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[Iakus]

I used to think that myself. I've seen changed my stance on it. They're not wrong to doubt our capability to understand. Look at all the confusion you see online. There's a lot of people who didn't understand it. I think most people get get insulted at the notion that something might be beyond them so they instantly assume it isn't and that they have a clear understanding of it.

 

Hell, its clearly beyond Shepard in many aspects. Look at how long he keeps insisting the reapers are just machines, despite the revelations in ME2 and EDI directly coming out and smacking his face with corrections. Why the reapers think this is the guy to entrust with deciding the fate of the cycle is beyond me. Though the trilogy does like making people do stupid things just for the sake of letting Shepard come out as the hero. *cough* Council *cough*

Except, the Reapers are just machines.

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

[TMA LIVE]

Except, the Reapers are just machines.

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

 

I kind of consider the Reapers as machines the same way I consider the humanoids in BattleStar machines. Sure they might be some more organic stuff going on interior and exterior, but everything else is very machine like.

[wolfhowwl]

It's a good thing that its understandable to a degree, then.

I acknowledged that they did develop the Reapers ("BioWare realized [they had to be developed] even if their execution sucked.") and did attempt at revealing understandable motives.

Even if the ending and final revelation had been decent it still would most likely have been undercut by the lack of focus and direction that pervades this series but sadly it wasn't even that. It was terrible.

It's not like other Reaper-like antagonists had some amazing deep reveal either. In Revelation Space and even Gurren Lagann (lol), in the face of a massive threat on the galactic or universe level it is necessary to take extreme measures to regulate life to combat it (it's pretty obvious that Drew was "influenced" by RS while writing ME1).

In RS you can see the logic that BioWare was fumbling with in the ending.

[Valmar]

Except, the Reapers are just machines.

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

 

You'll forgive me if I rather not toss out 99% of the lore just because the catalyst's 1% comes in as a poorly written contradiction of said lore. The fact that it controls the reapers is not because the 99% of the lore is wrong, its because its a plothole. You of all people should know that.

 

 

Even if the ending and final revelation had been decent it still would most likely have been undercut by the lack of focus and direction that pervades this series but sadly it wasn't even that. It was terrible.

 

In your opinion, perhaps. I don't find it terrible. Unoriginal and unsatisfying, if anything, but not terrible.

[dreamgazer]

Except, the Reapers are just machines.

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

 

I don't see why answering to a higher authority devalues the Reapers into being "just machines".

[God]

I don't see why answering to a higher authority devalues the Reapers into being "just machines".

 

It doesn't.

 

And even if they are machines, they are not 'just' machines.

 

There are a lot of attributes that machines have that are superior to organics.

[Iakus]

You'll forgive me if I rather not toss out 99% of the lore just because the catalyst's 1% comes in as a poorly written contradiction of said lore. The fact that it controls the reapers is not because the 99% of the lore is wrong, its because its a plothole. You of all people should know that.

 

Yeah, it flies in the face of "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness".  Unfortunately, this is what Bioware decided was "art", even after taking a mulligan.

 

Thus why I prefer a certain mod that removes the Catalyst scenes entirely.

[dreamgazer]

Each a nation, independent ... yet they abide by a systematic cycle of extermination that exerts order over chaos and waits until a specific "apex" of civilization to do so. Forgive me for thinking that has never sounded like true independence.

[Iakus]

Each a nation, independent ... yet they abide by a systematic cycle of extermination that exerts order over chaos and waits until a specific "apex" of civilization to do so. Forgive me for thinking that has never sounded like true independence.

 

Did we know they all abided by this cycle?  There had never been any Reaper uprisings or rebellions?  Or groups that had removed themselves and just hung out in their own little enclaves?

 

Or maybe these Reapers are the rebels, and fled from elsewhere for their own reasons.  Or perhaps they forced their bretheren to remain in hibernation in dark space while they carried on teh cycles.

[wolfhowwl]

Each a nation, independent ... yet they abide by a systematic cycle of extermination that exerts order over chaos and waits until a specific "apex" of civilization to do so. Forgive me for thinking that has never sounded like true independence.

 

In the source material that Drew was obviously inspired by the race in question was also following orders.

[Linkenski]

Yeah, I agree with Stargazer there. To my knowledge the whole "Each a nation" thing was subverted with ME2 and ME3 by making it more literal because every reaper is a nation of sentient life that's been processed into becoming a reaper.

[Iakus]

Yeah, I agree with Stargazer there. To my knowledge the whole "Each a nation" thing was subverted with ME2 and ME3 by making it more literal because every reaper is a nation of sentient life that's been processed into becoming a reaper.

And the "independant" part had a hammer taken to it and left in a shallow grave...

[dreamgazer]

And the "independant" part had a hammer taken to it and left in a shallow grave...

The "independent" part never had much life in it in the first place.

[KaiserShep]

It doesn't.

 

And even if they are machines, they are not 'just' machines.

 

There are a lot of attributes that machines have that are superior to organics.

 

In fiction, machinery can be as indestructible or as everlasting as the plot demands. Little things like the chemical breakdown of polymers and metals don't really matter. In the case of the geth and I suppose the reapers, it's "self-repair", and it's as easy as that. It's the same reason why the fuel in WALL-E's Zippo lighter didn't evaporate, because having all forms of technology left behind to rot not working wouldn't make for the most compelling story

[God]

In fiction, machinery can be as indestructible or as everlasting as the plot demands. Little things like the chemical breakdown of polymers and metals don't really matter. In the case of the geth and I suppose the reapers, it's "self-repair", and it's as easy as that. It's the same reason why the fuel in WALL-E's Zippo lighter didn't evaporate, because having all forms of technology left behind to rot not working wouldn't make for the most compelling story

 

I also mean it in more philosophical terms.

 

Do the machines lack humanity? And is that a weakness... or a strength?

 

I personally think it's a strength.

[The Arbiter]

Original scene 

Can you pinpoint the exact line or timestamp in this video where you felt the ending just stopped being coherent? Personally I think it stops at about the 2 minute mark.
 

Extended Cut 

In the Extended Cut version it's, again, after the investigative choices and when Shepard makes the [INSERT ARTISTIC MESSAGE] and then they go on to talk about making a solution. I just can't help but feel it should've been more of a debate and using the dialogue wheel to counterargue ethics and logic than taking his logic at face value and then going through with his programmed solutions.
 
I don't mind it if you're like "It stops being coherent as soon as you rise up the elevator" either. You're entitled to your opinion so go ahead.

 

HACKET: FIRE THE TRIGGER SHEPARD FIRE THE CRUCIBLE!!

 

SHEPARD: IT WON'T I HAVE NO IDEA WHY! WE ARE DOOMED!

 

Catalyst: Brings shepard to roof, Hello Organic, do you want to know how to control us? combine us with organics or destroy us entirely?

 

[WizzyWarlock]

Catalyst: Brings shepard to roof, Hello Organic, do you want to know how to control us? combine us with organics or destroy us entirely?

Hah, reminds me of the old Microsoft paper clip. "Hi user, I see you're trying to destroy the reapers.."

[KrrKs]

 

Catalyst: Brings shepard to roof, Hello Organic, do you want to know how to control us? combine us with organics or destroy us entirely?

Hah, reminds me of the old Microsoft paper clip. "Hi user, I see you're trying to destroy the reapers.."

I knew the large windows frontent on the supposed AI warships didn't seem right... 

[Iakus]

Hah, reminds me of the old Microsoft paper clip. "Hi user, I see you're trying to destroy the reapers.."

*Renegade option* "Crap, a popup"

[Darius M.]

I know I'm probably the odd man out here, but for me, it didn't fall apart with starchild, or the Reaper's conflicting messages (though they certainly didn't help matters). For me, the big unraveling part was Cerberus (ME2 to ME3)

 

In six months, (however long Shep was under house arrest) I'm supposed to believe that Cerberus suddenly transformed from this small, under-the radar, rogue black ops organization to all of a sudden being this galactic powerhouse that is capable of not only challenging the Salarian, Turian, and citadel-based militaries, but often times completely obliterating them. In almost half the side missions (and some main ones) if Shepard hadn't showed up, Cerberus would've somehow dominated.

 

A base on the SALARIAN HOMEWORLD? Too easy. 

Operating with impunity on Tuchanka? Cakewalk.

Making an experienced Turian platoon look like a JROTC unit? Check. 

Taking over the seat of galactic government during wartime? No sweat. 

Taking over the elite mercenary/pirate hub of the galaxy? Not a problem.

Going toe to toe with the Alliance Navy at Kronos Station? Bring it. 

 

And its not forgiven because they say TIM turned to indoctrination to bolster numbers. The amount of soldiers, gear, top-line weapons, biotic-capable individuals, mechs, and spaceworthy warships, (not to mention constant access to  intel better than what the STG could acquire and a seemingly inexhaustible list of double agents and contacts) simply doesn't add up for me. Even if they somehow had all this stuff stored away for a rainy day, there's no way that you trained an elite military this size in that amount of time. 

 

But anyway, you get the idea. I think it falls apart when they portray Cerberus as an equal (or greater) threat than the primary antagonists that have been set up for the entire series. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need for a secondary villian, and I like the concept behind Cerberus, it's the execution of that concept that I take issue with, more so than the ending. 

[Linkenski]

Except, the Reapers are just machines.

 

"I control the Reapers.  They are my solution"

And once again we have pinpointed the inconsistency that is continuity between the 3 games.

 

As you're playing through ME3 Shepard would sometimes refer to them as machines once again because it's convenient for the writers and their narrative since they've decided unbeknownst to us (by the time we start ME3) that Reapers are in fact not sentient, nor are they half organic.

 

Well, they're still made of organic and inorganic material and this is aknowledged in the writing of 3 but they're not half organic and sentient like they seemed to imply in ME2.

 

 

I know I'm probably the odd man out here, but for me, it didn't fall apart with starchild, or the Reaper's conflicting messages (though they certainly didn't help matters). For me, the big unraveling part was Cerberus (ME2 to ME3)

 

In six months, (however long Shep was under house arrest) I'm supposed to believe that Cerberus suddenly transformed from this small, under-the radar, rogue black ops organization to all of a sudden being this galactic powerhouse that is capable of not only challenging the Salarian, Turian, and citadel-based militaries, but often times completely obliterating them. In almost half the side missions (and some main ones) if Shepard hadn't showed up, Cerberus would've somehow dominated.

 

A base on the SALARIAN HOMEWORLD? Too easy. 

Operating with impunity on Tuchanka? Cakewalk.

Making an experienced Turian platoon look like a JROTC unit? Check. 

Taking over the seat of galactic government during wartime? No sweat. 

Taking over the elite mercenary/pirate hub of the galaxy? Not a problem.

Going toe to toe with the Alliance Navy at Kronos Station? Bring it. 

 

And its not forgiven because they say TIM turned to indoctrination to bolster numbers. The amount of soldiers, gear, top-line weapons, biotic-capable individuals, mechs, and spaceworthy warships, (not to mention constant access to  intel better than what the STG could acquire and a seemingly inexhaustible list of double agents and contacts) simply doesn't add up for me. Even if they somehow had all this stuff stored away for a rainy day, there's no way that you trained an elite military this size in that amount of time. 

 

But anyway, you get the idea. I think it falls apart when they portray Cerberus as an equal (or greater) threat than the primary antagonists that have been set up for the entire series. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need for a secondary villian, and I like the concept behind Cerberus, it's the execution of that concept that I take issue with, more so than the ending. 

AKA: "Just take Mac Walters down... Please!"

 

(context: Not a death threat, just a joke of a terrible line Shepard has in autodialogue during Cerberus HQ mission)

[Vazgen]

context: Not a death threat, just a joke of a terrible line Shepard has in autodialogue during Cerberus HQ mission

That line fits a Sole Survivor Shepard quite well IMO. Of course, having to work with Cerberus in ME2 ruins it

[Valmar]

I know I'm probably the odd man out here, but for me, it didn't fall apart with starchild, or the Reaper's conflicting messages (though they certainly didn't help matters). For me, the big unraveling part was Cerberus (ME2 to ME3)

 

In six months, (however long Shep was under house arrest) I'm supposed to believe that Cerberus suddenly transformed from this small, under-the radar, rogue black ops organization to all of a sudden being this galactic powerhouse that is capable of not only challenging the Salarian, Turian, and citadel-based militaries, but often times completely obliterating them. In almost half the side missions (and some main ones) if Shepard hadn't showed up, Cerberus would've somehow dominated.

 

A base on the SALARIAN HOMEWORLD? Too easy. 

Operating with impunity on Tuchanka? Cakewalk.

Making an experienced Turian platoon look like a JROTC unit? Check. 

Taking over the seat of galactic government during wartime? No sweat. 

Taking over the elite mercenary/pirate hub of the galaxy? Not a problem.

Going toe to toe with the Alliance Navy at Kronos Station? Bring it. 

 

And its not forgiven because they say TIM turned to indoctrination to bolster numbers. The amount of soldiers, gear, top-line weapons, biotic-capable individuals, mechs, and spaceworthy warships, (not to mention constant access to  intel better than what the STG could acquire and a seemingly inexhaustible list of double agents and contacts) simply doesn't add up for me. Even if they somehow had all this stuff stored away for a rainy day, there's no way that you trained an elite military this size in that amount of time. 

 

But anyway, you get the idea. I think it falls apart when they portray Cerberus as an equal (or greater) threat than the primary antagonists that have been set up for the entire series. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need for a secondary villian, and I like the concept behind Cerberus, it's the execution of that concept that I take issue with, more so than the ending. 

 

Well including the whole "TIM uses indoctrination" also remember TIM has a the perk of having Commander Shepard. Didn't even Conrad work for them because The Commander Shepard did, therefore they must be good?

 

It isn't like Cerberus kept secret about Shepard's involvement. They were spreading it around back in ME2 that Shepard was working with them. Imagine how many young impressionable teens in the terminus or even Alliance space heard of that and joined up just to follow in the footsteps of their hero.

[Darius M.]

Well including the whole "TIM uses indoctrination" also remember TIM has a the perk of having Commander Shepard. Didn't even Conrad work for them because The Commander Shepard did, therefore they must be good?

 

It isn't like Cerberus kept secret about Shepard's involvement. They were spreading it around back in ME2 that Shepard was working with them. Imagine how many young impressionable teens in the terminus or even Alliance space heard of that and joined up just to follow in the footsteps of their hero.

A fair point, but I still don't see how even with that recruitment, (how does a black ops organization recruit openly anyway  ) but even if I were to concede that between indoctrination and "recruitment" that that gave Cerberus enough troop capacity to fight the galaxy on that scale, (which is a pretty mighty stretch IMO) how in the world do they train such forces, organize them, and do so in a way which allows for the feats that they accomplish in ME3?

 

In other words, even putting aside for the moment the numbers inconsistency, how does one train, outfit, and equip a force like that IN SECRET? Such that NO ONE ever even has so much as a clue about how to counterattack Cerberus aside from the occasional response to an outpost under attack or distress call. 

 

I'm just saying, Cerberus makes VERY little sense to me in this game. 

[Vazgen]

A fair point, but I still don't see how even with that recruitment, (how does a black ops organization recruit openly anyway  ) but even if I were to concede that between indoctrination and "recruitment" that that gave Cerberus enough troop capacity to fight the galaxy on that scale, (which is a pretty mighty stretch IMO) how in the world do they train such forces, organize them, and do so in a way which allows for the feats that they accomplish in ME3?

 

In other words, even putting aside for the moment the numbers inconsistency, how does one train, outfit, and equip a force like that IN SECRET? Such that NO ONE ever even has so much as a clue about how to counterattack Cerberus aside from the occasional response to an outpost under attack or distress call. 

 

I'm just saying, Cerberus makes VERY little sense to me in this game. 

Clone army in SW comes to mind. It was pretty much created in secret  

And their training leaves a lot to be desired. They can't hit someone in a narrow ventilation shaft.