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Loghain's Broodmothers


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#26
Han Shot First

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The nobles action destroyed Fereldan. Loghain is a general. He told them to unite and fight the blight together. Then Teagen gets all stupid and rebellious just because Loghain isn't Maric or his descendent. The only thing Loghain did wrong was outlawing the Wardens but the Wardens took their sweet time lighting the beacon and Loghain had no idea the building was over run by Darkspawn so any sane man would get suspicious of those actions.

 

Beside Loghain was right, Cailan was about to throw away his Anora for Celene (I can't imagine any father being happy with that) and someone as cunning as Celene would have made Cailan her tool. Not to mention it's been confirmed that Alistair is half-Orlesian so Loghain was technically right about the Warden PC trying to give Fereldan into Orlesian hand.

 

That completely ignores that the only reason there was a civil war is because Loghain decided to commit regicide. Civil wars often do follow on the heels of monarchs being murdered, so that result shouldn't have been unexpected. Also Loghain's awful timing illustrates how befuddled he was regarding Ferelden's strategic situation. He still views Orlais as a greater threat to Ferelden than the darkspawn at the very moment a Blight is being unleashed upon it.

 

Underestimating your opponents is one of the cardinal sins of a military commander, and Loghain does it with the darkspawn. 



#27
TEWR

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we need to gather our men, keep those foreigners out, then deal with the threat",

 

More like "We need to gather our men and present a Ferelden that doesn't appear weakened and divided by a king's death, and show those blasted Orlesians that they will not "swoop in to save the day" like they did to Kirkwall and Nevarra in the past. We need not go after Orlais, but we must appear strong even when we are weak and deal with the Darkspawn"

 

Saying he wanted to deal with Orlais first misconstrues his character. What he wanted was for the army and nation to be strong enough to stand on its own, without Orlesian assistance.

 

He was never even against the aid of foreign nations to begin with really. He petitioned Orzammar for aid (badly, considering he sent Imrek the Incompetent) and the Free Marches even sent some assistance. Or rather, one noble did.

 

 

 

That completely ignores that the only reason there was a civil war is because Loghain decided to commit regicide

 

Why, because Cailan died and Loghain lived, thus excusing the former of his part in his death? Because of some fool notion that he should've charged headlong into a hopeless battle all for some arbitrary and romanticized notion of "honor", when honor is a matter of perspective?

 

It's one thing to say Loghain failed Cailan. That much he doesn't personally deny, if we take his cut content in the Fade as anything to go by. It's another thing to start saying "you're a kingkiller!" when he isn't.


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#28
teh DRUMPf!!

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Underestimating your opponents is one of the cardinal sins of a military commander, and Loghain does it with the darkspawn. 

 

Word of Gaider says that Loghain would not have abandoned the field if he thought he could win the battle at Ostagar. He actually played it safe.



#29
Hanako Ikezawa

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Ah, okay. Thank you. 



#30
DontWakeTheBear

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Of course it doesn't scream it in the scene, because that wasn't his focus. His focus is quite literally to get rid of the darkspawn so he won't need the Orlesian Wardens.
But the other scene's that I provided you DID scream it. His focus wasn't the darkspawn, but Orlais.

And OH! Orlesian Chevaliers! What a great idea! I mean, all they did was rape and kill his mother, drive his family off their lands, stole and nearly killed his mabari before bringing it back with just enough time to die in his arms, and hunted his father. Sure. Sounds like a very trustworthy organization. And in case you haven't read The Masked Empire, Celene was planning to take Ferelden by marrying Cailan. The line in the book is that she was trying to succeed peacefully what the previous ruler had failed to do by force.

Never said they were a nice lot, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend and the Chevaliers had the numbers and could be pointed at the true enemy. Yes I've read Masked Empire, Celene DID hope to unite through marriage instead of violence which meant that there was no threat of her Chevalier's turning on the Ferelden's after the Darkspawn were dead. Marriages uniting kingdom's isn't that unheard of (both in game and real life) and would have done a good job of helping both nations.

You can say that Loghain was wrong about a lot of things, but he wasn't wrong about Ostagar and he wasn't wrong about Orlais. The Ferelden nobles were (as they often were) short-sighted and foolish.

Actually I kinda can. Loghain was right about being outnumbered at Ostagar, but he was wrong on how to deal with it. He also thought Orlais was sending an army to invade and conquer, he was wrong about that too. Both sides were petty and short-sighted, but if Fereldan HAD united behind Loghain and done what he wanted then we KNOW they'd have all lost. Loghain wanted the Ferelden Warden's dead and the Orlesian's to stay out and as we all know "no Warden means no killing the Archdemon". It doesn't matter how many battles he'd have won if the Archdemon kept coming back and killing all his guys.

Replies in bold.



#31
Han Shot First

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Word of Gaider says that Loghain would not have abandoned the field if he thought he could win the battle at Ostagar. He actually played it safe.

 

Gaider said a lot of things after DA:O was released that I choose to ignore.

 

He's a good writer but I also think he shares George Lucas' penchant for tinkering with a story after it was released. I tend to find that problematic. In DA:O's case if you factor in post-release twitter canon it reduces much of the plot of the game to complete nonsense. Howe & Loghain's actions don't make a lick of sense unless they were part of a conspiracy that had the murder of both Cailan & the Couslands pre-planned & coordinated.

 

It's one thing to say Loghain failed Cailan. That much he doesn't personally deny, if we take his cut content in the Fade as anything to go by. It's another thing to start saying "you're a kingkiller!" when he isn't.

 

Except he is a regicide.

 

He abandoned Cailan at Ostagar knowing he would die. That he uses the darkspawn as proxies doesn't absolve him of treason.


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#32
Eliastion

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Gaider said a lot of things after DA:O was released that I choose to ignore.

 

He's a good writer but I also think he shares George Lucas' penchant for tinkering with a story after it was released. I tend to find that problematic. In DA:O's case if you factor in post-release twitter canon it reduces much of the plot of the game to complete nonsense. Howe & Loghain's actions don't make a lick of sense unless they were part of a conspiracy that had the murder of both Cailan & the Couslands pre-planned & coordinated.

 

 

 

 

Except he is a regicide.

 

He abandoned Cailan at Ostagar knowing he would die. That he uses the darkspawn as proxies doesn't absolve him of treason.

But Loghain's belief that he would indeed join the battle if he thought it could be won doesn't come from Gaider's later interviews. It's one of the dialogue/scene comments found in the game files...


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#33
TEWR

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Gaider said a lot of things after DA:O was released that I choose to ignore.

 

He's a good writer but I also think he shares George Lucas' penchant for tinkering with a story after it was released. I tend to find that problematic. In DA:O's case if you factor in post-release twitter canon it reduces much of the plot of the game to complete nonsense. Howe & Loghain's actions don't make a lick of sense unless they were part of a conspiracy that had the murder of both Cailan & the Couslands pre-planned & coordinated.

 

 

 

 

Except he is a regicide.

 

He abandoned Cailan at Ostagar knowing he would die. That he uses the darkspawn as proxies doesn't absolve him of treason.

 

Loghain had more to gain from the Couslands remaining alive then he did them dead.

 

I'm sure the fact that he repeatedly warned Cailan to stay off the damn field of battle matters little.


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#34
TEWR

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But Loghain's belief that he would indeed join the battle if he thought it could be won doesn't come from Gaider's later interviews. It's one of the dialogue/scene comments found in the game files...

 

Indeed. As I recall he says it at the Landsmeet if you use Ostagar/Cailan as an attack on him.



#35
DontWakeTheBear

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Except he is a regicide.

 

He abandoned Cailan at Ostagar knowing he would die. That he uses the darkspawn as proxies doesn't absolve him of treason.

Treason maybe, but not regicide. Regicide is the deliberate killing of a monarch. Despite what some might have gathered from what I've written in the thread, I don't think Loghain had malicious intent towards Cailan when he retreated, therefore it wouldn't count for regicide. He didn't force his king to be killed, but he did abandon his king in his moment of need, so the treason could easily stick though.



#36
Monica21

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That completely ignores that the only reason there was a civil war is because Loghain decided to commit regicide. Civil wars often do follow on the heels of monarchs being murdered, so that result shouldn't have been unexpected. Also Loghain's awful timing illustrates how befuddled he was regarding Ferelden's strategic situation. He still views Orlais as a greater threat to Ferelden than the darkspawn at the very moment a Blight is being unleashed upon it.

 

Underestimating your opponents is one of the cardinal sins of a military commander, and Loghain does it with the darkspawn. 

 

That's naive, at best. There is a civil war because a Bann who wasn't present at Ostagar questioned the timing of Loghain's retreat. You remember how Cailan died, right? An ogre turned him into a human-sized ketchup packet. You're ignoring line of sight, the late signal, Loghain's repeated pleas that Cailan not fight on the front lines, the fact that Loghain couldn't possibly have known where Cailan was on the field, that charging from cover to find the king would have revealed his troops position to the enemy, and calling it regicide. Nicely done.

 

Teagan was the one who refused to send troops to aid in fighting the darkspawn and instead decided it was a good idea to push Loghain out of the way instead of dealing with the actual threat. You say Loghain thought the real threat was Orlais, and I say that the Ferelden nobles thought the real threat was Loghain.

 

And since you brought it up, let's talk about the darkspawn and this Blight, shall we? No one knew it was a Blight except for the Wardens. Even Cailan questioned whether it was a Blight. Sure, he liked the idea of it, "riding with the fabled Grey Wardens against a tainted god" but he even admits he doesn't believe it's a blight. The Wardens aren't eager to tell anyone they know it's a Blight because of a blood magic ritual, so of course everyone's questioning it, even people who aren't named Loghain. You say he underestimated his enemy, and I say that he had no idea who the enemy was. Was it the Orlesians camped on the border? Was it the Wardens who, not that long ago, almost got Maric killed and tried to turn all of humanity into blighted creatures? The darkspawn are a simple threat that he can fight and kill. Not knowing something because a very secretive organization has decided not to tell the truth doesn't make Loghain a stupid and irrational commander. It makes him a commander who's left deliberately in the dark by the very people who need him the most.


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#37
Monica21

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Treason maybe, but not regicide. Regicide is the deliberate killing of a monarch. Despite what some might have gathered from what I've written in the thread, I don't think Loghain had malicious intent towards Cailan when he retreated, therefore it wouldn't count for regicide. He didn't force his king to be killed, but he did abandon his king in his moment of need, so the treason could easily stick though.

 

 

If Loghain didn't have malicious intent then it's not treason either. He can't save both his king and his troops, so he chooses to save his troops. No one man is more important than Ferelden, and that includes its king.



#38
Riot Inducer

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Gaider said a lot of things after DA:O was released that I choose to ignore.

 

He's a good writer but I also think he shares George Lucas' penchant for tinkering with a story after it was released. I tend to find that problematic. In DA:O's case if you factor in post-release twitter canon it reduces much of the plot of the game to complete nonsense. Howe & Loghain's actions don't make a lick of sense unless they were part of a conspiracy that had the murder of both Cailan & the Couslands pre-planned & coordinated.

Agreed, given that both the Cousland murders and the poisoning of Arl Eamon were put into motion before Ostagar it only makes sense if Loghain was attempting to eliminate Cailan's strongest supporters before usurping Cailan himself.

 

Perhaps Ostagar was an impossible battle and became a convenient method of ridding himself of the king. But his other actions only point to the idea that he was planning on usurping or eliminating Cailan in some fashion. It also makes more sense given Cailan's correspondence with Empress Celene, Loghain fought his whole life to free Ferelden of the Orlesians, discovering Cailain could potentially unite the two again would certainly drive him to stop it by any means necessary. 


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#39
teh DRUMPf!!

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Gaider said a lot of things after DA:O was released that I choose to ignore.

 

He's a good writer but I also think he shares George Lucas' penchant for tinkering with a story after it was released. I tend to find that problematic. In DA:O's case if you factor in post-release twitter canon it reduces much of the plot of the game to complete nonsense.

 

Sure, but this is not one of those times. In-game, Loghain was pleading with Cailan not to charge.



#40
TEWR

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On the Cousland thing:

 

Cecilia, on 16 Feb 2015 - 9:52 PM, said:snapback.png

Do we know for a fact Loghain wasn't complicit? I do remember seeing other players stating that Howe wouldn't have done what he did without knowing that he had the political backing of Loghain. 

 

There are also varying cultural norms - if we're in Orlais, poisoning another person is probably par for the course, but Ferelden is implied to be more akin to the North in ASoIaF - people who value honor and loyalty and aboveboardness and look down on that sneaky Orlesian backstabbery.

 

The devs confirmed it eons ago, but the quote where it was overtly stated has fallen into obscurity. I don't blame a person for taking what I say with a grain of salt, but logistically Howe had to have been planning his assault on Highever before news of the Blight even reached people. Storming a castle with your forces isn't something you can just plan out quickly. You have to have all kinds of things mapped out.

 

In the HN origin, it's stated Duncan spotted the horde 3 weeks prior to the opening. It's also stated that Bryce only received the call a few days ago, and then he sent the call out to Howe to get his forces.

 

The Blight just happened to coincide with Howe's treachery and Howe amassed enough power that Loghain wasn't going to alienate him, in my book. Because for Loghain to have backed Howe, it would have to mean that Loghain was planning to kill off Cailan just because when there was no exterior threat to the nation. The entire premise of peoples' belief that the two were colluding is that Loghain did it to remove a threat to his hopes that he could unify Ferelden under his banner.

 

Basically, because it would take time to plan, time before the Blight was even discovered, for the two to have been working together all that time makes Loghain seem like a power-mad villain who holds no sense of loyalty. If the idea of the two of them was to work and for Loghain to preserve his image to the players, it would have to rely on the Blight being the basis for the treachery in the name of the greater good.

 

None of that can happen in three weeks' time when your king has tasked you with amassing forces and going to Ostagar, where you're the one instrumental in every victory they've had thus far. When you've been at Ostagar for those three weeks, in fact.

 

Besides, Loghain would have more to gain from Bryce staying alive then Bryce being dead. Bryce is a royalist and a shrewd puppy in his own right. He would've supported Loghain and Anora (if perhaps worked to calm Loghain down from his actions for other roads to walk), helped the Bannorn see reason, and perhaps proposed that his younger son marry Anora.

 

To increase his own family's standing, to help the nation be peaceful, and no doubt because somewhere the Couslands must have some Theirin blood. If Sophia Dryden did (and she did) and she was just an Arlessa then surely a teyrn's family would as well.

 

Plus Bryce would've been at Ostagar and seen firsthand how disastrous it was, assuming he couldn't have 1) helped Cailan see reason or 2) the battle plan would've been the same despite the presence of Bryce's full forces and Howe's, were Howe not a treacherous weasel.

 

As for Ferelden and poison, Ferelden is a nation of short-sighted lords who have been known to go to war with each other over trees. TREES. Poison is really not that far out of the ballpark for them (and IIRC, historical lords and ladies of Ferelden have used it before anyway)

 

---------

 

EDIT: Hell, Arland used poison.



#41
Monica21

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Gaider said a lot of things after DA:O was released that I choose to ignore.

 

 

Author intent is kind of like science, if I may inelegantly paraphrase Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it isn't true.



#42
DontWakeTheBear

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If Loghain didn't have malicious intent then it's not treason either. He can't save both his king and his troops, so he chooses to save his troops. No one man is more important than Ferelden, and that includes its king.

You can commit treason without having malicious intent. Treason in it's most simple form is merely betraying your king, kingdom, or legally raised leader. I'd say that abandoning your king and his men to be killed by soulless abominations could count as treason, of course the count for treason often matter's on who is left standing at the end and how they can spin it.



#43
Cecilia

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You've played enough BioWare games to know that many players are suckers for the insubordinate soldier who knows better than his superior, and for the general who knows how to Get Things Done instead of the feckless political leaders. I don't find it odd at all that Loghain gets over for these things.

 

I've softened towards Loghain since visiting the forums and learning about him outside of just DA:O but Loghain-worship has so many shades of Tywin-worship it makes me sick  :P

 

I may no longer think he's EVULFORTHELULZ but I still think he's a pretty delusional psycho who has some pretty questionable ends justifying the means mentality (I know a lot of people think like that - even the Wardens - but guys, realistically, our entire lives and history are just a means. As Keynes states, in the LR, we're all dead. Means matter. Unjustified means make unjustified ends, that's the whole reason we have just war theory)

 

Not to say I like Cailan. So much facepalming *sighs*


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#44
Monica21

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You can commit treason without having malicious intent. Treason in it's most simple form is merely betraying your king, kingdom, or legally raised leader. I'd say that abandoning your king and his men to be killed by soulless abominations could count as treason, of course the count for treason often matter's on who is left standing at the end and how they can spin it.

 

You'd be wrong.



#45
DontWakeTheBear

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You'd be wrong.

That's a rather high and mighty attitude. I admitted what i'd said about the situation was an opinion, what's your basis for your comment as fact? Notice that when Loghain returned from Ostagar, he didn't say "Hey guy's, we were badly outnumbered and I fell back because if I'd gone in then we'd have lost everybody", what he does do is say that the Warden's betrayed and killed the King and he barely escaped. If he'd have told the truth then he'd be charged with treason and killed.


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#46
JaegerBane

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I've softened towards Loghain since visiting the forums and learning about him outside of just DA:O but Loghain-worship has so many shades of Tywin-worship it makes me sick :P

I may no longer think he's EVULFORTHELULZ but I still think he's a pretty delusional psycho who has some pretty questionable ends justifying the means mentality (I know a lot of people think like that - even the Wardens - but guys, realistically, our entire lives and history are just a means. As Keynes states, in the LR, we're all dead. Means matter. Unjustified means make unjustified ends, that's the whole reason we have just war theory)

Not to say I like Cailan. So much facepalming *sighs*


+1. I can understand Loghain's logic but having some rough logic to one's actions doesn't automatically mean it's justifiable. Disregarding Warden warnings, trying to make a power grab with opponents on all sides and instigating a civil war as his first response to resistance was all just plain idiocy, the mark of a man who simply wasn't fit to be in the position he was in.

I don't blame him for being mistrustful of Cailin with the whole celene thing, though. But, as before, it doesn't equate to justification to risk his entire country because he's a bit cheesed off his daughter is getting side-lined. This guys is supposed to be one of the common people raised to nobility, not some pampered princeling with his head in the clouds.

#47
Monica21

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That's a rather high and mighty attitude. I admitted what i'd said about the situation was an opinion, what's your basis for your comment as fact? Notice that when Loghain returned from Ostagar, he didn't say "Hey guy's, we were badly outnumbered and I fell back because if I'd gone in then we'd have lost everybody", what he does do is say that the Warden's betrayed and killed the King and he barely escaped. If he'd have told the truth then he'd be charged with treason and killed.

 

Yes, it is a high and mighty attitude. *shrug*

 

And the basis for my opinion is that it's very difficult to "accidentally" commit treason, unless you're a character in an Aaron Sorkin TV series. War is difficult. It sucks. Cailan's insistence on fighting on the front lines was what doomed him, not Loghain's retreat. All of those things I listed previously including line of sight, not knowing where Cailan was, and Loghain putting his own troops at risk by charging from cover and trying to find Cailan were legitimate factors in Loghain's decision to retreat without trying to save Cailan. Cailan should have known what he was risking. If he didn't know, then he is more foolish than I thought.

 

Next time you play through the Landsmeet, see how much traction you get with the nobles if you bring up Ostagar.


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#48
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If Loghain didn't have malicious intent then it's not treason either. He can't save both his king and his troops, so he chooses to save his troops. No one man is more important than Ferelden, and that includes its king.

 

And is a promise he made to his best friend, King Maric, to never put a single man's life over that of Ferelden again. 

 

Maric was ticked that Loghain saved his life and nearly jeopardized the rebellion. 


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#49
dragonflight288

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Next time you play through the Landsmeet, see how much traction you get with the nobles if you bring up Ostagar.

 

I think the only thing that happens is that you get that one noble who always votes for the wardens to make a comment. But nothing else happens and no one is convinced. 



#50
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That's naive, at best. There is a civil war because a Bann who wasn't present at Ostagar questioned the timing of Loghain's retreat.


That's a bit of a stretch. It's a long way from saying "we won't do what you want simply because you tell us to" to actually going to war. More importantly, there's no way Teagan could even have fought that war, because he was holed up in Redcliffe immediately afterward with no outside communications.

An entirely valid alternative reading is that Teagan represented a suspicious opinion among many banns, one that was eminently justifiable. They had seen their fellow nobles, their King, Loghain, and a bunch of Grey Wardens march into the Wilds to fight darkspawn; they then saw what was left of the army running hell bent for leather out of the Wilds, minus a king, all his Wardens, and a sizable chunk of the army. Loghain blamed everybody but himself for the defeat and immediately set about making himself de facto ruler of Ferelden.

Under those circumstances, it would be entirely reasonable to question Loghain's account of events. So too would it be reasonable to point out that he wasn't the leader of the country and the bannorn were under no obligation to simply follow his orders if they weren't inclined to do so. And it would be reasonable to question, if Loghain failed to defeat the darkspawn with the forces he lost at Ostagar, why he should be entrusted with anything else. It's well and good to point out that Loghain (probably) had no direct knowledge of why the Wardens were necessary to deal with the Blight (a common tack of Loghain's biggest fans, including, if I'm not mistaken, you yourself), but it's a little tendentious to then turn around and say that the bannorn should simply have done what he demanded without questioning, as though Loghain were any different in this respect from the Wardens.

Teagan's comments were not intrinsically an act of rebellion. Perhaps, given the rapidity with which Loghain seized power, they were instead a suggestion to negotiate: they would not bow to Loghain simply because he demanded it, but perhaps they would do so if he gave them some sort of positive reason. A charitable reading of Loghain's actions after Ostagar is that he wanted to restore order quickly and unite the country against the (darkspawn/Orlesian/nug/whatever) threat, but even if this was the case, the actions he took to do so were functionally indistinguishable from a coup d'état, and people generally need more to go along with such a coup than "because I said so". And, even if Loghain were a genuinely disinterested actor, surely even his most die-hard supporters would concede that he was a singularly unpersuasive politician; the civil war may simply have started because he refused to explain his actions to anybody.

Anyway, it's extremely easy to explain the events after Ostagar without saying that that the bannorn launched a suicidal war against Loghain because reasons. That doesn't mean that you're wrong; perhaps the bannorn did exactly that, but there's simply no evidentiary basis for it one way or the other.

Not that an evidentiary basis would mean much anyway, considering the extent to which the developers alter and retcon the story based on their whims at the time. Ostagar has gone from being Loghain's fault (Origins) to Cailan's fault (Return to Ostagar) to Loghain's fault again (DA2) to an easy joke at the fans' expense (Threnn in Inquisition) to an event with an unknowable explanation that the devs are clearly interested in keeping ambiguous (Solas in Inquisition). They might very well decide something else tomorrow, in service of a different story. Trying to determine objectively correct lore explanations for virtually anything is a fool's errand.
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