304 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

You both work off the assumption that the catalyst would have to be completely separated from the citadel for to remain hidden. A stance I firmly and strongly disagree with. They can physically observe the keepers (and do, with cameras) and see them interacting with the citadel. How is that more stealthy than having the entire system OS secretly being sentient? How are they going to notice an AI in the system with the system IS THE AI? What kind of sense does it make that something so intelligent couldn't hide its presence? Even EDI could hide it to a degree and she was constantly interacting with the organics on board, drawing attention to herself.

Even assuming it did however why would it build itself with no root admin access? It has no backdoor? It built it but decided to design it in such a way that it itself cannot actually access it but some random reaper vanguard can? It didn't notice that a bunch of protheans changed its body after the cycle was complete? I went into more depth with this particular subject here so that's all I'll say about in here.

Except Traynor figured EDI out in 6 months. Organics that have the technology for space travel and can create AI will notice that the station OS is much more complex than what is required for the station's operation.
More, the Citadel was built by the Reapers. It wouldn't have existed without them and thus can't be the intelligence, since the intelligence created the Reapers.
The intelligence controls the Reapers and, therefore, the vanguard who sends the signal that activates the relay to the dark space. Through the Reapers and the keepers it had full control of the station.

[Valmar]

Except Traynor figured EDI out in 6 months. Organics that have the technology for space travel and can create AI will notice that the station OS is much more complex than what is required for the station's operation.
More, the Citadel was built by the Reapers. It wouldn't have existed without them and thus can't be the intelligence, since the intelligence created the Reapers.
The intelligence controls the Reapers and, therefore, the vanguard who sends the signal that activates the relay to the dark space. Through the Reapers and the keepers it had full control of the station.

 

I know EDI was found out. The two situations aren't comparable in that sense, however. EDI maintained personal interaction with the crew and inherently draws more attention. The citadel doesn't.

 

How would they recognize anything? With what? Adams' became suspicious of EDI because he went peaking around. The catalyst's central housing is likely housed in a location the organics cannot even reach. Much of the Citadel is unexplored and only the keepers know about them. Being as the catalyst is an AI it stands to reason it would capable of hiding itself. I doubt it will give an accurate Task Manager for anyone who asks. It's the software - it can fudge the results to suit its needs. Even if it didn't, for whatever reason, give itself control over the citadel (that its a part of) why would it not have admin privileges and a backdoor? Sovereign can do it but the catalyst has no means of accessing the hardware itself built and by all rights is the OS of?

 

Yes, it was built by the reapers who are controlled by the catalyst which in turn integrated itself into the Citadel. You build a computer with the hardware first and then put the software in last. Just because the two can exist without each other doesn't mean that the software doesn't still have control. A computer doesn't need a graphics card but the moment you plug one in your computer has control over it, becomes part of it. I can overclock it, downclock it, adjust fan speeds, change memory speeds... all kinds of stuff. The software controls the hardware. Yet the Catalyst, which built and is part of the citadel, has no control over its systems. Even though its systems are its systems...

 

Yet Sovereign can connect to it and take over the systems. The systems the catalyst should have full control over since it doesn't just live there but is, in its own words, a part of it. The catalyst, in my eyes, is a poorly written element. They could have made a few changes and made it work a lot better. They didn't, however. What we have is what we have. The catalyst is now and will forever be a plothole to me. I've never heard any case made for it that made any sense that wasn't heavily headcanon material. Its a flaw of execution and not necessarily one of general concept.

[KaiserShep]

Yeah, one of the things that always bugged me was the idea that it all basically relied heavily on everyone's sheep-like complacency to operate, even though there's just no way that there wouldn't be a bunch of people like Chorban, tirelessly studying the ins and outs of the Keepers and the Citadel until every nook and cranny was probed and classified. I mean, the asari had thousands of years to do this themselves.

[Vazgen]

You see, the idea that the Catalyst controls the Citadel directly or is the Citadel OS is as much headcanon as it being installed in a completely isolated section without any control. I gave my understanding of the "part of me" line above. You have your own understanding which seems to be more literal. Your headcanon ends up with the Catalyst as a plot hole. Mine does not.

[Valmar]

You're right, it is headcanon. Though anything with the catalyst has to be headcanon since it gives us so little to work with in the first place and what it does give us contradicts lore without giving us reasons why. Personally, I don't find either headcanons to be any good. I understand your reasoning for your view. I just disagree with it 'working'. I strongly disagree with any notion that the Reaper AI would have to be kept separated from the Citadel that is part of for it to remain hidden. Even if I assumed it did, for whatever reason, I still wouldn't be satisfied that it didn't in the very least leave a backdoor in that it could use - something Sovereign clearly had.

 

I understand both are technically headcanon. I also understand mine is more literal - though I'm a very literal person so I'm not too surprised by that. The fault still lies on the catalyst, imo. They give so little to work with that its left to us to headcanon why it fits. It doesn't fit into the lore on the surface - you have to headcanon excuses and reasons to make it work. The reaper AI God that built the citadel, lives on the citadel and is part of the citadel has no control over the citadel. Why? It doesn't say. It just expects us to go with it. I give the series a pass on many things, this isn't going to be one of them. All the headcanon to explain it, for me, is not satisfying and requires a lot of leeway in terms of stretching belief.

 

Your headcanon may not technically be a plothole but it still doesn't sit with me. For me its like... okay what if all the reapers at the end, for no reason, just all said "we're tired, we go die now" and just all suddenly flew into a sun. No crucible, no prothean super weapon. They just went and killed themselves for no real reason. Is it a plothole? Technically, no. It just violates a lot of common sense and requires a huge suspension of belief. For me that is what the "the catalyst was separated or asleep to stay hidden" stands. It asks me to suspend too much belief. Synthesis isn't technically a plothole yet people still have issues with it because of how poorly it was executed.

 

If the catalyst is the citadel and built the citadel and lives on the citadel it should have control of the citadel. Obviously it doesn't because ME1. The fact that it doesn't makes no sense to me. So it must had been asleep or separate from the construct it built and by its own words is "a part" of it. Which still doesn't make any sense to me. Why would it need to be hidden or asleep? I don't accept it to be a necessity to stay hidden. Especially not with the sheer level of incompetence the council races show in regards to the keepers. The keepers are more secretive than having the entire system secretly being an sentient AI in control of everything? I don't buy it. No matter what way you go with the catalyst none of the conclusions, for me, are satisfying.

 

Hence why I say the catalyst, as a general idea, can work. The idea of there being some AI God behind the reapers and them fighting for this extreme big-picture thinking cause is not unheard of. I have some reservations on the idea of the reapers being just tools following the commands of some AI, but I can work with it. The moment they decided that the reaper AI god was the catalyst that lived on the citadel and was a PART of the citadel is the moment it all fell apart for me. I understand this is subjective since some headcanons work for others (such as yours) but this topic was specifically asking where we personally felt it fell apart. For me, it was the catalyst being the citadel. No headcanon or interpretation has been satisfying to me, I see it as a inherent flaw of the story.

 

I don't feel I am being unreasonable in this line of thinking, either. I'm far more forgiving and understanding of what the ending tried to achieve than most. I don't even hate everything about the catalyst. I just don't think it should exist in its current form. I see it as a failure in execution. There are any number of things they could have done even a little bit different to remove a lot of my complaints here. Hell, removing the "the citadel is my home, it is a part of me" line would had fixed a great many things for me. Most of my complaints with the ending otherwise fringe more on the lines of "stuff we didn't get" rather than what we actually do get.

 

For me the catalyst is the biggest and only really glaring complaint I actually have about what was given to us.

[Vazgen]

Fair enough. The game does give us too little information to work with. I've been filling the gaps with headcanon for 2.5 years now Still can't figure out the workings of Synthesis though

[Daemul]

It fell apart as soon as people actually chose Control and Synthesis. Destroy+Shepard's speech in the "refuse" ending, mixed in with a bit of Indoctrination Theory is my (head?)canon ending.

 

We chose them because they are far better endings, with some actual closure.

[Valmar]

Still can't figure out the workings of Sythesis though

 

Shhhh! We're to never speak its name!

 

Synthesis? What synthesis? I don't know what you're talking about. You're a funny guy, you and your jokes.

 

Never.

[Ithurael]

You see, the idea that the Catalyst controls the Citadel directly or is the Citadel OS is as much headcanon as it being installed in a completely isolated section without any control

 

Let us start with what we know:

 

The citadel was built by the reapers

 

The citadel is used in the creation of a new reaper

 

The citadel is both home to and part of the catalyst

 

The Keepers, post sabotage, only respond to signals emanated from the citadel itself

 

Once passed out, shep is raised - somehow - via elevator to the catalyst

 

Once the blue ending is chosen the citadel arms - somehow - are closing.

 

So...what is raising that elevator and what is opening & closing those arms? Keepers? And...I wonder what told those keepers to do that? The crucible? That is just a power source? Magic? hmmm maybe.

 

A logical inference works like this:

 

All men are mortal - Fact

Socrates is a man - fact

Socrates is mortal - inference

 

And here:

The Keepers respond to the citadel* - Fact Via ME1

The citadel is part of the Catalyst - Fact via ME3

The keepers respond to the catalyst. - inference

 

*= Post sabotage

 

All starjar really had to say was that the crucible woke him up or activated him and that wouldn't have rendered ME1 (and by proxy 2 & 3) moot. Hell, just replace starjar with the prothean VI to explain the options and you have a winner winner chicken dinner.

 

When it comes to ME1 -3 lore and starjar there is nothing BUT headcanon that can reason him out. Mainly due to this:

https://twitter.com/...046276831772674

 

Basically if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has the same genetic makeup as a duck, same DNA as a duck and tastes like a duck...it's gonna be a duck.

 

Basically, when it comes to the catalyst (or even the crucible), there is no good in-universe explanation - just headcanon. MrBtounge said it perfectly: "turtles all the way down"

[von uber]

The Catalyst works fine from a ME3 being a standalone game point of view. And as ME3 is the best place to start...

[Vazgen]

Let us start with what we know:

 

The citadel was built by the reapers

 

The citadel is used in the creation of a new reaper

 

The citadel is both home to and part of the catalyst

 

The Keepers, post sabotage, only respond to signals emanated from the citadel itself

 

Once passed out, shep is raised - somehow - via elevator to the catalyst

 

Once the blue ending is chosen the citadel arms - somehow - are closing.

 

So...what is raising that elevator and what is opening & closing those arms? Keepers? And...I wonder what told those keepers to do that? The crucible? That is just a power source? Magic? hmmm maybe.

 

A logical inference works like this:

 

All men are mortal - Fact

Socrates is a man - fact

Socrates is mortal - inference

 

And here:

The Keepers respond to the citadel* - Fact Via ME1

The citadel is part of the Catalyst - Fact via ME3

The keepers respond to the catalyst. - inference

 

*= Post sabotage

 

All starjar really had to say was that the crucible woke him up or activated him and that wouldn't have rendered ME1 (and by proxy 2 & 3) moot. Hell, just replace starjar with the prothean VI to explain the options and you have a winner winner chicken dinner.

 

When it comes to ME1 -3 lore and starjar there is nothing BUT headcanon that can reason him out. Mainly due to this:

https://twitter.com/...046276831772674

 

Basically if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has the same genetic makeup as a duck, same DNA as a duck and tastes like a duck...it's gonna be a duck.

Only if you take it all literally.

The Citadel is home to the intelligence that "was created to bring balance. To be the Catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics."

The Citadel is a part of that catalyst since it is an essential part of the solution (new Reaper creation).

The keepers respond to a signal sent through the Citadel. The signal is sent by the vanguard - "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it".

In ME1 Sovereign interfaced with the Citadel to gain control over its systems. Something similar could've been done in ME3 when the Reapers moved the Citadel to Earth. The control was handed to them either by some Reaper directly interfacing with the Citadel, or through TIM's actions. We can see the arms closing right after Cerberus HQ.

[Ithurael]

Only if you take it all literally.

 

How else are we suppose to take this? Figuratively? Subjectively? No, I only deal in definitives, not subjectivity.

 

The keepers respond to a signal sent through the Citadel. The signal is sent by the vanguard - "This time, when Sovereign sent the signal to the Citadel, the keepers ignored it".

In ME1 Sovereign interfaced with the Citadel to gain control over its systems.

 

And starjar is the collective consciousness of all reapers. He would have known what sovy knew as he embodies all of their knowledge and controls them. Starjar did not exist in the mind of the lead writer in ME1. He would have known that the signal failed and that soveriegn was piecing the puzzle together. Then again...why piece the puzzle together? The keepers are under the control of the citadel post sabotage and starjar would have recognized that something would have changed and could have sent that info to sovereign.

 

 

The control was handed to them either by some Reaper directly interfacing with the Citadel, or through TIM's actions. We can see the arms closing right after Cerberus HQ.

 

It should be stated that the prothean sabotage ONLY affected the keepers - not the arms or control of the arms. The underlined is never said in game nor in dialog. It could have happened and I suppose we could headcanon it that way, but (when looking at the lore again) that (the interfacing with the citadel) would have only corrected the keepers receiving a signal from the reapers. The whole point of sovereign interfacing with the citadel was to open the relay manually and allow the reapers to come in. This time, the reapers are already here, so what good would interfacing with the citadel be? Just to correct the keepers I suppose as interfacing with the citadel directly would only trigger the relay to darkspace where the reapers were (and are no longer as they are now here). We are just told the arms are closed and TIM is on the citadel. Ah, well we at least have something to kind of run with here but ok. We just asses that TIM closed those arms. Then for reasons unexplained we see the arms opening and closing. And then we are told that starjar not only controls the reapers, but is their collective consciousness AND the citadel is part of him.

 

And, this still doesn't explain out the issue with ME1. Why did sovereign even need to interface with the citadel systems? Star jar was there the entire time! Why did he even need to use saren? Starjar could have just opened the arms! The prothean sabotage essentially affected the keepers ability to trigger the relay to dark space (that is it - it did not do anything to affect the citadel arm controls).

 

The plain and simple fact is that the ending was never peer reviewed, was rushed, and starjar (as cited by drews tweet) never existed in ME1 lore. I am not saying that headcanon can't make it work, it really does. But that is just headcanon. I, sadly, am incapable of such a thing.

[Vazgen]

The plain and simple fact is that the ending was never peer reviewed, was rushed, and starjar (as cited by drews tweet) never existed in ME1 lore. I am not saying that headcanon can't make it work, it really does. But that is just headcanon. I, sadly, am incapable of such a thing.

 Then why do we even discuss this? I already said that most of what I write about this issue is headcanon.

 

How else are we suppose to take this? Figuratively? Subjectively? No, I only deal in definitives, not subjectivity.
 
And starjar is the collective consciousness of all reapers. He would have known what sovy knew as he embodies all of their knowledge and controls them. Starjar did not exist in the mind of the lead writer in ME1. He would have known that the signal failed and that soveriegn was piecing the puzzle together. Then again...why piece the puzzle together? The keepers are under the control of the citadel post sabotage and starjar would have recognized that something would have changed and could have sent that info to sovereign.
 
It should be stated that the prothean sabotage ONLY affected the keepers - not the arms or control of the arms. The underlined is never said in game nor in dialog. It could have happened and I suppose we could headcanon it that way, but (when looking at the lore again) that (the interfacing with the citadel) would have only corrected the keepers receiving a signal from the reapers. The whole point of sovereign interfacing with the citadel was to open the relay manually and allow the reapers to come in. This time, the reapers are already here, so what good would interfacing with the citadel be? Just to correct the keepers I suppose as interfacing with the citadel directly would only trigger the relay to darkspace where the reapers were (and are no longer as they are now here). We are just told the arms are closed and TIM is on the citadel. Ah, well we at least have something to kind of run with here but ok. We just asses that TIM closed those arms. Then for reasons unexplained we see the arms opening and closing. And then we are told that starjar not only controls the reapers, but is their collective consciousness AND the citadel is part of him.
 
And, this still doesn't explain out the issue with ME1. Why did sovereign even need to interface with the citadel systems? Star jar was there the entire time! Why did he even need to use saren? Starjar could have just opened the arms! The prothean sabotage essentially affected the keepers ability to trigger the relay to dark space (that is it - it did not do anything to affect the citadel arm controls).

I gave you a possible interpretation of the quotes in question. The one I'm sticking to. If you don't view the quotes that way, fine, I'm not trying to pass them as the ultimate truth.

 

The intelligence is indeed the consciousness of all reapers. And yes, it would have known what Sovereign knew as it embodies all of their knowledge and controls them. That does not contradict anything from what I said. What I said is that the intelligence does not have direct control over the station, the only way it can do that is by commanding a Reaper to send the appropriate signal.

 

Vigil says: "Sovereign will override the Citadel's systems". My headcanon is that it will allow them to control the Citadel systems remotely, bypassing the keepers. Will work for future cycles as well.

 

Like I said, I prefer to use headcanon to fill the gaps instead of labeling things as plot holes and get done with it. My headcanon is based on the certain interpretation of in-game events and does not contradict them but yes, it's still headcanon. I'm content with it, however, and continue to enjoy the games - something I would not have been able to do with your approach.

[Ithurael]

Like I said, I prefer to use headcanon to fill the gaps instead of labeling things as plot holes and get done with it. My headcanon is based on the certain interpretation of in-game events and does not contradict them but yes, it's still headcanon. I'm content with it, however, and continue to enjoy the games - something I would not have been able to do with your approach.

 

 

Oh...my bad

 

That is fine. For a few seconds I was worried you were passing off headcanon as what was actually happening.

 

No worries mate. If that is your headcanon, and you know it is headcanon, that is totally fine.

 

I notice a problem - or probably take issue with - individuals who pronounce their headcanon as writer or developer intent *cough IT cough*.

 

but If you are fully willing to say what you are saying as headcanon. Then yeah, I respect that. I just wish I could be like that sometimes.

[Orikon]

*hasn't been on the forums for a week*

*comes back*

*ME3 ending thread in full swing*

/facepalm

 

The ME subreddit has better discussions then this forum.

 

Ehhh...I don't wanna read everyone's opinion on the ending again,so I'll just answer regarding to the OP:

It doesn't fall apart. At all. The Catalyst is perfectly fine as he is. ME3 falls apart way before the Catayst,and that's after Thessia.

[Vazgen]

Oh...my bad
 
That is fine. For a few seconds I was worried you were passing off headcanon as what was actually happening.
 
No worries mate. If that is your headcanon, and you know it is headcanon, that is totally fine.
 
I notice a problem - or probably take issue with - individuals who pronounce their headcanon as writer or developer intent *cough IT cough*.
 
but If you are fully willing to say what you are saying as headcanon. Then yeah, I respect that. I just wish I could be like that sometimes.

That's the good thing about such games IMO. You can interpret the in-game events in different ways and you will still be correct. The IT theory, the Catalyst deception thread, interpreting the Catalyst on gamefront... All take the same events and form a new theory from them. I find it fascinating.
It works the same for other games too. TES lore, for example, has a lot of inconsistencies and you can find many great articles rooted in lore but ultimately being the author's headcanon. 
But there is a clear distinction between facts from the games and official media which are the same for everyone and interpretation of those facts which varies depending on the individual.

[Ithurael]

But there is a clear distinction between facts from the games and official media which are the same for everyone and interpretation of those facts which varies depending on the individual.

 

 

While I do agree that it is, at the very least impressive to see how people can connect things, Many of the theories and such regarding ME3 (or more particularly its ending) are rooted in intense desire or desperation to fix the glaring issues. Because - without headcanon - the ending collapses in on itself and sours the trilogy.

 

While I do agree that no story is truly 'sin-less' good writers (or at least competent ones) at least give the reader or audience something to go with or something to run with. It could be a small detail, a notation, or even something in an appendices. Mac, it appears, just tries to go for rule of cool in his writing. And this is actually very evident from the entire game.

 

For me, things really did start to fall a part in the opening. I mean...a dreadnaught above the city? "We fight or we die"? "Two dialog options"? Even the opening Text was off. I mean it stated reapers were just Machines. When in ME2 we learned they were cyber-organic constructs.

 

Don't get me wrong, it got a bit better with Tuchanka, then worse with the citadel coup WTF, then nothing but Cerberus and fetch quests and that god awful journal. Then it got a bit better again on Rannoch, and then just plummeted after Thessia. The only thing keeping me going by the time priority earth happened was my fanboism and devotion to the story AND hoping to see how the variations of the final mission played out. Boy...was I surprised when I saw how that happened.

[Valmar]

Oh...my bad

 

That is fine. For a few seconds I was worried you were passing off headcanon as what was actually happening.

 

No worries mate. If that is your headcanon, and you know it is headcanon, that is totally fine.

 

I notice a problem - or probably take issue with - individuals who pronounce their headcanon as writer or developer intent *cough IT cough*.

 

but If you are fully willing to say what you are saying as headcanon. Then yeah, I respect that. I just wish I could be like that sometimes.

 

Which, coincidentally, is the side-effect of not taking the lore literally.

 

This interaction is a nice example of how conversations about the ending should be, though. Polite, civil, with no one making objective claims that their subjective headcanon theory is the only right way. Refreshing.

[Valmar]

While I do agree that it is, at the very least impressive to see how people can connect things, Many of the theories and such regarding ME3 (or more particularly its ending) are rooted in intense desire or desperation to fix the glaring issues. Because - without headcanon - the ending collapses in on itself and sours the trilogy.

 

Personally, in hindsight, I'm okay with the ending. Flaws, sure, lackluster even. Though it doesn't sour the trilogy for me. Not anymore. I used to completely hate it. For a long time, actually. Though then I realized that a lot of my problems were actually misunderstanding and general misconceptions.

 

 

For me, things really did start to fall a part in the opening. I mean...a dreadnaught above the city? "We fight or we die"? "Two dialog options"? Even the opening Text was off. I mean it stated reapers were just Machines. When in ME2 we learned they were cyber-organic constructs.

 

 

 

This was another big issue I had with the game in general. This is the kind of BS that lead me to hating the game for as long as I did. I also believe it is a contributing factor to why so many people have misconceptions about the story. How are we expected to keep in mind the fact that the reapers are not machines when the protagonist is constantly behaving like an idiot and calling them machines despite ME2's big revelation being that they're not machines. When they make Shepard ignorant to the lore the player is bound to get influenced by such nonsense.

 

They also should have held our hands more in the story. Stop relying on us actually remembering all these details and make a point to actually smack us in the face with them. This isn't Dark Souls.

[themikefest]

The Catalyst works fine from a ME3 being a standalone game point of view. And as ME3 is the best place to start...

Yep

 

Since ME3 is for bringing in new players, maybe ME3 can be made for people that played ME1/ME2 before the standalone ME3 was relesaed

[Linkenski]

Personally, in hindsight, I'm okay with the ending. Flaws, sure, lackluster even. Though it doesn't sour the trilogy for me. Not anymore. I used to completely hate it. For a long time, actually. Though then I realized that a lot of my problems were actually misunderstanding and general misconceptions.

 

 

 

This was another big issue I had with the game in general. This is the kind of BS that lead me to hating the game for as long as I did. I also believe it is a contributing factor to why so many people have misconceptions about the story. How are we expected to keep in mind the fact that the reapers are not machines when the protagonist is constantly behaving like an idiot and calling them machines despite ME2's big revelation being that they're not machines. When they make Shepard ignorant to the lore the player is bound to get influenced by such nonsense.

 

They also should have held our hands more in the story. Stop relying on us actually remembering all these details and make a point to actually smack us in the face with them. This isn't Dark Souls.

The opening crawl was fine. Supericially looking Reapers are machines and as Drew left I guess the rest of the team wanted to downplay the whole "Organic and machine" aspect of the Reapers because the ending idea was something they didn't like, and admittedly even on paper I think the dark energy ending sounded bad. Maybe not as hamfisted as what we got but still really bad.

 

For me it was more once the monologue from Hackett and Anderson that seemed out of character for anyone who'd played ME1 and ME2. "Is this what Shepard warned us about?", Anderson, you should KNOW that already.

 

It's nice they wanted a callback to ME1's opening by making it about Hackett and Anderson talking about Shepard but it didn't work because their lines were written to present the plot idea to newcomers and violating their characters in the process.

 

It's like in CoD Advanced Warfare - which I shouldn't ever have to compare to a Bioware game but that's how bad this is - where in the intro you're told that Troy Baker and other guy are best friends and then the first thing they say in the game make them sound like they just met, all for the sake of introducing themselves to the audience. It's probably the worst way to set up characters.

[dreamgazer]

Yep

 

Since ME3 is for bringing in new players, maybe ME3 can be made for people that played ME1/ME2 before the standalone ME3 was relesaed

 

I'd still like to play a proper sequel to ME1 that actually gave a damn about continuing the narrative, instead of turning into a reboot in all but name.  

 

ME2's retcons, railroading, marginalized choices, gameplay shifts and gutted RPG components will always be more guilty of this "new player" issue than ME3.

[Linkenski]

*hasn't been on the forums for a week*

*comes back*

*ME3 ending thread in full swing*

/facepalm

 

The ME subreddit has better discussions then this forum.

 

Ehhh...I don't wanna read everyone's opinion on the ending again,so I'll just answer regarding to the OP:

It doesn't fall apart. At all. The Catalyst is perfectly fine as he is. ME3 falls apart way before the Catayst,and that's after Thessia.

when Reddit's Mass Effect logo is like this you know you're going into a section full of fangirls, and not surprisingly half of the page is "look what I just drew!" and a picture of Garrus kissing a self-insert or something.

 

I go there sometimes but I'm always turned off by the girls... wait, that came out wrong.

 

It's actually kind of ironic that you facepalm when you go to the Bioware forum on Mass Effect 3's story page. Like, what did you expect?

[Valmar]

It's actually kind of ironic that you facepalm when you go to the Bioware forum on Mass Effect 3's story page. Like, what did you expect?

 

Cupcake recipes.

[themikefest]

I'd still like to play a proper sequel to ME1 that actually gave a damn about continuing the narrative, instead of turning into a reboot in all but name.  

 

ME2's retcons, railroading, marginalized choices, gameplay shifts and gutted RPG components will always be more guilty of this "new player" issue than ME3.

That's fine. I won't complain if I can play Shepard for 2 more games