304 réponses à ce sujet

[Darius M.]

Clone army in SW comes to mind. It was pretty much created in secret

And their training leaves a lot to be desired. They can't hit someone in a narrow ventilation shaft. 

Lol oh c'mon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that doesn't count... bringing SW to a ME debate.

 

damn... kinda makes sense though. Ok fine even if I give Valmar the numbers that they somehow come up with and you the secrecy that they come up with, how does a renegade solely-human splinter faction suddenly have the tools and capabilities to be on par or better tactically than species who have had spaceflight technologies and beyond for longer than humans have even lived outside of caves? Yes it seems like they are s^^tty marksmen but they have to have SOME strong training aspect somewhere because they still regularly get results. They still took the citadel, still took Omega, etc....

[Vazgen]

Well, that's true for humanity as a whole. Humanity became an important player way too soon. Medi-gel, for example, is a human creation. I would not dismiss the possibility that humanity used the Prothean archives on Mars similarly to how the asari used Thessia beacon.
Reaper augmentations make soldiers more powerful, tougher etc. They are dumb and s^^tty marksmen but with numbers and orders from experienced officers they become a formiddable force. My guess is that the Centurions and Engineers come from the core Cerberus personnel with training and such. Others are just cannon fodder.

[Valmar]

A fair point, but I still don't see how even with that recruitment, (how does a black ops organization recruit openly anyway  ) but even if I were to concede that between indoctrination and "recruitment" that that gave Cerberus enough troop capacity to fight the galaxy on that scale, (which is a pretty mighty stretch IMO) how in the world do they train such forces, organize them, and do so in a way which allows for the feats that they accomplish in ME3?

 

In other words, even putting aside for the moment the numbers inconsistency, how does one train, outfit, and equip a force like that IN SECRET? Such that NO ONE ever even has so much as a clue about how to counterattack Cerberus aside from the occasional response to an outpost under attack or distress call. 

 

I'm just saying, Cerberus makes VERY little sense to me in this game. 

 

Cerberus... train? Organize? Feats? We're on about the same guys, yes?

 

Indoctrination is all the training they need. It's all the training they seem to get. Fat lot of good it does them.

 

Outfitting on the other hand... somewhat easier to deal with. They seem to use mass produced armors that for the most part don't even have shields. Just stamp them out of an assembly line and there you go - protection. 

[Perpetual Nirvana]

ME2 is my favorite game in the series but it's central story is weak (luckily, it's only a small part of the actual game). The plot is just silly bananas and it kicks off the anthropocentrism, over centralization of Shepard, galactic apathy, Cerberus, and other sorts of poorly justified elements that eroded the central Reaper story.

 
ME2 is the classic example of an idiot plot, in that for the plot to function all the major players have to act like idiots.
 
"Ah yes, reapers..."
 

Personally I always felt the dark energy ending had as many plotholes as the original.

Yeah, what the choice in the dark energy ending? Fight against the reapers and hope you fix the dark energy problem later or just let the reapers carry on harvesting. What kind of choice is that?!

The best one I feel was the "Javik IS the catalyst" one. In fact a lot of the problems with the plot stem from them having to write around cutting Javik out to sell him as DLC.

[Darius M.]

Well, that's true for humanity as a whole. Humanity became an important player way too soon. Medi-gel, for example, is a human creation. I would not dismiss the possibility that humanity used the Prothean archives on Mars similarly to how the asari used Thessia beacon.
Reaper augmentations make soldiers more powerful, tougher etc. They are dumb and s^^tty marksmen but with numbers and orders from experienced officers they become a formiddable force. My guess is that the Centurions and Engineers come from the core Cerberus personnel with training and such. Others are just cannon fodder.

 

 

Cerberus... train? Organize? Feats? We're on about the same guys, yes?

 

Indoctrination is all the training they need. It's all the training they seem to get. Fat lot of good it does them.

 

Outfitting on the other hand... somewhat easier to deal with. They seem to use mass produced armors that for the most part don't even have shields. Just stamp them out of an assembly line and there you go - protection. 

Thank you both for your replies, but don't ya see??? I think you guys are proving my point. This is why I think that Cerberus is where it falls apart.

 

There has to be some plausible explanation as to why they are such a headache through the entire game. At some point I think you have to reconcile Cerberus the force with the actions that we're told Cerberus accomplishes throughout this game. (my list in previous post) 

 

(Valmar, I agree that they don't show us much skill in cutscenes, but observe the results. They took the Citadel. They took Omega. They seem on the verge of taking almost every location they move to through the whole campaign.)

 

The reply from Vazgen seems to say that the most important individuals in the organization are a core of well-trained operatives, while Valmar, you seem to say that Cerberus is simply a low-quality force of indoctrinated, near-untrained masses. All I'm saying is that look, it has to be one or the other. 

 

Either they're made up of an extremely well-trained corps (in which case I still say there's NO way these few core individuals could train and prepare enough support troopers to a level high enough to ever become a strong enough force to take the Citadel, the elite mercs of Omega, etc.) 

 

Or... they're made up of a mass of indoctrinated, low-quality, dime-a-dozen mooks (in which case I don't see how such a basic, hastily-trained, broadsword of a force could ever move about with the precision this group's operations demand, or that such a basic force could pose a threat to the Citadel, Omega, etc.)

 

Cerberus can't have it both ways.  Either they're a small number of incredibly skilled, highly trained bada++es, and would have trouble having the numbers to pull off the stuff that we're told they pull off throughout this campaign, or they're mass produced fodder who wouldn't have anywhere near enough skill to pull off the stuff we're told they pull off throughout this campaign. I think at some point, you have to be able to reconcile the means with the outcomes, and I just don't see that with Cerberus. You both have given two outlooks, but I don't see how either of them could work. Thus I think Cerberus as a villain is where it falls apart. 

[SwobyJ]

Hmm.

 

For me, I put them somewhere in the middle.

 

Stronger than the majority of armed forces in the galaxy (99%) + significantly weaker than Shepard and the other relative elite of the galaxy (like Spectres, N7, STG, Warlords, etc).

 

Forced upgrades that lets them get the job done in an efficient way, but fall apart when facing more naturally trained opposition.

 

I considered them to be suped up fodder. Is that a contradiction? Maybe? I guess in some ways? But I didn't have the same problem you did.

 

There's the whole theme of Reaper Indoctrination/Reaper Tech being either an upgrade or a downgrade. An upgrade in that it gets its subjects to be capable of more than anything they could do before (without years of training + aptitude). A downgrade in that the stuff that could have potentially made them uniquely great is snuffed out.

The united and finally successful-enough Cycle became a passionate group fighting for their very survival, while Cerberus stopped fighting for survival, but instead became drones looking for their next upgrade fix.

 

I didn't see as much of a problem with the 'two faced' quality of Cerberus enemies because I sort of thought that was the point. They're 'supposed' to be so powerful, but they still, ultimately, are nothing compared to our Shepard.

 

Indoctrination doesn't necessarily make you dumb, but it does sap you of your individual potential and has your own mind rely on the system its being connected into. And turns out that TIM was, in his 'subversion of science', really doing a rush job with his super expensive army, and still didn't make them good enough to stomp Shepard. But neither did the Reapers I guess, so yeah. Go Shepard.

[Valmar]

They TRIED to take the Citadel. Didn't work out that well for them. Their success has always seemed to be due to overwhelming numbers. They have more meat to throw at the grinder. Whereas all the other races are more focused on protecting their homeworlds and defending against the reapers. Cerberus' 'success' was due largely inpart due to their back-stabbing stealth. This has always been where Cerberus' shines really. Direct combat was never really their thing.

 

As for them taking over Omega well that is a bit of a cheat, bit of a not. Firstly again they ultiized back-stabbing tactics. The one thing they're actually good at. Secondly they had purposely sent those reaper creatures of theirs into Omega to soften it up. Besides that Omega never had much of a police force in the first place.

[von uber]

Cerberus numbers (in fact population numbers as a whole) don't add up.

[Linkenski]

There's indeed no way Cerberus troops aren't trained. Their level of indoctrination is indeed high but they're not straight up husks even if that's the word Ashley/Kaidan chooses on Mars.

 

I don't remember any evidence of said training facilities but you'd think considering the gun (nevermind the AI here) skills, the co-operative skills and squad management Cerberus seems to have as well as their HQ that these dudes has undergone some training.

 

A very vague and unexplored but clearly hinted plot of Cerberus was the fact that they were always indoctrinated even in ME2 and James has a dialogue with Shepard hinting at this, as much as I don't like it:

 

"That's the worst part! the Cerberus spy was working WITH the collectors!" - James Vega.

 

And consider for a moment that seemingly all the Cerberus trooper personell are civilians evacuated to Sanctuary who are turned into soldiers, many whom had never wielded a gun before. They are indoctrinated but not directly controlled by anyone, only inluenced and indoctrinated in the purest meaning of the word to follow their leader through delusional belief. They appear to communicate more than Reaper forces through comms and whatnot and that admittedly crappy iOS game, Infiltrater has you playing as a Cerberus guy and walking through Cerberus HQ seeing other troopers walk casually around and you get the sense that it's a place that has gun courses and training facilities.

[themikefest]

TAKING CASUALTIES

[AlanC9]

how does a renegade solely-human splinter faction suddenly have the tools and capabilities to be on par or better tactically than species who have had spaceflight technologies and beyond for longer than humans have even lived outside of caves

Probably the same way the Alliance managed that trick.

[wolfhowwl]

Probably the same way the Alliance managed that trick.

 

The timeline for this series really is quite ridiculous when you actually take a look at it.

[Iakus]

Probably the same way the Alliance managed that trick.

Let everyone else rest on their laurels for a thousand years or so?  

[von uber]

Well given the fact that based on the population figures in the codex it seems there are nearly as many humans as other species, despite them being limited to one planet and a few colonies.. it really doesn't make any sense.

[SwobyJ]

Well given the fact that based on the population figures in the codex it seems there are nearly as many humans as other species, despite them being limited to one planet and a few colonies.. it really doesn't make any sense.

 

I never got that impression.

 

I think the capital planets have similar population numbers, but the major alien races have substantially more colonies than humanity, so they still distinctly outnumber humanity, even of not overwhelmingly.

 

And we do have to keep in mind the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions. Even if their effects were limited, I could see that slowing down expansionism, whereas humanity dun care about that yet.

 

And there's the possibility that with higher living standards, human-ish species could have lower birth rates, to the point of 0-2 tops (instead of 1-3, or several). I can see that for asari, and salarians have clutches, and do not have a sex drive. Males do not have children, and females are a rather small minority that have dozens of children a year (which would be a big deal if females were 50% of the species, but they're more like 10%). And those eggs are not all fertilized, because they've reached the level of widespread population control.

 

This cycle itself may be an anomaly, yes, but for the most part, it seems balanced to support several major species not overwhelming the others with population numbers. This lets the story be told.

[von uber]

I think the capital planets have similar population numbers, but the major alien races have substantially more colonies than humanity, so they still distinctly outnumber humanity, even of not overwhelmingly..

 

Thessia, for example, has half (5.5 compared to 11) of the population of Earth; Palaven has 6.1. They would have to have massive colonies to compensate - the largest Asari colony I found was 677million, with the next 250.

It just doesn't strike me as likely that humanity would be as populous as the other races who are not largely fixed to one planet.

[Dubozz]

When do you think it falls apart?

For me it was the moment on Mars.

Liara: I've discovered plans for a prothean device. One that could wipe out the Reapers.

I was like: "so thats it.?"

 

the final nails to the me3 coffin for me were priority earth and starbrat

[SwobyJ]

Thessia, for example, has half (5.5 compared to 11) of the population of Earth; Palaven has 6.1. They would have to have massive colonies to compensate - the largest Asari colony I found was 677million, with the next 250.

It just doesn't strike me as likely that humanity would be as populous as the other races who are not largely fixed to one planet.

 

I dunno that actually makes some sense to me. Children for asari seem to cap at around 2, and there's no rush in doing it.

 

Humans are swarms of rats compared to that. And there's still many slummy areas on Earth with high birth rates, I assume.

 

I think it'd only surprise me if Turians aren't of higher population than Humans. The rest have excuses.

[Barquiel]

Thessia, for example, has half (5.5 compared to 11) of the population of Earth; Palaven has 6.1. They would have to have massive colonies to compensate - the largest Asari colony I found was 677million, with the next 250.

It just doesn't strike me as likely that humanity would be as populous as the other races who are not largely fixed to one planet.

 

Lusia is the largest asari colony, it has a population of 2,2 billion.

 

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Lusia

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

When this didn't end the game:

 

[Dunmer of Redoran]

Well given the fact that based on the population figures in the codex it seems there are nearly as many humans as other species, despite them being limited to one planet and a few colonies.. it really doesn't make any sense.

Human expansion is more limited than other species. They may have larger populations than we do (there's a crapload of Batarians in the Terminus Systems, before and after the Reaper invasion) but they are scattered about in a multitude of colonies. There's nowhere near as many colonies for humans, resulting in a much denser population. Since we go almost exclusively to human-dominated areas, I don't think that this should be very surprising.

 

What I primarily dislike is the fact that the Terminus Systems are supposed to be powerful enough to give the Citadel Races a run for their money. The Citadel is supposed to be a glimmering jewel of Galactic civilization and yet it sort of isn't, because all these things about military supremacy are informed, not proven.

[Alamar2078]

I love ME2 but I agree with other posters that things BEGIN falling apart for the series about 5 or 10 minutes into ME2.  While ME2 was a great standalone game I don't think it contributes as well as I think it should to the overall arch.

 

As for the poster's original post it personally begins falling apart for me when the catalyst shows up as a character that [IMHO] does not have meaningful buildup.  Certainly once the catalyst says he is the Citadel and the Reaper controlling AI [without what I personally think is sufficient buildup over the series] then I'm done.  Synthesis is the icing on the cake to full on hard-core WTF.

[TMA LIVE]

I love ME2 but I agree with other posters that things BEGIN falling apart for the series about 5 or 10 minutes into ME2.  While ME2 was a great standalone game I don't think it contributes as well as I think it should to the overall arch.

 

As for the poster's original post it personally begins falling apart for me when the catalyst shows up as a character that [IMHO] does not have meaningful buildup.  Certainly once the catalyst says he is the Citadel and the Reaper controlling AI [without what I personally think is sufficient buildup over the series] then I'm done.  Synthesis is the icing on the cake to full on hard-core WTF.

 

I do think it was a mistake to make the AI the Reaper Creator as the dude giving you the choices. If he was "Hi, I'm a random AI on the Citadel. I'm here to tell you what you can use the Crucible for", we'd have less debate on "Why should I pick a choice that kills me, considering it's coming from my enemy? Why should I trust it period?"

[dreamgazer]

I do think it was a mistake to make the AI the Reaper Creator as the dude giving you the choices. If he was "Hi, I'm a random AI on the Citadel. I'm here to tell you what you can use the Crucible for", we'd have less debate on "Why should I pick a choice that kills me, considering it's coming from my enemy? Why should I trust it period?"