179 réponses à ce sujet

[Nelyafinwe]

So at landsmeet instead of makin the big decision on Loghain; bring in some of the Legion of the Dead and have them explane on how broodmothers are made and explain to him what exactly he did when he let The land he ruled fall. I mean yeah some of his peasants escaped and the men captured were probably eaten but the females? Nice fresh broodmothers if they survive the process. To bad Anora wasn't home when the dark spawn came a'calling.

[Colonelkillabee]

It changes nothing really. If you want to blame someone for the (Inevitable) broodmothers, blame that fool Cailan.

[lynroy]

Simple as that, eh?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Does the Legion of the Dead even know how Broodmothers are created? Other than the ones who run into them and are killed and captured like Sigrun's group I mean since obviously they aren't going to be reporting in. The only organization I recall who are shown to even know Broodmothers exist are the Grey Wardens, and they aren't very forthcoming with information and Loghain wouldn't believe the word of a Warden even if they were. 

[metatheurgist]

It's been a while but I'm sure Sigrun was aware of the fate that awaited her if she was dragged off. One of the reasons she's so glad to see the warden.

[Augustei]

OP is right, Loghain is awesome

[Eliastion]

It changes nothing really. If you want to blame someone for the (Inevitable) broodmothers, blame that fool Cailan.

Oh, definitely not inevitable. While retreating, Loghain should've sent soldiers to every village and hamlet to kill all women there!Shame on him he didn't do it. Especially if he didn't do it because he didn't know about Broodmothers! Some scouting he has, pathetic!

[I present Chuck Bass]

It changes nothing really. If you want to blame someone for the (Inevitable) broodmothers, blame that fool Cailan.

 A loghain defender? I expected more from you killabee.

[TEWR]

Does the Legion of the Dead even know how Broodmothers are created? Other than the ones who run into them and are killed and captured like Sigrun's group I mean since obviously they aren't going to be reporting in. The only organization I recall who are shown to even know Broodmothers exist are the Grey Wardens, and they aren't very forthcoming with information and Loghain wouldn't believe the word of a Warden even if they were. 

 

they do know

 

http://dragonage.wik...ry:_Rock_Wraith

[Colonelkillabee]

 A loghain defender? I expected more from you killabee.

Well, I do kill him for roleplay reasons But yea, Loghain was right about Cailan from the start and if he didn't do what he did, Ferelden would be defenseless because all those men would have died instead of just Cailan's crew.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Cailan's stupidity and the Noble's stubbornness about having a Theirin on the throne led to the land falling. Nothing Loghain could do that about that.

[Han Shot First]

What I find odd is that people criticize Cailan for his stupidity and yet give Loghain a pass for his.

 

Loghain's actions nearly destroy the Ferelden chapter of Grey Wardens and in so doing almost condemn Ferelden to complete destruction. And the motivation behind all of that is that he sees Orlais as a greater threat than the darkspawn. He overestimates the threat posed by one enemy and greatly underestimates the threat posed by another. That is strategic stupidity of epic proportions.

[Colonelkillabee]

What I find odd is that people criticize Cailan for his stupidity and yet give Loghain a pass for his.

I don't see anyone doing that... I even said I killed him.

[Br3admax]

Believe Han is speaking on past experiences. This is hardly the only thread about Loghain. 

[Addai]

What I find odd is that people criticize Cailan for his stupidity and yet give Loghain a pass for his.

 

Loghain's actions nearly destroy the Ferelden chapter of Grey Wardens and in so doing almost condemn Ferelden to complete destruction. And the motivation behind all of that is that he sees Orlais as a greater threat than the darkspawn. He overestimates to threat posed by one enemy and greatly underestimates the threat posed by another. That's strategic stupidity of epic proportions.

Yeah, but he's got moves.

 

[Aimi]

What I find odd is that people criticize Cailan for his stupidity and yet give Loghain a pass for his.

You've played enough BioWare games to know that many players are suckers for the insubordinate soldier who knows better than his superior, and for the general who knows how to Get Things Done instead of the feckless political leaders. I don't find it odd at all that Loghain gets over for these things.

[Ryriena]

Han you know this is a normal thing for people to ignore reality. In fact, I don't think Cailan was that stupid just trying to hard looking too make a name for himself outside of his father.

[Eliastion]

Han you know this is a normal thing for people to ignore reality. In fact, I don't think Cailan was that stupid just trying to hard looking too make a name for himself outside of his father.

Which is being pretty stupid, though  

 

As for Loghain, while he f*cked up plenty in the following months, but it somehow always end up brushed to the side with people arguing about Ostagar... Which, honestly, is the one place where (kinda ironically ) Loghain's defense holds pretty strong.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

What I find odd is that people criticize Cailan for his stupidity and yet give Loghain a pass for his.

 

Loghain's actions nearly destroy the Ferelden chapter of Grey Wardens and in so doing almost condemn Ferelden to complete destruction. And the motivation behind all of that is that he sees Orlais as a greater threat than the darkspawn. He overestimates the threat posed by one enemy and greatly underestimates the threat posed by another. That is strategic stupidity of epic proportions.

 

The nobles action destroyed Fereldan. Loghain is a general. He told them to unite and fight the blight together. Then Teagen gets all stupid and rebellious just because Loghain isn't Maric or his descendent. The only thing Loghain did wrong was outlawing the Wardens but the Wardens took their sweet time lighting the beacon and Loghain had no idea the building was over run by Darkspawn so any sane man would get suspicious of those actions.

 

Beside Loghain was right, Cailan was about to throw away his Anora for Celene (I can't imagine any father being happy with that) and someone as cunning as Celene would have made Cailan her tool. Not to mention it's been confirmed that Alistair is half-Orlesian so Loghain was technically right about the Warden PC trying to give Fereldan into Orlesian hand.

[Monica21]

So at landsmeet instead of makin the big decision on Loghain; bring in some of the Legion of the Dead and have them explane on how broodmothers are made and explain to him what exactly he did when he let The land he ruled fall. I mean yeah some of his peasants escaped and the men captured were probably eaten but the females? Nice fresh broodmothers if they survive the process. To bad Anora wasn't home when the dark spawn came a'calling.

 

This is dumb.

 

The land didn't fall and certainly not because Loghain "let" the land fall. Loghain after Ostagar: "We must defeat this darkspawn incursion sensibly and without hesitation." Teagan (not at Ostagar): "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it."

 

Do you really want to talk about who started the civil war and who wasn't focused on fighting the darkspawn? Really?

 

[Colonelkillabee]

This is dumb.

 

The land didn't fall and certainly not because Loghain "let" the land fall. Loghain after Ostagar: "We must defeat this darkspawn incursion sensibly and without hesitation." Teagan (not at Ostagar): "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it."

 

Do you really want to talk about who started the civil war and who wasn't focused on fighting the darkspawn? Really?

 

 

 

[DontWakeTheBear]

This is dumb.

 

The land didn't fall and certainly not because Loghain "let" the land fall. Loghain after Ostagar: "We must defeat this darkspawn incursion sensibly and without hesitation." Teagan (not at Ostagar): "The Bannorn will not bow to you simply because you demand it."

 

Actually, Loghain was like "We must secure the borders from the Orlesian's!" when he got back from Ostagar. He felt the Orlesian's were the bigger threat, and the Darkspawn could wait until after that was done. Now I've read the early books so I know why and how much he hates Orlais, but if he'd been able to put aside that hate for the good of the kingdom and wait for Celene's reinforcements of Chevaliers and Grey Warden's (which is what Duncan wanted to do) then the alliance could have crushed the Blight at Ostagar. Loghain didn't like the odds of their current numbers against the Hoard, but completely refused to bolster it with the only people willing to help so he agreed to go ahead with only the Fereldan forces available, only to release they were hopelessly outmatched in the middle of the fight and ran off.

 

Edit: As for the Bannorn, their King had just died because the General ran off and left him to die, and instead of focusing on the thing that killed him, that General has just declared himself Regent and is preparing to fight off the only people wanting to help. If I was Teagan then I'd be reluctant to swear allegiance to him too.

[Monica21]

Actually, Loghain was like "We must secure the borders from the Orlesian's!" when he got back from Ostagar. He felt the Orlesian's were the bigger threat, and the Darkspawn could wait until after that was done. Now I've read the early books so I know why and how much he hates Orlais, but if he'd been able to put aside that hate for the good of the kingdom and wait for Celene's reinforcements of Chevaliers and Grey Warden's (which is what Duncan wanted to do) then the alliance could have crushed the Blight at Ostagar. Loghain didn't like the odds of their current numbers against the Hoard, but completely refused to bolster it with the only people willing to help so he agreed to go ahead with only the Fereldan forces available, only to release they were hopelessly outmatched in the middle of the fight and ran off.

 

Edit: As for the Bannorn, their King had just died because the General ran off and left him to die, and instead of focusing on the thing that killed him, that General has just declared himself Regent and is preparing to fight off the only people wanting to help. If I was Teagan then I'd be reluctant to swear allegiance to him too.

 

http://youtu.be/r1PG8HlZNdU

 

Actually, Loghain was not "like" that at all. Seriously, buddy. Replay the game or find the video yourself next time. I'm not going to do all your work for you. Loghain's reference to "those who would take advantage of our weakened state" is a pretty clear reference to Orlais, but it's also not unfounded. If you can watch that video and tell me that Loghain is still more focused on the Orlesians than he is on the darkspawn, well, then I'll just probably have to not say anything at all. Because you know what mom always said.

[DontWakeTheBear]

http://youtu.be/r1PG8HlZNdU

 

Actually, Loghain was not "like" that at all. Seriously, buddy. Replay the game or find the video yourself next time. I'm not going to do all your work for you. Loghain's reference to "those who would take advantage of our weakened state" is a pretty clear reference to Orlais, but it's also not unfounded. If you can watch that video and tell me that Loghain is still more focused on the Orlesians than he is on the darkspawn, well, then I'll just probably have to not say anything at all. Because you know what mom always said.

It doesn't scream it in that scene I give you that but you DO see it there, like you said "There are those who would take advantage of our weakened state. We must defeat the Darkspawn incursion but we must do it sensibly and without hesitation" which means "we need to gather our men, keep those foreigners out, then deal with the threat", and in pretty much any scene he's in he's raging about the threat of Orlais: http://youtu.be/ERM9sl_51Ko?t=36s  http://youtu.be/qiudDPK6CTE?t=7m43s

In both video's he saw Orlais as the threat to be dealt with first, then the Darkspawn afterwards. The Orlesians were willing to send four legions of Chevaliers with the Grey Wardens to stop the Darkspawn, but all Loghain saw was how those Chevaliers could be used against Fereldan. 

If you're going to get snippy and rude to people then look further than a few minutes, yes Loghain wanted to deal with the Darkspawn, but it wasn't his biggest focus and the nobles had more than enough reason to be wary of the guy.

[Monica21]

It doesn't scream it in that scene I give you that but you DO see it there, like you said "There are those who would take advantage of our weakened state. We must defeat the Darkspawn incursion but we must do it sensibly and without hesitation" which means "we need to gather our men, keep those foreigners out, then deal with the threat", and in pretty much any scene he's in he's raging about the threat of Orlais: http://youtu.be/ERM9sl_51Ko?t=36s http://youtu.be/qiudDPK6CTE?t=7m43s
In both video's he saw Orlais as the threat to be dealt with first, then the Darkspawn afterwards. The Orlesians were willing to send four legions of Chevaliers with the Grey Wardens to stop the Darkspawn, but all Loghain saw was how those Chevaliers could be used against Fereldan.
If you're going to get snippy and rude to people then look further than a few minutes, yes Loghain wanted to deal with the Darkspawn, but it wasn't his biggest focus and the nobles had more than enough reason to be wary of the guy.

Of course it doesn't scream it in the scene, because that wasn't his focus. His focus is quite literally to get rid of the darkspawn so he won't need the Orlesian Wardens.

And OH! Orlesian Chevaliers! What a great idea! I mean, all they did was rape and kill his mother, drive his family off their lands, stole and nearly killed his mabari before bringing it back with just enough time to die in his arms, and hunted his father. Sure. Sounds like a very trustworthy organization. And in case you haven't read The Masked Empire, Celene was planning to take Ferelden by marrying Cailan. The line in the book is that she was trying to succeed peacefully what the previous ruler had failed to do by force.

You can say that Loghain was wrong about a lot of things, but he wasn't wrong about Ostagar and he wasn't wrong about Orlais. The Ferelden nobles were (as they often were) short-sighted and foolish.