304 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

The element of surprise is gone, which changes the equation. What's to prevent civilizations from simply destroying their nearest relays after word of the Reapers' arrival at the hub of the network? That's one of many concerns for the over-confident Reapers

 

Umm... "Ah, yes, 'Reapers'"  The element of suprise is still there.  The galaxy didn't do sh*t to prepare, most didn't even believe SHepard.  The equastion changed in that it took them three more years to get there, that's all.

 

Destroying the nearest relays?  Well, that Earth-Shattering "Kaboom" is a pretty good deterent.  Keep in mind the cullings go on for decades if not centuries.  Plenty of time for systems to decide if they want to go out ina blaze of glory or not.  And given how many cycles it's survived, and that it still wasn't used in this cycle, despite the topic coming up in the codex, seems to have been a pretty effective in discouraging people.

 

 

You assume they're not both, though "infinite" is of course an exaggeration. Dividing and conquering simply conserves resources and marginalizes collateral damage. Humans conduct strategic military operations all the time when they could just zerg-rush and be done with it.

 

And the Reapers don't care about conserving resources and collateral damage this time because...?

 

 

Eh, the size of the facility doesn't really matter, and that data could easily have been chalked up as inconsequential at first sight. An unused amplifier or something else. Context and foresight changes things.

 

 

The thing's a freaking power source of unparalleled output.  Yeah I think there'd be some interest in developing it.

 

 

Anyway, none of this addresses the concern about the potential repetition of the Ilos facility across time.

Who says it doesn't happen from time to time?  The difference between Ilos and the others is the next cycle managed to effectively  capitalize on it

[dreamgazer]

Umm... "Ah, yes, 'Reapers'"  The element of suprise is still there.

The galaxy knows about the Reapers now, whether it's reality or superstition.

Why would the Reapers continue to think they have the element of surprise after the defeat of the Collectors and the discovery of Space Terminator?
 

The galaxy didn't do sh*t to prepare, most didn't even believe SHepard.  The equastion changed in that it took them three more years to get there, that's all.

The second the galaxy learns that the Reapers have arrived at the Citadel, thus crippling the chain of travel, the element of surprise is beyond gone and the conditions have changed. With the Reaper attack as it is, there's still a planet that committed global suicide. Imagine if every single system knew that the Reapers are not only real, but have gained control of the Citadel and the relay network.
 

Destroying the nearest relays?  Well, that Earth-Shattering "Kaboom" is a pretty good deterent.

Is it?
 

Keep in mind the cullings go on for decades if not centuries.  Plenty of time for systems to decide if they want to go out ina blaze of glory or not.  And given how many cycles it's survived, and that it still wasn't used in this cycle, despite the topic coming up in the codex, seems to have been a pretty effective in discouraging people.

This cycle: Systems would have no idea when the Reapers would come. They don't broadcast their execution docket. They might have plenty of time, but they don't know that they have plenty of time.

Previous cycles: Systems didn't know what was coming for them until it was too late due to the covert cutting of communication, so they had no reason to blow the portal. Plus, there are plenty of dormant relays out there that lead to who-knows-what.
 

And the Reapers don't care about conserving resources and collateral damage this time because...?

Who says they don't? They were still doing pretty well for themselves without a full-blown zerg-rush, and only one planet (to our knowledge) committed seppuku amid their invasion. Everything is largely intact, something that can't be guaranteed under other conditions.
 

The thing's a freaking power source of unparalleled output.  Yeah I think there'd be some interest in developing it.

Disagreed, not with the resources required to get it into motion. "Ah yes, Reapers", remember? Developing conventional forces and countermeasures would be understandable, since they'd have application elsewhere without the arrival of the Reapers, but not a device like the Crucible.
 

Who says it doesn't happen from time to time?  The difference between Ilos and the others is the next cycle managed to effectively  capitalize on it

And you know that this cycle is different ... how? "More times than you can fathom".

[God]

Well, people nowadays tend to think that just about any trope or cliche or plot device is always a bad thing. While they can be overused, if such was the case, then the entire medium of science fiction and science fantasy would be dormant since they rely so heavily on such.

[dreamgazer]

What I find hilarious is the attempts some fans make in doing the job Bioware's writers chose not to do:- justifying the plot Macguffins and inserting them into the timeline in a way that makes sense to them. Any fan additions to lore/codex regards the Crucible design, build and function is simply an audience member head canoning justifications that the artists should have ensured were in the lore in the first place.

That's precisely what happens when anyone tolerates a hole or hand-wave in a story, and you're hard-pressed to find a piece of fiction without them, especially in this genre.

[Iakus]

The galaxy knows about the Reapers now, whether it's reality or superstition.

Why would the Reapers continue to think they have the element of surprise after the defeat of the Collectors and the discovery of Space Terminator?
 

I watch "The Walking Dead"  but if a zombie apacolypse ever really happened, I think I'd still be pretty surprised.

 

 

The second the galaxy learns that the Reapers have arrived at the Citadel, thus crippling the chain of travel, the element of surprise is beyond gone and the conditions have changed. With the Reaper attack as it is, there's still a planet that committed global suicide. Imagine if every single system knew that the Reapers are not only real, but have gained control of the Citadel and the relay network.
 

And this is different from every other time they've taken the Citadel and and crippled the chain of travel how?  This is the first place they normally attack.  The rest of the galaxy has decade or even centuries to process "The Citadel has fallen"

 

 

Is it?

 

 

How many relays have been blown up so far?  I count one.  And it was controversial to say the least.

 

 

This cycle: Systems would have no idea when the Reapers would come. They don't broadcast their execution docket. They might have plenty of time, but they don't know that they have plenty of time.

Previous cycles: Systems didn't know what was coming for them until it was too late due to the covert cutting of communication, so they had no reason to blow the portal. Plus, there are plenty of dormant relays out there that lead to who-knows-what.

 

Those are virtually identical.  WIth the added benefit of refugees escaping to other systems via ftl (some of which were indoctrinated).

 

I mean, really, Javik knew what he was fighting, even with the relays down.

 

 

Who says they don't? They were still doing pretty well for themselves without a full-blown zerg-rush, and only one planet (to our knowledge) committed seppuku amid their invasion. Everything is largely intact, something that can't be guaranteed under other conditions.

 

Conditions like what they had been doing for umpteen billion years?  They could take things more intact if they can't reinforce each toher and have clear lines of communication.

 

Hell, there is no way the Crucible could have been built with out a functioning relay network.

 

 

Disagreed, not with the resources required to get it into motion. "Ah yes, Reapers", remember? Developing conventional forces and countermeasures would be understandable, since they'd have application elsewhere without the arrival of the Reapers, but not a device like the Crucible.

And you know that this cycle is different ... how? "More times than you can fathom".

 

Researcher #1"What's this?"

Researcher #2 "Some kind of blueprint.  For a source of incalculable power!"

Researcher #1 "Cool, this could solve our energy needs for millenia!"

Researcher#2 "Problem is, this is way advanced.  We'd have to get the entire galaxy building something like this.  Heck I can barely read this thing, We'll need specialists from a dozen disciplines to get it working

Researcher#1  Meh, just leave it then.  Save your omnitool memory for...Oooh, ancient Prothean playlist!"

Researcher #2  Cool!  Send me a copy!"

[Han Shot First]

Well, people nowadays tend to think that just about any trope or cliche or plot device is always a bad thing. While they can be overused, if such was the case, then the entire medium of science fiction and science fantasy would be dormant since they rely so heavily on such.

 

This.

 

Besides how long as humanity been telling stories? Tens of thousands of years? There is no such thing as an original story anymore. There's just different ways of telling the same basic tales. 

[nos_astra]

How did ME3 change these rules? ME1 established the idea of a pattern of extinguishing civilizations at the apex of their glory "more times than you can fathom", so the idea that this has all happened before and will all happen again is already present in the narrative. That's a problem introduced by ME1's faulty internal logic, which also established that the Reapers weren't entirely thorough with their evidence wipes (yet thorough enough to get the galaxy back to an unaware state).

That's not what I meant.

ME1 established a decapitation strike that left each system isolated from the others. Not really knowing what had hit them before it was their turn to be smoothified or blown up.

I always figured that those who knew about the Reapers were pretty much busy trying not to instantly die and those lucky enough to be in a system not yet under attack remained mostly blissfully ignorant about what was going on.

The Crucible left me really confused about when and how anyone had found the ressources and the knowledge to bother trying to create or improve on a superweapon.

ME1 violated the premise of Reaper arrival equals no relay network equals no communication or travel outside your own system: I thought the prothean beacons and Ilos were unique. An exception. An extremely powerful cycle that managed to throw a wrench into the Reapers' plans to give the next cycle a chance.

Then ME3 came up with the idea that each cycle essentially had beacons and built their own relay networks. Because how else would they learn enough about the Reapers and the Citadel to build anything resembling a weapon?

I'm overthinking this.

[dreamgazer]

I watch "The Walking Dead"  but if a zombie apacolypse ever really happened, I think I'd still be pretty surprised.

False equivalence, both in the scale of the subject and the situation itself.
 

And this is different from every other time they've taken the Citadel and and crippled the chain of travel how?  This is the first place they normally attack.  The rest of the galaxy has decade or even centuries to process "The Citadel has fallen"

"The Citadel has fallen to the Reapers", you mean, which changes just about everything.
 

How many relays have been blown up so far?  I count one.  And it was controversial to say the least.

... okay?
 

Those are virtually identical.

No, they're not.
 

Conditions like what they had been doing for umpteen billion years?  They could take things more intact if they can't reinforce each toher and have clear lines of communication.

Except for the whole knowing about the Reapers thing.
 

Hell, there is no way the Crucible could have been built with out a functioning relay network.

Probably not, but then we wouldn't have a story, just like we wouldn't have a story had Saren used his Spectre status properly to open the darkspace relay.
 

Researcher #1"What's this?"
Researcher #2 "Some kind of blueprint.  For a source of incalculable power!"
Researcher #1 "Cool, this could solve our energy needs for millenia!"
Researcher#2 "Problem is, this is way advanced. We'd have to get the entire galaxy building something like this. Heck I can barely read this thing, We'll need specialists from a dozen disciplines to get it working
Researcher#1 Meh, just leave it then. Save your omnitool memory for...Oooh, ancient Prothean playlist!"
Researcher #2 Cool! Send me a copy!"

Amusing, but yes, I firmly believe this galaxy would file resource-costly blueprints flagged as being a super-weapon against mythical or theoretical space-Cthulhu in the "archives" section.
 

Dreamgazer chose to ridicule the argument instead of addressing the point.

Not so much ridiculing the argument as stating a fact about fiction. The number of stories that would fall apart without creative deduction from the audience, whether it's classic or contemporary fiction, is astronomical.

[Iakus]

False equivalence, both in the scale of the subject and the situation itself.
 

Not at all.  If nobody believes in something, then they'll be surprised when it appears.  Be it Reapers, zombies, or Santa Clause.

 

 

 

"The Citadel has fallen to the Reapers", you mean, which changes just about everything.

 

 

...um, no it doesn't?  The Citadel has fallen.  THe relays are shut down.  What difference does it make what you call the enemy?

 

 

 

... okay?
 

Nobody destroys relays, even when they know how it can be done.  The destruction it causes is simply too great.

 

 

 

 

Except for the whole knowing about the Reapers thing.
 

Again, so what?  What do they know about the Reapers that makes it pointless to shut down the relays and isolate each system?  All they could possibly do is commit suicide by relay. And that is a highly unlikely possibility.  The Protheans fought to the bitter end, after all.

 

 

 

Probably not, but then we wouldn't have a story, just like we wouldn't have a story had Saren used his Spectre status properly to open the darkspace relay.
 

I'm still not convinced Saren knew about the Keeper problem that early in the story.  

 

 

 

Amusing, but yes, I firmly believe this galaxy would file a resource-costly device flagged as being a super-weapon against mythical or theoretical space-Cthulhu in the "archives" section.
 

 

Like they wouldn't at least make copies of that information and store it offsite?  I mean, if Hackett could have called up a copy Liara could compare it with, it might have saved a lot of trouble.

 

Or Heck, Liara could have gone through those files on her tablet on the Presidium, and Ash/Kaidan wouldn't have gotten their skulls cracked on Mars to begin with. 

[Malanek]

A McGuffin is simply a plot device that the protagonist (or someone) seeks. That's it. So well the crucible is a McGuffin there is also a bit more than that and that is where the problem lies. It's an unexplained solution to an unsolvable problem and such devices are not usually particularly creative or fulfilling. It would have been better imo if building such a thing simply gave you an edge so that a conventional victory was possible, or that it only half solved the problem. I would have preferred that it broke indoctrination setting half the reapers insane. Or acted as a trap luring most of them in close so you could blow a relay up. Or if it was just a massive floating cannon. I didn't like the fact that the main plot revolved around it. Virtually nothing else you did mattered.

 

But I still liked the vast majority of the ME3 story. Even though the main plot was pretty average the secondary plots were very good and the entire story was dripping with emotion. The ending to me was only a disappointment because there was no emotion and too much of it didn't make sense. I do think the extended cut was a big improvement. I still wouldn't have liked the main plot but I don't think it would have been a big issue if I had seen the extended cut ending first.

[dreamgazer]

Not at all.  If nobody believes in something, then they'll be surprised when it appears.  Be it Reapers, zombies, or Santa Clause.

Zombies or Santa Claus didn't almost destroy the White House or the Capitol in real life.

Nor are they miles high, shoot lasers, and look like Lovecraftian horrors.
 

...um, no it doesn't?  The Citadel has fallen.  THe relays are shut down.  What difference does it make what you call the enemy?

Because these are the once-fabled space-Cthulhu that wiped out the Protheans?

There are enemies, and then there are predators. No shame in respecting the prowess of your antagonist.
 

Nobody destroys relays, even when they know how it can be done.

That's a mighty absolute proclamation.
 

The destruction it causes is simply too great.

Not when it saves countless other lives, and not if they're prepared.
 

Again, so what?  What do they know about the Reapers that makes it pointless to shut down the relays and isolate each system? All they could possibly do is commit suicide by relay. And that is a highly unlikely possibility.  The Protheans fought to the bitter end, after all.

Yep, they could destroy the relay to protect everyone else outside the blast, or destroy themselves. And no, that isn't highly unlikely. If something dangerous is coming, you slam the door and lock it behind you.
 

I'm still not convinced Saren knew about the Keeper problem that early in the story.

There's no reason he wouldn't, outside of writer's fiat. Point still stands.
 

Like they wouldn't at least make copies of that information and store it offsite?

If they didn't see it worth the time to do a manual data translation of obscenely complex blueprints, instead of simply reading the information and letting the encrypted info live in the archives, it's entirely likely they wouldn't.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Mars Archives not being fully explored for decades and then suddenly they discover the Crucible? I'm not buying it. One would think that our pro-Earth, and "we want a seat on the Council NOW" government, and trying to play catch up with the other races would be fully exploring every nook and cranny of that archive. Not so. Conveniently that Crucible thing pops up hours after the Reapers invade. Can we say give me a break?

 

And to top it off, the location of the Thessia Archives is sitting staring everyone right in the face and no one seems to notice. I know... blah blah blah blah blah good is dumb, for without that Mac couldn't have turned Cerberus into a galactic superpower. But The Illusive Man finding that in the Mars Archives and saying he did on Thessia was something Mac pulled out of his ass. How could Liara have missed it? I know I know ... good is dumb. It's what this story is based upon. And Shepard being the moron that he/she was helped The Illusive Man stockpile Prothean artifacts throughout ME2. Also in ME3, the best armor and weapons were made by Cerberus so if you wanted to use them you were funding The Illusive Man's campaign against you.

 

ME2 - Sorry Admiral Anderson, I can't come back to the Alliance because I owe The Illusive Man and Cerberus for bringing me back to life even though I know working for them is treason. It's just for some stupid plot so I can star in this action movie right now and blow up a bunch of stuff. Don't worry. I'll be back in the next movie. This said the game was fun to play especially as a renegon. A bullet in the head solves everything. I know that now.

 

There are enough plot  inconsistencies in this story to make your head hurt. Don't think about them too hard. You might slip and fall into one of the giant plot holes.

[KaiserShep]

Nobody destroys relays, even when they know how it can be done.  The destruction it causes is simply too great.

 

I would think that it's more a matter of the relays being far too vital as a component of the galactic community's infrastructure, since even if destroying a relay didn't result in a nova-like explosion, whoever is in that cluster now has no choice but to live there. It would take quite an extreme circumstance to have few options other than destroying a piece of the galactic superhighway without a means to replicate it.

[Iakus]

I would think that it's more a matter of the relays being far too vital as a component of the galactic community's infrastructure, since even if destroying a relay didn't result in a nova-like explosion, whoever is in that cluster now has no choice but to live there. It would take quite an extreme circumstance to have few options other than destroying a piece of the galactic superhighway without a means to replicate it.

Well that too.  But I'm pretty sure blowing up a solar system, possibly your homeworld, plays a factor too 

[Iakus]

Okay this took three tries to post, so gonna be brief:

 

Zombies or Santa Claus didn't almost destroy the White House or the Capitol in real life.

Nor are they miles high, shoot lasers, and look like Lovecraftian horrors.
 

 

Reapers don't exist either, remember?

 

"Ah, yes, 'Reapers'"

 

 

 

 
Yep, they could destroy the relay to protect everyone else outside the blast, or destroy themselves. And no, that isn't highly unlikely. If something dangerous is coming, you slam the door and lock it behind you.

How exactly does blowing up a solar system by destroying a piece of indestructible tech saving lives?  Especially if said tech is in your home system?

 

 

 

There's no reason he wouldn't, outside of writer's fiat. Point still stands.
 

 

He wouldn't if his visions were as screwed up as Shepard's, and needed all the other stuff Shep spends the game tracking down.

 

 

If they didn't see it worth the time to do a manual data translation of obscenely complex blueprints, instead of simply reading the information and letting the encrypted info live in the archives, it's entirely likely they wouldn't.

 

You mean the obscenely complex Prothean blueprints?  They wouldn't want copies sent around to their best and brightest to ooh and ah over?  The same people who soil themselves over a piece of broken tech that gets dug up on a farming colony?

 

Also, data translation which Liara did that took less than a minute using her omnitool? 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And if we had blown up the mass relay even with all the reapers in the system and were willing to sacrifice the planet, I'm sure that the writers would have made the reapers immune to the effects just for lols.

[Iakus]

And if we had blown up the mass relay even with all the reapers in the system and were willing to sacrifice the planet, I'm sure that the writers would have made the reapers immune to the effects just for lols.

Yup.

 

Because THEY CANNOT BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!!! OH NOES!!!

[angol fear]

Yup.

 

Because THEY CANNOT BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!!! OH NOES!!!

 

You should really play the entire trilogy, you'll see that it's true and that the writers never wanted one for their game.

 

 

 

And for the Mc Guffin, if i understand those who dislike it in Mass Effect (which is a post modernist game since the first one), a cliché isn't a problem if it is "skillfully used and plotted through the script and justified in the extended background lore". But a cliché still a cliché even if it is written this way. A Mc guffin still a Mc guffin. But it's better if we don't feel it like a Mc guffin? The problem is that what makes it interesting isn't that, it's how it is used. I mean those who think that can't watch Tsui Hark's movies or Takashi Mike's one. That's not the illusion of integration of that tool that matters, it's how it is used. Some use it to be obviously cliché/ Mc Guffin and Mass Effect did that. The writing of the crucible is really interesting if we know what is post modernism, if we understand how they used it.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yeah, we know that. We know they wanted to give us the ending from hell. They could have ended it right after Anderson died and had Shepard die and the Crucible blow up the reapers. I would have been satisfied. It would have been an epic ending, but then just had to have Starbrat explain sh*t.

[AlanC9]

The driving motivation for that choice I believe stemmed from the infamous "Speculations for Everyone" aspect of the design. A design choice which I hope has left the building and no longer has a chance to tarnish the future of a franchise that had enormous potential

I don't think this gets the causality quite right. I bet "speculation for everyone" actually came in relatively late in the design process. Bio seems to have always been planning to go the superweapon route, no doubt for the same reason that Wing Commander 3 and several Star Wars installments did -- the hero needs to destroy the enemy with personal action. Making the superweapon be alien and incomprehensible is a pretty recognizable trope; didn't the Stargate series have five or six of the things? Once you know you're going that route, you can can then put off a lot of the exposition until later since most of the game won't need it, and you'll never need comprehensive Codex entries because they wouldn't exist in-universe.

The problem with putting stuff off until later, of course, is that sooner or later later becomes now.

[dreamgazer]

Reapers don't exist either, remember?

"Ah, yes, 'Reapers'"

The Illusive Man, Jondum Bau, and plain old common sense proves that the Council doesn't speak for everyone all the time, especially in moments of desperation. Their arrival at the Citadel would be confirmation of the truth introduced by Sovereign's invasion.

How exactly does blowing up a solar system by destroying a piece of indestructible tech saving lives? Especially if said tech is in your home system?

FTL evacuation to an adjacent system, as well as preservation of everything else outside the relay blast radius.

The ramifications also aren't really known about the brute-force destruction of the relays, since nobody in this cycle had tried it before the Alpha relay, nor had any reason to. That roll of the dice will seem appealing with the impending arrival of the Reapers, though.

He wouldn't if his visions were as screwed up as Shepard's, and needed all the other stuff Shep spends the game tracking down.

How does he even know to go after the Conduit then, and why? It's not THAT literal of a MacGuffin.

Moreover, why would Sovereign let him run his Spectre status into the ground instead of properly utilizing it and avoiding this contrived backdoor scenario to resolve his problem?

You mean the obscenely complex Prothean blueprints? They wouldn't want copies sent around to their best and brightest to ooh and ah over? The same people who soil themselves over a piece of broken tech that gets dug up on a farming colony?

Maybe, maybe not. They are, after all, merely blueprints that are safely encrypted at their source location. Not a big deal to access them, but a substantial deal to replicate them. Also depends on how much access they're granted to duplicate and distribute those materials, since the galaxy's so keen on preserving the peace.

Also, data translation which Liara did that took less than a minute using her omnitool?

Liara had access to that data for much longer than that.

[Linkenski]

Personally I think the idea of the crucible is good enough, but it would need to have been introduced differently and perhaps a little bit later than the overwhelming (and poorly done) first impression both from newcomers and fans, that the reapers are in the galaxy in brute strength and not even 2 hours into the game someone tells us "we found the only way to defeat the reapers".

There was also a part of the plot flowchart from Final Hours that wasn't in the game where apparently on Cerberus HQ Vendetta was supposed to inform you that firing the crucible would throw the galaxy into galactic dark age... of course, this bit was removed because it didn't make sense for Vendetta to know the function of the crucible.

But I think that just goes to show that Bioware was trying to figure their own mess out just as much as the characters in the game are and it just comes together in such a clumsy way IMO.