rise to both the military industrial complex that has led to the world being a state of low-level war for nearly a century and also directly contributed to the obesity of America and (soon) the rest of the industrialized war.

 

So... you win some, you lose some?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I always find it funny that technology seems to advance the fastest when we're all trying to kill each other

[L. Han]

^People tend to overestimate the German's in terms of equipment and vehicle effectiveness. Germans were being slowed down by the Soviets, not only because of their policy of "moving everything valuable away from the Germans" but because they had a much more mechanized force compared to the Germans.

 

The Germans barely had anything bigger than a 50mm cannon (which was ineffective against Soviet T-34s and KV-1s) and they lacked any proper anti-tank capabilities. Aside from trying to burn the crew alive or bundling grenades to blast out the engine, they Germans were literally in deep crap. It took them a year in order to start rolling out Pak guns and bigger cannons for their Panzers.

 

Also, German weaponry tend to fail in the harsh cold. Soviet weaponry on the other hand, performed perfectly in the cold. A good example is the DP-28 which was such a clunky design and quite cumbersome to use. But the bullet feeding mechanism is so simple that it would not be jammed in the cold or heated from prolonged use.

[L. Han]

 

 

 

Yeah, I have read a bit about this as well but I don't have my sources on me, do you have any good links on this I can read? I remember reading the reason America rejected larger tank designs was because we had to transport them across the ocean to europe, so the smaller sherman was better for this.
 

 

 

 

This might be true, but Americans have always been quite strange about their choices or armaments in the past. An example for this is when the Americans joined in the First World War. the Americans rejected the idea of using the British made Lewis Machinegun (a mistake they paid with hundreds of lives) and decided to make the troops use the French made Chauchet Machinegun (a pretty bad gun, even by 1910s standards).

 

The reason behind this is believed to be because "An American guy did not like the guy who designed the Lewis gun so much"

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Id say the soviets biggest advantage against Germany was that someone as inept as Hitler was in charge of military decisions, who thought invading Russia when the UK hadn't been defeated yet was a good idea

[Dio Demon]

Id say the soviets biggest advantage against Germany was that someone as inept as Hitler was in charge of military decisions, who thought invading Russia when the UK hadn't been defeated yet was a good idea

And push through the Russian Winter.

 

Russian winters are just as brutal as Australia is everyday.

[L. Han]

^If you had looked through their view, they did have a plan that seemed flawless. There were summits where the French, British, and the Americans were having to negotiate with the Soviets to put pressure on the eastern front (Just like WW1). This gave the Reich plenty of reason to suspect an attack from the east.

 

A thing about empires and nations who are constantly finding more wars to fight. In order to ensure victories, you need bigger armies. In order to get bigger armies, you need more money (or things that can be exchanged in value). In order to secure more valuables, you need to win more. So the German Reich had to expand its borders in order to fuel it's growing industry and military.

 

It is important to remember that the Germans thought they would be able to steamroll Russia. There were many reasons to believe that the Soviets would be a push over as they have had a series of embarrassing wars (Finland, Japan). But when the Germans got there they were facing new tanks and a much fiercer air force. During this time, the Soviets also had new policies regarding women. So their military forces had nearly doubled.

 

While we have the benefit of seeing the results today, we cannot judge how 'bad' their plans were at the time. Things would have been a lot different if they had satellites and instant messaging.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

And push through the Russian Winter.
 
Russian winters are just as brutal as Australia is everyday.

Hitler might have been a great politician & orator but he was a lousy tactician & military commander

[L. Han]

^Nah, he was just jealous of Stalin's mustache.

 

On the serious note, I don't know how good he is as a military leader. But his obsession with sub-machine guns really annoyed all the other military leaders.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

The Germans came VERY close to succeeding in Russia even with America and Britain bombing German industry, and without all the units in the west not being available for use in the eastern front. And Napoleon came pretty damn close too. I think people really tend to overestimate the effect of Russias climate in various wars, as every time an invading army has been beaten by them(think the Nazis and Napoleon) the attacking armies had made huge mistakes that were likely going to cost them a victory anyway.
 

 

When your hands are shaking from cold you can't fight well. forgetting about dying at nights from cold...

 

In the final days of war Hitler said...

 

the proper reaction to it would be:

 

 

But indeed:

 

 

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Id say the soviets biggest advantage against Germany was that someone as inept as Hitler was in charge of military decisions, who thought invading Russia when the UK hadn't been defeated yet was a good idea

 

Well, in 1945 Russia had 2.5 million troops and Germany had 200,000 troops in eastern front max. Their defeat was inevitable.

[SwobyJ]

My grandfather on my (non closely related) uncle's side was in WWII. I think he was a sniper. I think I was told, when I was younger, that he was just a cook (so that was a lie), and I like to imagine that was a reflection of a more true story of a war recollection he has of a young soldier (possibly effeminate, though he didn't use that word so I dunno) who 'wasn't fit for war' (or whatever his exact words were) and loved to hand out or bake cookies for everyone.  It would fit, at least. The guy, from what I recall of the story, was shot to death right near my grandfather while doing something innocently - maybe handing out cookies. Its a very vague story, but the gist of it has stayed in my mind.

 

My grandfather is still alive, in his late 90s, and quite possibly will live to be older than 100. He's one of Canada's oldest vets now, I think.

 

None of the rest of my known family is involved in the military, and we became themed less on farming and war, and more on teaching and nursing and engineering (space or computer related).

[Cknarf]

^I would love to hear more about that^

I'm not saying I want you to bug your grandpa, but...

[BioWareM0d13]

In the spirit of the thread...

 

[BioWareM0d13]

Here's one on the dark side of command, by a British officer who served in Burma...

 

 

 

The stretchers lay in the path itself, and in each stretcher lay a soldier of 111 brigade. The first man was quite naked and a shell had removed the entire contents of his stomach. Between his chest and pelvis there was a bloody hollow, behind it his spine. Another had no legs and no hips, his trunk ending just below the waist. A third had no left arm, shoulder, or breast, all torn away in one piece. A fourth had no face and whitish liquid was trickling out of his head into the mud. A fifth seemed to have been torn in pieces by a mad giant, and his lips bubbled gently.

 

Nineteen men lay there. A few conscious. At least, their eyes moved, but without light in them.

 

The doctor said, "I've got another thirty on ahead, who can be saved, if we can carry them." The rain clattered so loud on the bamboo that I could hardly hear what he said. "These men have no chance. They're full of morphia. Most of them have bullet and splinter wounds beside what you can see. Not one chance at all, sir, I give you my word of honour. Look, this man's died already, and that one. None can last another two hours, at the outside."

 

Very well. I have two thousand lives in my hand, besides these. One small mistake, one little moment of hesitation and I will kill five times these nineteen.

I said aloud, "Very well. I don't want them to see any Japanese." I was trying to smile down into the flat white face below me, that had no belly, but there was no sign of recognition, or hearing, or feeling. Shells and bombs burst on the slope above and bullets clattered and whined overhead.

 

"Do you think I want to do it?" The doctor cried in helpless anger. "We've been fighting to save that man for twenty-four hours and then just now, in the M.D.S., he was hit in the same place." His voice changed. "We can't spare any more morphia."

 

"Give it to those whose eyes are open," I said. "Get the stretcher bearers on it at once. Five minutes."

 

He nodded and I went back up to the ridge for the last time. One by one, carbine shots exploded curtly behind me. I put my hands to my ears but nothing could shut out the sound.

 

I found Titch Hurst of the Cameronians on the ridge, and Douglas Larpent, the latter commanding the rear party. I said, "Retire in five minutes. I shall be with the first layback at the water point."

 

We looked across the shallow valley where the forward sections were engaging the Japanese with a sharp fire. The fire strengthened, under Douglas' orders. I walked down the path, looking, but the bodies had been well hidden in the bamboo and the path was quite empty. I muttered, "I'm sorry," and "Forgive me," and hurried on.

 

The Road Past Mandalay by John Masters

[AventuroLegendary]

It's kind of unnerving to think that the outcome of the war shifted on a knife's edge at times.

 

 

The Germans came VERY close to succeeding in Russia even with America and Britain bombing German industry, and without all the units in the west not being available for use in the eastern front. And Napoleon came pretty damn close too. I think people really tend to overestimate the effect of Russias climate in various wars, as every time an invading army has been beaten by them(think the Nazis and Napoleon) the attacking armies had made huge mistakes that were likely going to cost them a victory anyway.

 

Well, Russian weather never really stopped the Mongols but the French and Germans who invaded weren't nomadic horsemen so it's not quite an apt comparison.

[vometia]

This might be true, but Americans have always been quite strange about their choices or armaments in the past. An example for this is when the Americans joined in the First World War. the Americans rejected the idea of using the British made Lewis Machinegun (a mistake they paid with hundreds of lives) and decided to make the troops use the French made Chauchet Machinegun (a pretty bad gun, even by 1910s standards).

 

The reason behind this is believed to be because "An American guy did not like the guy who designed the Lewis gun so much"

 

I think the Lewis was mainly of Belgian manufacture, though BSA (I think) and others made it under licence.  There seemed to be some history with Lewis, an American himself, and some of the US top brass which led to his design not being adopted pretty much out of sheer petulance.  The Chauchat was a kinda good idea in principle but appallingly badly executed, which led to it often being described as the worst machine gun of all time.

 

Er anyway, my grandfather also participated in The Second Unpleasantness.  He was an RAF chap stationed in North Africa and enjoyed talking about military stuff with me when I was little.

[s-jay2676]

My grandfather on my mother's side was helping the partisans during the war. They were smuggling weapons, munition etc. His future wife, my grandmother, was taken from her home and forced to work in a munition factory in Germany. My father's parents, who were Germans, were locked up in a prison camp after the war had ended. And on top of that an uncle of the stepfather of may father's was in the SS.

[Nattfare]

Have no relatives that I know of that faught in WWII. My grandmother was a nurse in London when the city was bombed by the Germans. One story she told was that she and two other women had to brave the surface. They were going to a storage to get more medical supplies only to realise that none of them had taken the key. But when they came back with key in hand the building was gone. Had they remembered to bring they key with them the first time, they would have been inside that storage when it was destroyed...

Also Sweden tried to invade Russia at winter during the 1700's. Frozen, hungry, with little ammo, low morale and depleted the Swedish army was defeated at Poltava in Ukraine.