304 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

They should've addressed why Earth was being the main focus a bit more directly IMO, like explain that Earth is being hit most hard because it has the biggest population or like we all suspect that the Reapers have targeted humanity after our continuous sabotaging of their plans in ME1 and ME2 and not "Earth is being attacked because mainstream gamers can relate", which is how I took it especially when Shepard multiple times says "Earth!" as if it all makes sense.

 

They did. I recall it at least one or twice, directly, in ME2.

 

The Reapers are targeting Humanity. Batarians were just their pit stop.

 

They cared much more about Earth than the Citadel this cycle.

 

Turians were also focused on because of their military presence.

 

The rest largely just got the side-assets. Oh look, a Destroyer on Tuchanka.

 

Of course, dramatically and for marketing, Earth was all "EARTHHHHHHHHHH", but we were already clued in that the Reapers were going to beeline to Earth since ME2's emphasis on targeting humans. The Collectors themselves would have likely attacked Earth before the Reapers if they had enough forces available and knew that the Council wouldn't intervene.

 

 

EDIT: On a similar note, the Crucible was hinted since at least 2011. It was only so directly in Lair of the Shadow Broker though, and in optional dialogue with Liara post-DLC-story. She was actively looking for something the Prothians left behind, I think.

You can still call the Crucible rushed though, since at least IMO, it should have been a more important component of ME2, considering the scale of such a concept.

[Linkenski]

I think as much as I dislike the focus on Earth in ME3 it's more the amount of times Shepard agrees that he wanted to stay on Earth but couldn't that really irks me. He says it to Anderson in the beginning "The fight's here!" and to James "don't you think I'd rather stay down there and fight!?", it just seems like complete nonsense to me. What are ground troopers gonna do to an unstoppable force that not even the most advanced warship in the Alliance - A Dreadnought - can even scratch?

 

I think honestly the entire plot would've worked better if the Reapers had a concentrated strike on Earth and it was the only place that was being attacked at that point in time, then every bad line of dialogue about Earth and "retake Earth" would suddenly make more sense, even if it meant that the sense of urgency would be lost and there would be no reapers to fight on Rannoch or Tuchanka.

 

...but then it would make Wrex and the Turians look like complete assholes for not lending any support... well, ****.

[Iakus]

Plus no way in hell can Earth hold out against 100,000+ Reapers.

[Vazgen]

So today I talked to Anderson and he said that Reapers are arriving in big numbers to London. This is before even meeting with Quarians. Any ideas for what did they do there?

[Linkenski]

Well, they were likely making way for the processing and moving the citadel over there. I think they only rushed it when they learned that Shepard knew about the crucible and the citadel. (which is kind of silly imo since they're afraid of the crucible, but I guess it "alters the variables" blegh)

[Vazgen]

Well, they were likely making way for the processing and moving the citadel over there. I think they only rushed it when they learned that Shepard knew about the crucible and the citadel. (which is kind of silly imo since they're afraid of the crucible, but I guess it "alters the variables" blegh)

I always thought it's TIM that tells them about the Alliance plans and only then they decide to move the Citadel. Planning to move it beforehand makes sense though, if it's a Reaper-creating construct.

[SwobyJ]

I think as much as I dislike the focus on Earth in ME3 it's more the amount of times Shepard agrees that he wanted to stay on Earth but couldn't that really irks me. He says it to Anderson in the beginning "The fight's here!" and to James "don't you think I'd rather stay down there and fight!?", it just seems like complete nonsense to me. What are ground troopers gonna do to an unstoppable force that not even the most advanced warship in the Alliance - A Dreadnought - can even scratch?

 

I think honestly the entire plot would've worked better if the Reapers had a concentrated strike on Earth and it was the only place that was being attacked at that point in time, then every bad line of dialogue about Earth and "retake Earth" would suddenly make more sense, even if it meant that the sense of urgency would be lost and there would be no reapers to fight on Rannoch or Tuchanka.

 

...but then it would make Wrex and the Turians look like complete assholes for not lending any support... well, ****.

 

Its because Shepard's body has been on Earth the whole time.

 

#IT lol

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So today I talked to Anderson and he said that Reapers are arriving in big numbers to London. This is before even meeting with Quarians. Any ideas for what did they do there?

 

They were picking the site for where the beam would be. All the reapers talked over their concerns, and when they were done, the catalyst said, "The beam will be here." And they said "yes, boss."

 

#badwriting

[themikefest]

Had the Citadel stayed in the Nebula instead of being moved, Shepard might never of made it on the Citadel to open the arms. That's fine. Bioware could come up with an excuse to use the conduit on Ilos to get on the Citadel

[Valmar]

Plus no way in hell can Earth hold out against 100,000+ Reapers.

 

Interesting thing to hear from you indeed. I seem to recall you being quite the supporter for a "conventional victory" ending. Perhaps I misjudged.

[Iakus]

Interesting thing to hear from you indeed. I seem to recall you being quite the supporter for a "conventional victory" ending. Perhaps I misjudged.

 

Any hope of a conventional victory went out the window when ME3 became about recruiting a bunch of bad@sses to protect Earth colonies rather than focusing on a way to stop the Reapers themselves.

 

It got worse when Bioware decided that the Reapers have been around for a billion years (Scifi Writers Have No Sense of Scale) and removed what few weaknesses the Reapers already had.

 

My mockery of the concept comes from the seemingly endless insistence that any non-"bittersweet" ending that doesn't involve a deus ex machina is, in fact "conventional", no different than a headlong charge into the teeth of Reaper fire (which with the beam rush is what we got anyway)

 

Edit:  In fact, with 100,000 Reapers rampaging across teh galaxy, we should have had a "critical mission failure" as soon as the Reapers blew out the window in the introduction.

 

Edit:  I should also add I find it funny that people think a "conventional victory" would be unrealistic, but space magic rewriting the DNA of the galaxy is somehow better 

[Valmar]

Edit:  I should also add I find it funny that people think a "conventional victory" would be unrealistic, but space magic rewriting the DNA of the galaxy is somehow better 

 

Funny perhaps, yes, but a small minority. Personally I have never heard anyone on this forum say synthesis was more realistic than conventional victory. In fact the thing I hear most about synthesis is how unrealistic and space-magicy it is. It's been my experience that those who claim a conventional victory would be unrealistic are also those who criticize synthesis. Hell, a lot of them criticize the crucible as a whole. It isn't like those who argue against conventional victory are all completely in favor of the ending's direction.

[Iakus]

Funny perhaps, yes, but a small minority. Personally I have never heard anyone on this forum say synthesis was more realistic than conventional victory. In fact the thing I hear most about synthesis is how unrealistic and space-magicy it is. It's been my experience that those who claim a conventional victory would be unrealistic are also those who criticize synthesis. Hell, a lot of them criticize the crucible as a whole. It isn't like those who argue against conventional victory are all completely in favor of the ending's direction.

 

Well to me, all teh Crucible functions are space magic, with arbitrary consequences.  So my thought is yeah conventonal victory would be just as unrealistic.  But at this point, what's the harm?  It's all deus ex machina anyway.

 

My own thought of a "realistic" conventional victory would have involved the Council actuaully taking Shepard seriously after ME1, and spend the next few decades or even generations researching weapons that don't involve eezo/mass effect fields/kinetic barriers, have the Reapers arrive via ftl  many many years later, with the (united)  galaxy now bristling with directed energy weapons, seriously beefed up disruptor torpedoes, hacking protocols based on Sovereign and Saren's remains, etc. 

 

And of course, keep the Reaper numbers to a few hundreds/thousands.   Not hundreds of thousands. 

 

 

That would have been a fight to see.  Of course, to do that, you wouldn't be able to play Shepard across the trilogy.  Maybe a generational story?

[themikefest]

My own thought of a "realistic" conventional victory would have involved the Council actuaully taking Shepard seriously after ME1, and spend the next few decades or even generations researching weapons that don't involve eezo/mass effect fields/kinetic barriers, have the Reapers arrive via ftl  many many years later, with the (united)  galaxy now bristling with directed energy weapons, seriously beefed up disruptor torpedoes, hacking protocols based on Sovereign and Saren's remains, etc.

Why not make a thread asking folks for their thoughts about how a conventional victory would be possible
 

And of course, keep the Reaper numbers to a few hundreds/thousands.   Not hundreds of thousands.

Still don't see where you're getting the hundreds of thousands number from

[Iakus]

Why not make a thread asking folks for their thoughts about how a conventional victory would be possible
 

*shrug*  Because I don't think it is.  Not without seriously rewriting the trilogy.  My only contention is that it's not more unrealistic than the Crucible endings.

 

 

Still don't see where you're getting the hundreds of thousands number from

Rough estimate.

 

a billion years comes from the estimated age of the Leviathan of Dis (canonically said to be a Reaper in ME3) gives us a minimum possible starting point for the cycles.  They are certainly older, as the Leviathan was not the first Reaper:  Harbinger was.

 

Assuming a harvest every 50,000 years, with one Sovereign-class Reaper per harvest, is 20,000 Reapers.

 

Then there is the destroyers  I lowball the estimate of five being made per harvest.  Low end, assuming that 1) only one destroyer is made per race and 2) there are on average only five other spacefaring races per cycle.  The current cycle has twice that, at least.  Even so, that's That's still 100,000 destroyers.

 

So 120,000 Reapers blitzing the galaxy.  Minus a few that have been lost over time.  But still a pretty conservative estimate.

[themikefest]

Assuming a harvest every 50,000 years, with one Sovereign-class Reaper per harvest, is 20,000 Reapers.

Until the relay network was built, we have no idea how much time passed between each cycle. 

[Iakus]

Until the relay network was built, we have no idea how much time passed between each cycle. 

Nor do we know how old the Reapers truly are.  I use a billion years, but they are actually older, after all.  I could use 2 billion years as a starting point.

[shepskisaac]

I don't really have an issue with the Crucible and Destroy/Control options. It's plausible within limits and rather nice concept having effort of multiple cycles add to eventual victory, not just Shep's incredible diplomatic/threathening skills. Synthesis is the big problem here and just shouldn't ever been an option at all. It's visually pretty and Adam&robo-Eve symbolism looks cool, but unlike Destroy/Control (which have been telegraphed throughout the entire game), it comes out of nowhere and it's just completly unplausible.

[Valmar]

Why not make a thread asking folks for their thoughts about how a conventional victory would be possible
 

 

A better question is "what classifies as conventional?"

 

I've observed that some uses have very, very clashing opinions on what qualifies something as conventional. In such cases the difference in opinion comes from a lack of consensus of what is conventional.

[WizzyWarlock]

The Reapers are targeting Humanity. Batarians were just their pit stop.
 
They cared much more about Earth than the Citadel this cycle.

What I find a bit odd is that the Reapers harvest all advanced civilizations, have an unlimited amount of time to do so, can't be stopped by conventional methods, yet they seem concerned and are targeting one civilization above all others. What are they hoping to achieve here? They want to make a Human Reaper for.. reasons. What's the rush? Why are they pushing so hard against Humanity?

All I can conclude is that there are no reasons, the writers probably thought it would create a more personal story. AKA - Bad Writing.

[Vazgen]

What I find a bit odd is that the Reapers harvest all advanced civilizations, have an unlimited amount of time to do so, can't be stopped by conventional methods, yet they seem concerned and are targeting one civilization above all others. What are they hoping to achieve here? They want to make a Human Reaper for.. reasons. What's the rush? Why are they pushing so hard against Humanity?

All I can conclude is that there are no reasons, the writers probably thought it would create a more personal story. AKA - Bad Writing.

It is stated that only one species get turned into a cuttlefish ship, others are considered minor and get turned into Destroyers. Humanity has proven its worth by defeating Sovereign, that's part of the reason why Collectors were building the hurr-durr Reaper. Harbinger also is quite blunt about why do they prefer humanity:

“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”

“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”

“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”

“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”

“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”

“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”

“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”

“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”

“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”

 

That comes from ME2 mess, which was the game that introduced human-centric focus and "they're going to target Earth". 

Overall, yeah, the only way the Reapers could lose is either extreme arrogance or stupidity on their part. They were made too powerful right from ME1. 

[Epyon]

It is stated that only one species get turned into a cuttlefish ship, others are considered minor and get turned into Destroyers. Humanity has proven its worth by defeating Sovereign, that's part of the reason why Collectors were building the hurr-durr Reaper. Harbinger also is quite blunt about why do they prefer humanity:
“Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.”
“Drell; useless, insufficient numbers.”
“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”
“Salarian; insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.”
“Geth; an annoyance, limited utility.”
“Krogan; sterilised race, potential wasted.”
“Turian; you are considered...too primitive.”
“Human; viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.”
“Human; viable possibility, impressive technical potential.”
“Human; viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated.”
“Human; viable possibility, great biotic potential.”
 
That comes from ME2 mess, which was the game that introduced human-centric focus and "they're going to target Earth". 
Overall, yeah, the only way the Reapers could lose is either extreme arrogance or stupidity on their part. They were made too powerful right from ME1.

What a shame, Saren was as superaggresive, emotional, technically adept, Turian biotic powerhouse and he still didn't impress them.

[von uber]

I suspect that it was due to the belief that people can't handle humanity not being the special snowflakes of the universe.
Just look at the 'what should happen to the major races' thread to see how many people want humanity to be on top, regardless of how it would actually be in universe.

I suspect that part of this may be due to cultural differences between the different countries of the posters.

[Han Shot First]

A better question is "what classifies as conventional?"

 

I've observed that some uses have very, very clashing opinions on what qualifies something as conventional. In such cases the difference in opinion comes from a lack of consensus of what is conventional.

 

The way I understand it, when people argue for a conventional victory, they are stating that they'd rather the plot involved the Reapers being defeated without the use of the superweapon.

 

Of course that wouldn't have worked for a couple reasons. The first is that it wouldn't make sense from a lore perspective considering the rather vast technological gulf between the Reapers and the Council & Terminus fleets, and it wouldn't work because it would leave the protagonist a bystander for a victory won by Admiral Hackett.

 

I think the arguments in favor of a conventional victory are mostly just residual anger over the disappointing finale of Mass Effect 3. Some were so disappointed that they reject the idea of the Crucible altogether.

 

Personally I think there was nothing wrong with the concept of the Crucible, just that's it's function was poorly written. It is an example of a good idea that was poorly executed.

[Pasquale1234]

I think they could have gone with a more conventional victory if the plotline were focused on preventing the reapers' arrival rather than having to fight them en masse.

One way to do this would be for Sovereign to escape in ME1 - so the reaper vanguard is still around, still trying to create an opening for the others to enter. In that scenario, the 'dark space' (or wherever they hang out) would have to be separated by some veil the others cannot breach until Sovereign creates an opening for them. Unless Sovereign succeeds, the other reapers will hibernate in dark space for eternity - or until their power is depleted.

At that point, Sovereign's approach is on 2 fronts: building armies via indoctrination to again attempt to take the Citadel, and a battle of attrition - taking smaller, isolated colonies one by one and perhaps creating additional destroyers as well as reaper ground troops.

The overall plot of ME2 wouldn't need to change much - though perhaps they succeeded in creating a new reaper destroyer or 2 before the collector base is destroyed (or purged).

By ME3, Sovereign has indoctrinated Cerberus, the Batarians, has maybe some merc groups and other smaller colonies under his control. Other species could still be more interested in defending their own rather than helping in a galactic-wide effort. Shepard's focus is then uniting the species, rescuing indoctrinated colonies, and gathering reaper tech for analysis to try to find a way to destroy them. Maybe they wreck a destroyer on Rannoch, and use its carcass to devise the strategy and weaponry needed to defeat the others. Major homeworlds could be invaded by reaper ground forces in sparsely populated areas, where they would immediately begin converting the local populations.

I dunno. For me, it wasn't just the 'space magic' aspect of the ending choices, but the lack of emotional catharsis. You win, but the losses are so heavy it doesn't feel like much of a victory.