304 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

Original scene 

Can you pinpoint the exact line or timestamp in this video where you felt the ending just stopped being coherent? Personally I think it stops at about the 2 minute mark.
 

Extended Cut 

In the Extended Cut version it's, again, after the investigative choices and when Shepard makes the [INSERT ARTISTIC MESSAGE] and then they go on to talk about making a solution. I just can't help but feel it should've been more of a debate and using the dialogue wheel to counterargue ethics and logic than taking his logic at face value and then going through with his programmed solutions.
 
I don't mind it if you're like "It stops being coherent as soon as you rise up the elevator" either. You're entitled to your opinion so go ahead.

[KotorEffect3]

It doesn't fall apart.  My opinion and I am sticking to it.

[Daemul]

First 10 minutes of ME2, that's where it falls apart.

[wolfhowwl]

When Shepard reaches the beacon on Eden Prime.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard: Solution? To what?

 

Child: Chaos.

 

Chaos of what? Sovereign had said something about the chaos of organic evolution, but nope. Not that. The kid said "The created will always rebel against their creators."

 

Well we don't find out until the Extended Cut that the Catalyst rebelled against its creators and created the first true reaper - they did not approve. The more Bioware writes in this this scene the deeper the hole they dig. The Leviathans were pulled out their asses to justify the original ending.

 

So with the ending it is the word "Chaos," because nothing after it makes any sense. The solution is to chaos, and the galaxy was pretty orderly before the reapers showed up.

 

It is here where you found out you were in an entirely different story than what you had played for 119 hrs 50 minutes. For the next several minutes you were now in a different story with a different plot, having to accept a different premise. You might as well had just skipped everything and gone straight to the Battle for Earth and charged up the beam, because nothing before it mattered except for feels. You chose how The Illusive Man died: suicide or kill him. Then you talked to the kid. Picked your favorite color. The End.

 

Stop trying to find something deep in this story. The first story is a 1970s sci-fi action drama. ME2 is a late 1980s sci-fi action movie filled with one liners. And ME3 is a late 1990s verson of the same. Then the writers tacked a 2011 BS ending on it. It doesn't work. It doesn't make sense. The ending needed a complete rewrite.

[GalacticWolf5]

Nothing falls apart.

Edit: The original ending doesn't matter anymore. Get over it people. Extended Cut and Leviathan DLC provide the true and complete ending.

[GalacticWolf5]

Chaos of what?

The chaos it's talking about is the repetitive conflict between Organics and Synthetics.

[God]

First 10 minutes of ME2, that's where it falls apart.

 

Nah, ME2 keeps it together reasonably well.

 

ME1 is where it falls apart.

[Valmar]

It lasts until 50 seconds. It losts me after "no, the citadel is a part of me."

 

Making the catalyst be the reaper AI god and IS the citadel....Goes against entire plot of the first game. It doesn't really make it "Fall apart" in my eyes though. Its more like a glare and a hiss "plothole!" The ending doesn't "fall apart" for me.

 

That being said I have nothing against its logic or goal. I think a lot of this talk about wanting to have an ethical or philosophical debate with the reapers is silly. We're at war, stop wasting your time sipping tea and discussing higher society with the enemy. Kill them. You're a weapon with a singular purpose. Lol.

 

In all seriousness though if you could actually convince the reaper god to convert to Mormonism with a brief talk at the end then THAT would had ruined everything for me. That would be a bigger crime in my eyes than mainly everything else the ending did.

[DeathScepter]

Nah, ME2 keeps it together reasonably well.

 

ME1 is where it falls apart.

 

it is when ME3 that everything falls apart.

[DeathScepter]

It lasts until 50 seconds. It losts me after "no, the citadel is a part of me."

 

Making the catalyst be the reaper AI god and IS the citadel....Goes against entire plot of the first game. It doesn't really make it "Fall apart" in my eyes though. Its more like a glare and a hiss "plothole!" The ending doesn't "fall apart" for me.

 

That being said I have nothing against its logic or goal. I think a lot of this talk about wanting to have an ethical or philosophical debate with the reapers is silly. We're at war, stop wasting your time sipping tea and discussing higher society with the enemy. Kill them. You're a weapon with a singular purpose. Lol.

 

In all seriousness though if you could actually convince the reaper god to convert to Mormonism with a brief talk at the end then THAT would had ruined everything for me. That would be a bigger crime in my eyes than mainly everything else the ending did.

 

 

First I don't think that The Mormon Church would accept Starbrat or any Reaper as a rule . Even if they did convert them and gave them lessons on the Church, how would you baptize a 2 km Ship or the Citadel? Trust me, Starbrat or any Reaper joining the Mormon church will be worse than the ending we gotten due to logistic of everything.

[themikefest]

I would tell you, but there's not enough time to explain it.

[Valmar]

First I don't think that The Mormon Church would accept Starbrat or any Reaper as a rule . Even if they did convert them and gave them lessons on the Church, how would you baptize a 2 km Ship or the Citadel? Trust me, Starbrat or any Reaper joining the Mormon church will be worse than the ending we gotten due to logistic of everything.

 

I know it would be worse. That was my point. Those who argue that Shepard should had been able to convince the reapers they were wrong in the last moments of the series by some philosophical or ethical debate of words is silly. You're taking my Mormon line too literally.

[SwobyJ]

I don't think anything outright falls apart.

 

But an unraveling? Oh yes.

 

And to me, it starts about Cronos-London, maybe as early as Thessia-Sanctuary.

 

The Catalyst conversation (and even prior to that) is Bizarro World though.

 

But I like to think there's a better purpose to this than "Wouldn't this be cool if...."

[SwobyJ]

It lasts until 50 seconds. It losts me after "no, the citadel is a part of me."

 

Making the catalyst be the reaper AI god and IS the citadel....Goes against entire plot of the first game. It doesn't really make it "Fall apart" in my eyes though. Its more like a glare and a hiss "plothole!" The ending doesn't "fall apart" for me.

 

That being said I have nothing against its logic or goal. I think a lot of this talk about wanting to have an ethical or philosophical debate with the reapers is silly. We're at war, stop wasting your time sipping tea and discussing higher society with the enemy. Kill them. You're a weapon with a singular purpose. Lol.

 

In all seriousness though if you could actually convince the reaper god to convert to Mormonism with a brief talk at the end then THAT would had ruined everything for me. That would be a bigger crime in my eyes than mainly everything else the ending did.

 

That's one of the weirdest parts to me. The bolded.

 

I 'fix' it by imagining that Sovereign is the Intelligence, and that it only transferred what it could to the Citadel and lay in wait to see what this promising Shepard could actually achieve.

 

Thus the Crucible could very well still attach to the Citadel, but perhaps it'd otherwise blow everything up everywhere (an unregulated explosion). But with the 'Catalyst' entity in the Citadel, we lucked out and had an Intelligence that could do the work to calculate the ending choices in combination with the Crucible. He brings Shepard into a mind world (like Leviathan) to make the decision in a more symbolic format (lol shooting tube), and stuff happens.

 

Or something.

 

It is still a rough concept. Regardless, again, I try to reconcile the whole 'Sovereign needing to open the Citadel' deal by going 'Okay, yeah he still needed to do that, as he's the master of the Cycles and ruler of the Reapers, as a fully 'synthetic' Reaper, but he had to hide on the Citadel to see if this Shepard guy could actually challenge his Cycle'.

[angol fear]

Nothing falls apart.

Edit: The original ending doesn't matter anymore. Get over it people. Extended Cut and Leviathan DLC provide the true and complete ending.

Agree that nothing falls apart.

But no Extended cut and Leviathan don't provide "the true and complete ending". The true ending still the original ending. That is the Bioware's vision of its ending, that's the most complex writing, and yes it matters. Those who can understand the original ending dislike the extended cut, why? Those two DLC was what people needed to understand the ending, and to have the feeling that it doesn't break with their habit of reading. DLC made to please people is makes something better. No, and those DLC create problems that most people can't see because they don't care about narration, they only care about story. The most explicit it is, the better it is for them. The most satisfying it is, the better it is for them. But ignoring the intentions and the logic of the writing ( which are two different things, related but different) to say that something is better, I disagree on that.

[Kabooooom]

I don't think anything outright falls apart.

But an unraveling? Oh yes.

And to me, it starts about Cronos-London, maybe as early as Thessia-Sanctuary.

The Catalyst conversation (and even prior to that) is Bizarro World though.

But I like to think there's a better purpose to this than "Wouldn't this be cool if...."

I agree with Thessia-Sanctuary, that is where the story gets rushed and haphazard. For example, it was poorly elucidated in the plot that the default function of the Crucible was to destroy the Reapers only, and that the Illusive Man was aware of this and, at a late stage, aware of the Citadel being necessary for the Crucible to work. His intention was to MODIFY the function of the Crucible in order to Control the Reapers. Not to take advantage of a function which already existed. In fact, at one point in the story he outright tells you this. That was the entire point of the Sanctuary research - to find a way to control the Reapers, and then a way to implement it via the Crucible/Citadel. But modifying the Crucible is impossible, since it is basically under lock and key in nowherespace. So he goes to the Citadel, probably with a plan to implement Control once the Crucible docks with it by somehow modifying the Citadel itself. But, he was indoctrinated all along. He gave the Citadel to the Reapers not because of lolwutindoctrination, but because in his indoctrinated mind he thought it would play into his plan by bringing events into motion in which the Crucible would dock. Ie: He didn't realize he was indoctrinated.

But all of this was poorly written and the majority of people missed the point entirely, leaving a giant "WTF was the point" for many people starting after Thessia and then continuing to the end.

[KaiserShep]

The chaos it's talking about is the repetitive conflict between Organics and Synthetics.

Makes me wish that Xen Morrigan would walk into the frame and just tell everyone why this was all horseshit though. Chaos is the stuff of life, man.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

That's one of the weirdest parts to me. The bolded.

 

I 'fix' it by imagining that Sovereign is the Intelligence, and that it only transferred what it could to the Citadel and lay in wait to see what this promising Shepard could actually achieve.

 

[AlanC9]

It lasts until 50 seconds. It losts me after "no, the citadel is a part of me."
 
Making the catalyst be the reaper AI god and IS the citadel....Goes against entire plot of the first game.

I've never really understood this argument. Before we find out about the Catalyst we know that some Prothean scientists got to the Citadel and did something that stopped the Reapers from returning. But when we find out about the Catalyst we... well, nothing' s actually any different. The scientists did something and the Reapers couldn't return. A Reaper intelligence on the Citadel doesn't change anything.

As for the thread topic: sometime during ME1? I'm not sure exactly when I realized that the Reapers were never actually going to make sense. I just went with it in ME1, and then the sequels

[Valmar]

Agree that nothing falls apart.

But no Extended cut and Leviathan don't provide "the true and complete ending". The true ending still the original ending. That is the Bioware's vision of its ending, that's the most complex writing, and yes it matters. Those who can understand the original ending dislike the extended cut, why? Those two DLC was what people needed to understand the ending, and to have the feeling that it doesn't break with their habit of reading. DLC made to please people is makes something better. No, and those DLC create problems that most people can't see because they don't care about narration, they only care about story. The most explicit it is, the better it is for them. The most satisfying it is, the better it is for them. But ignoring the intentions and the logic of the writing ( which are two different things, related but different) to say that something is better, I disagree on that.

 

I never will be able to grasp your hyper-love mindset with ME3's ending. Loving the original and hating EC? Whatever for? EC doesn't change anything about the original ending. It only elaborates upon it. If you already liked the ending EC did nothing to change it. It just gives you more. Now if someone was a diehard IT fan I can see why they'd hate EC since it does make strides in disproving that little "theory". Still, why would someone who liked the original hate extended cut?

 

 

I've never really understood this argument. Before we find out about the Catalyst we know that some Prothean scientists got to the Citadel and did something that stopped the Reapers from returning. But when we find out about the Catalyst we... well, nothing' s actually any different. The scientists did something and the Reapers couldn't return. A Reaper intelligence on the Citadel doesn't change anything.

 

A reaper intelligence ON the citadel perhaps. It would be a stretch, a hell of a stretch, but it wouldn't be so in-your-face. If the catalyst only projected itself on the citadel, okay. It doesn't do that though. It is the citadel.

 

It's the citadel and yet it needed keepers to activate the relay? Its the citadel and yet it needed soverign to interface and turn on the relay? None of that makes any sense. The Catalyst is the Citadel OS, it shouldn't require anyone's help in triggering its own software. The reapers are sentient starships. They don't need a pilot to guide them and fire their weapons - they ARE the pilot, they ARE the weapons. The citadel is the catalyst. Therefore it should be able to activate its own systems and trigger the relay.

 

Let me just point out some quick things from the wiki:

 

"However, once an organic species has settled on the Citadel and reached the required level of technological advancement, the Reapers' current vanguard, a single Reaper left behind to monitor the situation, sends a signal to the Citadel, which in turn signals the keepers, compelling them to activate the Citadel relay to dark space, and begin the process of genocide. The Protheans succeeded in altering the Citadel's signal so that the keepers ignored it, though too late to save the Protheans themselves from extinction at the hands of the Reapers. The keepers have changed and evolved so they only respond to the Citadel itself; they are now no longer under Reaper control and pose no threat to anyone."

 

If the citadel is the catalyst, the reaper AI God, why does it need a signal from a reaper vanguard to activate the relay?

 

If the protheans altered the citadel signal than it means it altered the catalyst, the reaper god AI, since the catalyst is the citadel OS. It didn't notice this change for 50k years?

 

The keepers evolved to only respond to the citadel. But wait, the catalyst IS the citadel. So they respond only to the catalyst. Yet the catalyst can't turn on the relays.

 

The keepers are no longer under reaper control but now they answer directly to the citadel which is the catalyst which is the reaper AI god.

 

 

Are you beginning to understand my issue with the catalyst?

 

The catalyst doesn't allude that its just projecting itself on the citadel like other reapers have done in the past. No, they actually had the catalyst specifically say that the citadel is a part of it. Not just that its projecting itself there.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I never will be able to grasp your hyper-love mindset with ME3's ending. Loving the original and hating EC? Whatever for? EC doesn't change anything about the original ending. It only elaborates upon it. If you already liked the ending EC did nothing to change it. It just gives you more. Now if someone was a diehard IT fan I can see why they'd hate EC since it does make strides in disproving that little "theory". Still, why would someone who liked the original hate extended cut?

 

He goes on about 'structure' and people not reading. Sometimes I think he's some sort of BSN poltergeist who exists to rile people up. I've never seen him make an actual argument and he seems to mostly insult people. I would be legitimately interested to hear an actual explanation but by this point I'm starting to doubt it exists.

[WizzyWarlock]

If the citadel is the catalyst, the reaper AI God, why does it need a signal from a reaper vanguard to activate the relay?
 
If the protheans altered the citadel signal than it means it altered the catalyst, the reaper god AI, since the catalyst is the citadel OS. It didn't notice this change for 50k years?
 
The keepers evolved to only respond to the citadel. But wait, the catalyst IS the citadel. So they respond only to the catalyst. Yet the catalyst can't turn on the relays.
 
The keepers are no longer under reaper control but now they answer directly to the citadel which is the catalyst which is the reaper AI god.
 
 
Are you beginning to understand my issue with the catalyst?
 
The catalyst doesn't allude that its just projecting itself on the citadel like other reapers have done in the past. No, they actually had the catalyst specifically say that the citadel is a part of it. Not just that its projecting itself there.

This is exactly why I think that whole scene is going on inside Shepard's head, just like the Leviathan can do. Harbinger was right outside the Citadel, Harbinger was the first Reaper and Harbinger was created using the Leviathan, so I don't really see it as a huge jump that he can do more than just indoctrinate, but use the same ability the Leviathan had of making a dreamscape inside Shepards head. I think the three choices are just options on the console that Shepard was approaching, the three options portrayed in game are symbolic interpretations of it.

On topic, I think it falls apart as soon as Shepard meets the starbrat. Firstly, the Catalyst says the Citadel is a part of it. So if it is the intelligence, why did it tie itself to the Citadel? The Citadel was created after multiple harvests to lead civilizations down a pre-determined path. It had to exist somewhere before then. Which, going back to my first comment, is very likely inside the first Reaper so it has free movement - thus, Harbinger is also the intelligence.

Secondly, and this one bugs me the most. This intelligence has been performing these cycles for billions of years, it has learnt from each (apparently) and has an understanding far beyond our own. And yet it's asking a human, something which exists for the blink of an eye in comparison to its life, to make the decision on how to deal with the problem. Why? What? Wait, huh? Are you serious? The 'intelligence' has never been able to find a real solution, it's flapped around for billions of years harvesting civilizations as if that somehow helps, and now it can't even make a critical decision based on millennia of research?

Yeah, just hit Destroy on that thing. It's better off gone.

[SilJeff]

The catalyst never said it was the Citadel. It only said the Citadel was part of it. The Leviathans made the Catalyst. The reapers built the citadel later.

 

 

Am I a prosthetic leg if I attach one to me? That's the way I see it. The Citadel is nothing more than a prosthetic that came later, and that still allows for what the first game talked about to happen [Protheans severing a connection between the Keepers and the Citadel]

[RatThing]

It doesn't fall apart because of the way I see the catalyst. It is not the messenger of gods, it's a mashine that is flawed and makes mistakes. Yes, a lot of what it said didn't make sence to me, but that doesn't necessarily mean the ending doesn`t make sence. It just means that I have the freedom to reject its message and I can do it by picking destroy. This is the choice where I get to say that we don't need its solutions. I think that the ending was made deliberately ambiguous and that you can actually decide for yourself whether the message from the catalyst is right or wrong (which is not a bad thing).

 

 

I just can't help but feel it should've been more of a debate and using the dialogue wheel to counterargue ethics and logic than taking his logic at face value and then going through with his programmed solutions.

 

Not to be able to voice your opinion or to despute the message given to you is an enormous problem of the whole game. I cannot count the moments where I wanted my Shepard to act differently or to say something differnt (or something at all). Many times I had the feeling that logical dialogue options were deliberately left out because they didn`t fit in the agenda. Are you really suprised that the ending is no different?

To be fair it actually makes most sence here, because while Shepard is having this philosophical debate, the Reapers are destroying ship after ship, taking life after life (as can be seen in the background). I think I'd rather simply listen to what my options are and then end the carnage as soon as possible. The important thing that EC actually adds is that now, for every choice you get you also get to say that you won`t make this choice, that it is a bad choice. That'll have to do.