304 réponses à ce sujet

[von uber]

Well based on my first ever playthrough which to put this into context was:

 

- In Nov 2013 and consisted of ME1, ME2 with Arrival and LotSB, and ME3 with all DLC

- Played through in one go over a week or so

- With no prior knowledge of Mass Effect nor any inkling about the ending saga - was a Steam sale impulse buy and I didn't want anything spoilered

 

The first time I was worried was the start of ME2 and the death of Shep and subsequent working for Cerberus. I eventually ended up rolling with it due to the rather good squad quests and locations. The second instance was the human reaper. That raised an eyebrow and broke the immersion completely (I remember actually laughing out loud).

The intro of ME3 (after fixing the face import - way to ruin the immersion from the start there) was also troubling. It seemed rushed and incoherent (although I still love Leaving Earth). After the McGuffin was introduced I largely forgot most of the problems as I was buoyed along with the story and sense of emotion it has.

It was Thessia really where things started to go awry. From this point on it seemed really rushed and lacking in detail and explanation.

Priority Earth was really, really disappointing but having got through that and to the confrontation with TIM, I was happy enough.

 

Then the lift happened, and I ended up joining here to try and work out what the hell I had just seen.

[Iakus]

The story began to fall apart for me in ME2 when Shepard is caught in an explosion, spaced, smacked with a planet, and is resurrected with SCIENCE! ANd it goes completely without explanation and almost entirely without comment.

 

But if you're talking just ME3, well, I guess it's right after Mars, when the Normandy arrives at the Citadel and it hasn't fallen to, or at least under siege by the Reapers

[Pasquale1234]

Instead of always coming back every 10k years and fixing a problem that keeps occurring why not just come back and prevent the problem from ever showing up in the first place. The thing about synthetic conflict is that it is a controllable factor. Organics fighting against organics? Nothing much you can do about that, its nature. Synthetics however? They're not natural. They're a variable that you can completely remove from the table. The solution to this conflict is rather simple, really. Just don't make synthetics. Synthetics are not a natural phenomenon. So if you want to keep synthetics from wiping out all organics... don't build synthetics.

Indeed.

Yet the reapers remove all signs of the previous cycle's harvest, and go into hiding between harvests. Apparently, it never occurs to them that a bit of friendly advice could prevent the need for another round of galactic genocide.

[SilJeff]

The catalyst is apart of the citadel. In the same sense EDI is apart of the Normandy.

Your prosthetic leg analogy does not suit the context, imo. We are organics. The catalyst is an AI. We're drastically different. It isn't like a human strapping on a plastic arm and saying "now I have a hand!" It's an AI. Any system it integrates itself to becomes it. Legion's body is technically not Legion, either. Its just a platform that carries the legion programs around. The platform is just "a part" of Legion. Yet it still has full control over the body. The catalyst, the AI reaper god, is the citadel yet it has no control over its basic functions? It isn't even like it was built without control, either, since the citadel is a reaper construction.

The catalyst built the citadel and installed itself into it and yet didn't give itself admin privileges? It needs to have a vanguard reaper to monitor everything and send the signal to activate ITSELF (as it is the citadel)? What?

None of it makes any sense.

I only used the prosthetic analogy in the sense that a prosthetic is an attachment that comes later, not something you are born/created with. A prosthetic leg would come later, just like the citadel came later as a part for the catalyst. I could also make the analogy of is a computer nothing but an optical drive if the computer out of the box didn't have one and you just install one? No. It is still just an accessory. The computer doesn't require the optical drive to work like the catalyst doesnt need the citadel (judging by how the leviathans built the catalyst without the citadel)

Legion can go to a different body if it needed to. The same can be said of the Catalyst. A geth mobile platform is nothing more than a glorified prosthetic.

As for the connection loss, just because something has control doesn't mean that the connection can't be severed. The catalyst and the citadel are powerful, but neither is invincible. If it can't connect I don't see why needing someone to come play geek squad and come out to fix the connection is such an impossible thing to picture.

[Linkenski]

Well based on my first ever playthrough which to put this into context was:

 

- In Nov 2013 and consisted of ME1, ME2 with Arrival and LotSB, and ME3 with all DLC

- Played through in one go over a week or so

- With no prior knowledge of Mass Effect nor any inkling about the ending saga - was a Steam sale impulse buy and I didn't want anything spoilered

 

The first time I was worried was the start of ME2 and the death of Shep and subsequent working for Cerberus. I eventually ended up rolling with it due to the rather good squad quests and locations. The second instance was the human reaper. That raised an eyebrow and broke the immersion completely (I remember actually laughing out loud).

The intro of ME3 (after fixing the face import - way to ruin the immersion from the start there) was also troubling. It seemed rushed and incoherent (although I still love Leaving Earth). After the McGuffin was introduced I largely forgot most of the problems as I was buoyed along with the story and sense of emotion it has.

It was Thessia really where things started to go awry. From this point on it seemed really rushed and lacking in detail and explanation.

Priority Earth was really, really disappointing but having got through that and to the confrontation with TIM, I was happy enough.

 

Then the lift happened, and I ended up joining here to try and work out what the hell I had just seen.

Sometimes I envy you post-2012 players. ME3 was such a disappointment without the DLC, not to mention Shepard being cross-eyed in every 3rd conversation or breaking his neck. Admittedly I didn't prefer Destroy over Synthesis and Control back then and EC made those two completely undesireable IMO, but still, the ending was like a punch in the stomach and now it's just... just digestible and fulfilling while still leaving me with a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Valmar]

I only used the prosthetic analogy in the sense that a prosthetic is an attachment that comes later, not something you are born/created with. A prosthetic leg would come later, just like the citadel came later as a part for the catalyst. I could also make the analogy of is a computer nothing but an optical drive if the computer out of the box didn't have one and you just install one? No. It is still just an accessory. The computer doesn't require the optical drive to work like the catalyst doesnt need the citadel (judging by how the leviathans built the catalyst without the citadel)

Legion can go to a different body if it needed to. The same can be said of the Catalyst. A geth mobile platform is nothing more than a glorified prosthetic.

As for the connection loss, just because something has control doesn't mean that the connection can't be severed. The catalyst and the citadel are powerful, but neither is invincible. If it can't connect I don't see why needing someone to come play geek squad and come out to fix the connection is such an impossible thing to picture.

 

Yes the catalyst existed without the citadel. I still think you're missing the point. The catalyst is not just some harddrive. It is the operating system. It's an AI. It is the data. It is the program. It is the software. My computer doesn't NEED a graphics card to work. Yet when I attach one to it my computer now has a large range of control over it. I can can control its fan speed, its clock and memory speed. Even the amount of power it gets. For all extensive purposes, my pc has control. Because that is how smart technology integrates. It becomes one.

 

Nothing at all like organics. You attach a fake limb to someones body, it isn't suddenly a limb. You can't do anything with it. It's just kinda hanging there. I can attach any number of components to a PC and they will become part of it and gain full control. Software controls the hardware.

 

Yes, Legion can go into a different body. The point is that whatever body it takes over for all practical purposes, IS Legion. The programs that make up Legion have full and complete control over the form they upload to. Because they are software, they control the hardware. The catalyst is software. It built the citadel and integrated itself into it. Yet it has no access to its basic system functions? It's the Citadel OS! How does it NOT have control? What kind of sense does it make for an artificial intelligence to not have control of a machine it built around it?

 

Can the connection be lost? Sure. Why then does the citadel function at all, though? Without an operating system your computer is essentially useless. If I was to remove your CPU your computer would no longer function, even if the other components are still in working order. Severing the connection of the OS would render the system useless. You need to have that connection for any part of it to function, practically speaking. Even if this was the case however why would it need a vanguard? What purpose does it serve that the catalyst, the citadel OS, shouldn't already be able to handle itself?

[Vazgen]

I'm not sure where is it stated that the Catalyst is the Citadel OS?

[Valmar]

I'm not sure where is it stated that the Catalyst is the Citadel OS?

 

It doesn't explicitly state it anywhere. Though it would be if its both the citadel and the AI Reaper God. Which it claims to be. Even EDI had control of the Normandy systems. Why would the catalyst be powerless to control part of its own body that it itself built for its housing?

[Winterking]

Sometimes I envy you post-2012 players. ME3 was such a disappointment without the DLC, not to mention Shepard being cross-eyed in every 3rd conversation or breaking his neck. Admittedly I didn't prefer Destroy over Synthesis and Control back then and EC made those two completely undesireable IMO, but still, the ending was like a punch in the stomach and now it's just... just digestible and fulfilling while still leaving me with a sour taste in my mouth.

 

 

Probably the reason I don't feel disappointed as some of you about the entire trilogy. Since I played the trilogy for the first time last year and I did it with every major DLC installed including the Extended Cut I don't have the strong feelings about the ending that some of you have. The ending sucks even with the EC, but I don't feel it ruined the entire trilogy. Hell the first thing I did after my first playthrough was starting another trilogy run.

 

In end, I'm glad I gave a shot to the trilogy almost two years after ME3 release. Playing each game back to back with DLCs installed made for an awesome gaming experience IMO.

[Valmar]

In end, I'm glad I gave a shot to the trilogy almost two years after ME3 release. Playing each game back to back with DLCs installed made for an awesome gaming experience IMO.

 

And yet, even with the release of the so-called "Trilogy Collection" they STILL haven't packaged the entire series with all its content into a single purchasable item. It'd be so nice, imo, if they just gave us a "COMPLETE Trilogy Collection" that actually has the entire series of content.

[Teddie Sage]

Right after Shepard and his crew gets hit by the laser beam. The rest afterwards is just dog poo.

[SwobyJ]

And yet, even with the release of the so-called "Trilogy Collection" they STILL haven't packaged the entire series with all its content into a single purchasable item. It'd be so nice, imo, if they just gave us a "COMPLETE Trilogy Collection" that actually has the entire series of content.

 

If they don't do this with the next gen release, I'll be not just saddened or disappointed, but even outright mocking of Bioware. And I don't typically do that.

[Vazgen]

It might simply be because the Catalyst is installed in an isolated section of the Citadel, without revealing its existence to anyone. No control means no way to trace the energy to its source.

I think there is a wordplay in "the Citadel is a part of me" statement.

"Where am I?"

"The Citadel. It's my home." - the Citadel is the place where the intelligence is installed

"Who are you?"

"I'm the Catalyst" - it is the required catalyst for the solution 

(which it indirectly confirms later 

"You said you’re the Catalyst but what are you?"

"A construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem. I was created to bring balance. To be the Catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.")

"I thought the Citadel is the Catalyst?"

"No. The Citadel is part of me" - the citadel is a part of the required catalyst for the solution since it is required for the Crucible's operation and/or creating a new Reaper as evidenced by Shepard and Anderson

("Reminds me of your description of the Collector base."

"Makes sense."

"You don't think they're building a Reaper in here, do you?"

"Sure. They round them up on Earth, then bring them here for processing.")

[themikefest]

If they don't do this with the next gen release, I'll be not just saddened or disappointed, but even outright mocking of Bioware. And I don't typically do that.

If they don't, it won't bother me. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Indeed.

Yet the reapers remove all signs of the previous cycle's harvest, and go into hiding between harvests. Apparently, it never occurs to them that a bit of friendly advice could prevent the need for another round of galactic genocide.

 

But they leave "GoPro" cameras called Reaper Artifacts laying about because they apparently threw ravers after each round of galactic genocide.

[SwobyJ]

If they don't, it won't bother me. 

 

I won't be bothered in itself since I'm not even getting it. I'd be more saddened etc at the people involved with making that choice in EA/Bioware, as its just so illustrative of their priorities.

[Urizen]

It might simply be because the Catalyst is installed in an isolated section of the Citadel, without revealing its existence to anyone. No control means no way to trace the energy to its source.

I think there is a wordplay in "the Citadel is a part of me" statement.

"Where am I?"

"The Citadel. It's my home." - the Citadel is the place where the intelligence is installed

"Who are you?"

"I'm the Catalyst" - it is the required catalyst for the solution 

(which it indirectly confirms later 

"You said you’re the Catalyst but what are you?"

"A construct. An intelligence designed eons ago to solve a problem. I was created to bring balance. To be the Catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.")

"I thought the Citadel is the Catalyst?"

"No. The Citadel is part of me" - the citadel is a part of the required catalyst for the solution since it is required for the Crucible's operation and/or creating a new Reaper as evidenced by Shepard and Anderson

("Reminds me of your description of the Collector base."

"Makes sense."

"You don't think they're building a Reaper in here, do you?"

"Sure. They round them up on Earth, then bring them here for processing.")

 

That´s how I tend to see it as well. A common trait amongst organics is curiosity. One race sooner or later is bound to dissect the citadel and thus it´s highly likely that the catalyst will be found. Only way to avoid that: Hide! And that is what the catalyst most likely did. It can possibly only come out of hiding once the Citadel´s relay is activated, for which it relies on the keepers. That would also explain the vanguard left behind.

[SwobyJ]

This is where an in-game (not DLC) mission to investigate the Citadel would have helped. Like that rumored one with Xen (but I think that was DLC plan, the 'original' Citadel DLC).

 

Even just one significant mission that alludes to something being in the core of the Citadel, normally locked away and not even being able to interact with known Citadel systems, would have worked.

 

The more I look at earlier versions of the game, the more I think:

A)It is easier to take things directly, literally.

B)Except for indoctrination, which seemed actually even more clear in earlier versions. But it was more of the motor control variety, shown in even stuff like the novels with Grayson.

 

And the more I look at more recent content additions (the DLC plan that did get done, and the iteration of the story between the leaked script and the release version), the more I think:

A)It is easier to take things indirectly, subjectively

B)And I can't even think its just indoctrination going on, but something much much crazier (but that's just me)

 

 

Part of me wishes the first route would have happened though. No craziness. Much less confusion. Just the facts of things, laid out. Oh, there's a mission/DLC where we discover something secret in the Citadel? WELL THAT SURE WOULD HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO PLAY. AND IT SURE WOULD HAVE HELPED IN THE MEANTIME BEFORE WE MEET THE CATALYST.

[NeonFlux117]

ME3 is a big mess. Truly it is. But really things went from "oh, well that was kinda disappointing and not near ME2's or ME1's level" to.... "Holy fvck! What the fvck!" Right around I'd say Thessia. 

[SwobyJ]

ME3 is a big mess. Truly it is. But really things went from "oh, well that was kinda disappointing and not near ME2's or ME1's level" to.... "Holy fvck! What the fvck!" Right around I'd say Thessia. 

 

"Holy fvck! What the fvck!"

 

That was my reaction all through Citadel DLC the first time. Was texting my bf it as well.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

I'll teel you where it really went bad. Right after Thessia, where you're in that "conversation" with the Asari "councilor." I put conversation in quotes because that's not how it would have gone if I could control it (and councilor in quotes because after that mission, I have no- ZERO- respect for the ******). It should have gone: :For three years I've been warning you about the Reapers. Three years (might want to interject Zaeed's trademark phrase in the middle). But you ignored me, probably because I'm just a human. I don't know a thing, just an ignorant yokel playing at being a SPECTRE, from an ignorant race just playing at galactic politics. Udina was right when the rest of the galaxy (particuliarly the council) when he said 'Humanity is just a second-rate power.' When I warned you of Saren, you ignored me. When I brought Legion to the Citadel when I was preparing for my assault on the Collector base, it was partly to see if Legion confirming that Sovereign wasn't geth, you still ignored me. You didn't help until your people were under attack. Not only did you ignore me, you denied the Turians and Salarians (after I hang up with you, I'm going to call the Turian and Salarian councilors up) the information about the Reapers. I wonder if what's left of your people will enjoy the massive sanctions you will be under if we win this war. Maybe that's why you're the Asari representive. You're so stupid, if you stayed on Thessia, you'd endanger Asari culture, so you were sent away to where you could do the least amount of damage."

[SwobyJ]

I still don't get why Shepard couldn't have busted the Council.

 

I'm not even asking to be as mean as '[Disconnect]' in ME1 here. Geez.

 

I'd love to know their reasoning.

[KonguZya]

It fell apart as soon as people actually chose Control and Synthesis. Destroy+Shepard's speech in the "refuse" ending, mixed in with a bit of Indoctrination Theory is my (head?)canon ending.

[KaiserShep]

Sometimes I envy you post-2012 players. ME3 was such a disappointment without the DLC, not to mention Shepard being cross-eyed in every 3rd conversation or breaking his neck. Admittedly I didn't prefer Destroy over Synthesis and Control back then and EC made those two completely undesireable IMO, but still, the ending was like a punch in the stomach and now it's just... just digestible and fulfilling while still leaving me with a sour taste in my mouth.

 

Lol, man I feel lucky being a latecomer. I've only ever experienced the original ending on YouTube, after I completed the game.

[Valmar]

That´s how I tend to see it as well. A common trait amongst organics is curiosity. One race sooner or later is bound to dissect the citadel and thus it´s highly likely that the catalyst will be found. Only way to avoid that: Hide! And that is what the catalyst most likely did. It can possibly only come out of hiding once the Citadel´s relay is activated, for which it relies on the keepers. That would also explain the vanguard left behind.

 

You both work off the assumption that the catalyst would have to be completely separated from the citadel for to remain hidden. A stance I firmly and strongly disagree with. They can physically observe the keepers (and do, with cameras) and see them interacting with the citadel. How is that more stealthy than having the entire system OS secretly being sentient? How are they going to notice an AI in the system with the system IS THE AI? What kind of sense does it make that something so intelligent couldn't hide its presence? Even EDI could hide it to a degree and she was constantly interacting with the organics on board, drawing attention to herself.

 

Even assuming it did however why would it build itself with no root admin access? It has no backdoor? It built it but decided to design it in such a way that it itself cannot actually access it but some random reaper vanguard can? It didn't notice that a bunch of protheans changed its body after the cycle was complete? I went into more depth with this particular subject here so that's all I'll say about in here.