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Loghain's Broodmothers


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#76
Eliastion

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Better yet, just give all the woman knives to off themselves if worse comes to worse. Tell the women enough to see death is a blessing if caught by darkspawn.  

My female elf warden always have a knife hidden on her...just in case. :unsure:

The "give all the women knives" is why I say that it's not necessarily worth it to reduce your numbers by excluding female soldiers (though if you need to leave some forces back while sending an army to fight darkspawn in the field, I'd definitely consider dividing the forces based on gender if there were no important reasons to keep some mixed forces (say, some elites that work extremely well together). The problem, as I said, is with civilian woman. A soldier, when told what awaits her, is relatively likely to make a use of the knife (though even for her it's not that easy, that's why I propose the system where soldiers start by helping each other with death if only possible). With a civilian it's a different story. She will KNOW she has nothing to lose and should end her life, but it's not that easy to do in practice. And then she may end up pretty much paralyzed by fear...

If people were rational and we could count on untrained civilian to do the rational thing and commit suicide if given no other choice, giving them means to commit said suicide would be, indeed the ideal solutions. But I fear the actual efficiency could not be as high as it should be. Survival instinct is a strong drive and if the darkspawn actually WANT to capture live people, a moment of hesitation might be too much - they reach their victim, take the knife away, bind her so that she's unable to free herself or cause any harm to herself.

Fortunately darkspawn in presence of Archdemon seem to be somewhat drunk on its Song and are a bit too dumb to employ such tactics on larger scale...



#77
Eliastion

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Okay, let's rewrite Ostagar here as a thought exercise. Let's say that Loghain, Cailan, Alistair, and your Warden all know it's a true Blight and they know why. We'll assume that non-Wardens really don't like how the Wardens know it's a Blight, but they believe it.

 

The Orlesians were driven out of Ferelden 30 years ago, after an 80-year occupation. During that occupation they did things like raise taxes to the point that your common farmers (like the Mac Tirs) couldn't afford to pay them for the specific purpose of driving them off the land and giving that land to Orlesian nobles.

 

During the Third Blight the Orlesians entered Nevarra to "help" defeat the Blight and didn't leave. You have 4 legions of Chevaliers camped on the Ferelden border, along with Orlesian Wardens.

 

And we'll assume that since we're young and green that we haven't played through RtO yet and don't know about Cailan's plan to marry Celene. Knowing just those things about the Blight and the Orlesian occupation, do you let both the Chevaliers into Ferelden along with the Orlesian Wardens? Bigger question, do you trust the Chevaliers to leave when the Blight is over?

Do we know (and believe) that only a Warden can actually kill the Archdemon ending the Blight? That's an important question ;) 



#78
Monica21

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Do we know (and believe) that only a Warden can actually kill the Archdemon ending the Blight? That's an important question ;)

 

Yes! Forgot about that. Or, at least, Loghain and Cailan have been told why a Warden is necessary. ;) In other words, do Loghain and Cailan believe it?



#79
Eliastion

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Well, the answer seems to be: invite the Gray Wardens (they claim to be politically neutral so it doesn't seem like they can openly support Orlais without risking their position in Thedas in general). Hold the Chevaliers, however. They are less useful in terrain you generally have in Ferelden and they can't be trusted - unless our scouting reveals the Darkspawn to be too numerous to stop without that additional help - don't let them in*. Having Wardens and a true Blight on your hands, you also try to gather any additional allies you can - you can try and get Dalish and Dwarves support, you also pressure the Grand Cleric so that she orders mobilization of the Circle - that should shut the Knight Commander up good. It would be also a good idea to appeal to Gray Wardens from Free Marches, Antiva and Nevarra, they could potentially reinforce the GW ranks AND make them less Orlaisian.

Obviously, all those things I'm talking about take time, so you don't try and engage the horde at Ostagar (not with the intention of stopping it there, at least). It won't be pretty, some land will be lost before we even engage Blight seriously, but we're talking about relatively scarcely populated South, those are mainly forests and mashes. What we must protect at all cost is Bannorn, that's the heart of Ferelden. Redcliffe and Gwaren also have to be defended. Lothering and the lands south of it perhaps can be sacrificed and to large extent evacuated if you put your mind to it while playing for time till the nobles, Circle and potential Dalish/Orzammar or from over the see reinforcements gather.

Of course, all this strategy only has sense if you can shut Cailan up. And this guy doesn't seem like one that would be willing to let Darkspawn enter Ferelden without a fight regardless of how hopeless this fight would be. Basically, the king can potentially f*ck everything up by refusing to sacrifice anything to gain the time necessary for mobilization.

 

But that's my opinion, I'm not one of the Loghain haters and I do see Orlais as a serious threat from Fereldan point of view ;)

 

*There does exist a possibility to use them relatively safely if you let them come and carefully arrange it so that they don't have their own logistics and must rely on the supplies you provide - so if they turn on you their battle potential will drop rapidly. But even then that's a huge risk, especially if Orlais manages to draw in some treacherous nobles... I definitely can see Howe as he is in DA:O selling Ferelden off to Orlais.


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#80
Monica21

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All pretty much what I was thinking I'd do. Pull back to Lothering and evacuate it and everything south, secure Redcliffe, the Bannorn, and Gwaren, invite everyone except Orlais, but their Wardens can come, and hold off the darkspawn until the Archdemon shows up.

 

I do see Orlais as a serious threat from Fereldan point of view ;)

 

One big, looming issue is of course, origin. I play a Cousland so I don't think I'm in the minority of seeing the threat Orlais poses to Ferelden. An elf or dwarf is going to have a much different perspective however. If my canon Warden was a city elf, I doubt I'd care much and just think, hell, I'm not a Ferelden citizen. What do I care who's doing the fighting? As a Cousland it's very difficult for me to separate my ties to Ferelden.


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#81
leaguer of one

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The "give all the women knives" is why I say that it's not necessarily worth it to reduce your numbers by excluding female soldiers (though if you need to leave some forces back while sending an army to fight darkspawn in the field, I'd definitely consider dividing the forces based on gender if there were no important reasons to keep some mixed forces (say, some elites that work extremely well together). The problem, as I said, is with civilian woman. A soldier, when told what awaits her, is relatively likely to make a use of the knife (though even for her it's not that easy, that's why I propose the system where soldiers start by helping each other with death if only possible). With a civilian it's a different story. She will KNOW she has nothing to lose and should end her life, but it's not that easy to do in practice. And then she may end up pretty much paralyzed by fear...

If people were rational and we could count on untrained civilian to do the rational thing and commit suicide if given no other choice, giving them means to commit said suicide would be, indeed the ideal solutions. But I fear the actual efficiency could not be as high as it should be. Survival instinct is a strong drive and if the darkspawn actually WANT to capture live people, a moment of hesitation might be too much - they reach their victim, take the knife away, bind her so that she's unable to free herself or cause any harm to herself.

Fortunately darkspawn in presence of Archdemon seem to be somewhat drunk on its Song and are a bit too dumb to employ such tactics on larger scale...

Fear is a hell of a drug.

 

In japan up to ww2, japanese women would kill themselves in a ritual called Jigaki to prevent rape if loss was going to happen.  So if enough fear is given....

Added this is a really hard topic to talk about.



#82
Monica21

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Fear is a hell of a drug.

 

In japan up to ww2, japanese women would kill them in a Jigaki to prevent rape if loss was going to happen.  So if enough fear is give....

Added this is a really hard topic to talk about.

 

There was a long discussion back on the old forums and basically everyone who had a female Warden agreed that when it was time to go to the Deep Roads, we'd all make sure Zevran would make us a nice, poisonous concoction to prevent us from becoming Broodmothers. That was a tough thread.



#83
leaguer of one

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One big, looming issue is of course, origin. I play a Cousland so I don't think I'm in the minority of seeing the threat Orlais poses to Ferelden. An elf or dwarf is going to have a much different perspective however. If my canon Warden was a city elf, I doubt I'd care much and just think, hell, I'm not a Ferelden citizen. What do I care who's doing the fighting? As a Cousland it's very difficult for me to separate my ties to Ferelden.

What threat?

 

Anyone who sees this is just fools jump at ghost at this point. How can that be worse then being that kill things by just being?



#84
leaguer of one

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There was a long discussion back on the old forums and basically everyone who had a female Warden agreed that when it was time to go to the Deep Roads, we'd all make sure Zevran would make us a nice, poisonous concoction to prevent us from becoming Broodmothers. That was a tough thread.

Oh...god it must have.

My warden was a femalecity  elf who specialise in poisons.



#85
dragonflight288

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What threat?

 

Anyone who sees this is just fools jump at ghost at this point. How can that be worse then being that kill things by just being?

 

Orlais is a threat. It's pretty much confirmed they were planning on taking back Ferelden. Celene was hoping to do it through marriage rather than force. They want, what they see, their lost province back. 

 

The darkspawn are most certainly the larger threat, but the threat Orlais poses to Ferelden's independence also exists. 



#86
Cecilia

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There was a long discussion back on the old forums and basically everyone who had a female Warden agreed that when it was time to go to the Deep Roads, we'd all make sure Zevran would make us a nice, poisonous concoction to prevent us from becoming Broodmothers. That was a tough thread.

 

Can female Wardens be made into broodmothers even though they already bear the taint? 

 

Aside, but really someone should have just quietly taken a steel pot and conked Cailan over the head at Ostagar, knocking him out for the duration of the Blight.



#87
Monica21

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Can female Wardens be made into broodmothers even though they already bear the taint? 

 

Aside, but really someone should have just quietly taken a steel pot and conked Cailan over the head at Ostagar, knocking him out for the duration of the Blight.

 

The conclusion we came to was yes, and it might actually be easier. I can't remember an example we had, but tainted or not, all you have to do is eat tainted flesh, and if you're female and captured by darkspawn, well, that's not something that would be good. Hence, poison.



#88
Eliastion

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(...)

One big, looming issue is of course, origin. I play a Cousland so I don't think I'm in the minority of seeing the threat Orlais poses to Ferelden. An elf or dwarf is going to have a much different perspective however. If my canon Warden was a city elf, I doubt I'd care much and just think, hell, I'm not a Ferelden citizen. What do I care who's doing the fighting? As a Cousland it's very difficult for me to separate my ties to Ferelden.

You'd be surprised. It might not be shown clearly enough, but Orlais supposedly semi-officially declared elves to be property and started selling them. Also the talks you have as an elf with Leliana pretty clearly show that city elves generally don't like Orlais any more than human Fereldens. Elves in Ferelden consider themselves to be poor but free - and they indeed pretty much are. It's not a coincidence that Loghain managed to mobilize a bunch of servants, hookers and other elven low-life to form the Night Elves during Maric rebellion. As oppressed as city elves are in Ferelden, they still seem to view Orlais as "at least we don't live there" scenario and some are likely openly proud of being Fereldens... So I'd say that an average City Elf would have plenty reason to be as anti-Orlesian as it goes.

Situation of a Dalish is much more complicated. Dalish tend hate Orlais and they have their reasons - it's Orlais that destroyed the Dales and the clans living in Orlais tend to be among the more violent ones. However, Dalish are also often concerned about themselves only - the average Dalish Warden wouldn't really care all that much about Ferelden and hatred of Orlais alone is pretty weak motivation to not advocate involving Chevaliers if it boosts the chances against the Blight. Everything is, obviously, shaped by individual not "racial" outlook, but when we're talking stereotypes, a Dalish would likely want to just have the strongest army possible to stop the Blight. He would definitely prefer Ferelden to Orlais, but that would be just a sympathy of someone who watches human wars from the outside and doesn't feel as if they really have anything to do with him personally.

A dwarf would likely be even less involved than a Dalish. Dwarves are treated relatively well everywhere, a dwarf from Orzammar doesn't really have any personal ties with Ferelden (it could be different for someone born a surfacer, but dwarf origin gives us a recent exile). Indeed, for a dwarf even Blight itself doesn't seem as personal as for other wardens - "stupid people of the surface see the end of the world, we in Orzammar call it Tuesday".

As for mages, it all depends, a lot. You're not really given the age at which you ended up in the Circle, so your Warden can feel a strong connection with other Fereldens/city elves or he can feel nothing of this sort. A mage that considers himself a mage above everything else would likely be in Dalish-like situation: he has his sympathies (Ferelden being his home country and all that) but any possible war between Orlais and Ferelden (or possibility of new occupation of Ferelden) likely wouldn't concern him enough to not want Chevaliers' assistance. Sure, he would prefer them to go home after it's over, but them stayingisn't by any means a personal threat for him.

So, in general, a Cousland or city elf would be likely to consider sovereignty of Ferelden to be of great value in and of itself, a Dalish, dwarf or a mage with no strong ties to his "previous" life would likely just focus on the Blight and if it ends in another period of Orlesian occupation - so be it.

 

At least that's how I perceive it :D And, obviously, a Warden is a person and doesn't necessarily need to have some "average" or "typical" for his origin views on things. Oh, and when you think of it - the Warden wouldn't really have much to say :D After all, we're talking about a situation where Cailan, Loghain and Duncan, possibly with Anora and some other nobles, put together a long-term strategy ;) And they all have their own opinions concerning (un)importance of freedom of Ferelden, regardless of what some Gray Warden recruit could think about the issue ;)


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#89
Eliastion

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Can female Wardens be made into broodmothers even though they already bear the taint? 

(...)

Perhaps not. A female warden would DEFINITELY not want to find out.



#90
Master Warder Z_

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Perhaps not. A female warden would DEFINITELY not want to find out.


Mmm good question.

I'd investigate that.

#91
dragonflight288

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You'd be surprised. It might not be shown clearly enough, but Orlais supposedly semi-officially declared elves to be property and started selling them. Also the talks you have as an elf with Leliana pretty clearly show that city elves generally don't like Orlais any more than human Fereldens. Elves in Ferelden consider themselves to be poor but free - and they indeed pretty much are. It's not a coincidence that Loghain managed to mobilize a bunch of servants, hookers and other elven low-life to form the Night Elves during Maric rebellion. As oppressed as city elves are in Ferelden, they still seem to view Orlais as "at least we don't live there" scenario and some are likely openly proud of being Fereldens... So I'd say that an average City Elf would have plenty reason to be as anti-Orlesian as it goes.

Situation of a Dalish is much more complicated. Dalish tend hate Orlais and they have their reasons - it's Orlais that destroyed the Dales and the clans living in Orlais tend to be among the more violent ones. However, Dalish are also often concerned about themselves only - the average Dalish Warden wouldn't really care all that much about Ferelden and hatred of Orlais alone is pretty weak motivation to not advocate involving Chevaliers if it boosts the chances against the Blight. Everything is, obviously, shaped by individual not "racial" outlook, but when we're talking stereotypes, a Dalish would likely want to just have the strongest army possible to stop the Blight. He would definitely prefer Ferelden to Orlais, but that would be just a sympathy of someone who watches human wars from the outside and doesn't feel as if they really have anything to do with him personally.

A dwarf would likely be even less involved than a Dalish. Dwarves are treated relatively well everywhere, a dwarf from Orzammar doesn't really have any personal ties with Ferelden (it could be different for someone born a surfacer, but dwarf origin gives us a recent exile). Indeed, for a dwarf even Blight itself doesn't seem as personal as for other wardens - "stupid people of the surface see the end of the world, we in Orzammar call it Tuesday".

As for mages, it all depends, a lot. You're not really given the age at which you ended up in the Circle, so your Warden can feel a strong connection with other Fereldens/city elves or he can feel nothing of this sort. A mage that considers himself a mage above everything else would likely be in Dalish-like situation: he has his sympathies (Ferelden being his home country and all that) but any possible war between Orlais and Ferelden (or possibility of new occupation of Ferelden) likely wouldn't concern him enough to not want Chevaliers' assistance. Sure, he would prefer them to go home after it's over, but them stayingisn't by any means a personal threat for him.

So, in general, a Cousland or city elf would be likely to consider sovereignty of Ferelden to be of great value in and of itself, a Dalish, dwarf or a mage with no strong ties to his "previous" life would likely just focus on the Blight and if it ends in another period of Orlesian occupation - so be it.

 

At least that's how I perceive it :D And, obviously, a Warden is a person and doesn't necessarily need to have some "average" or "typical" for his origin views on things. Oh, and when you think of it - the Warden wouldn't really have much to say :D After all, we're talking about a situation where Cailan, Loghain and Duncan, possibly with Anora and some other nobles, put together a long-term strategy ;) And they all have their own opinions concerning (un)importance of freedom of Ferelden, regardless of what some Gray Warden recruit could think about the issue ;)

 

I don't know. A dwarven noble who who is named the Hero of Ferelden would probably have enough political know-how to know that he is a symbol to Ferelden and its people and would be a viable target to Orlais as a way to hammer Ferelden's morale. 

 

They probably wouldn't care about who is in charge, but may be concerned about survival. 

 

It also depends on how that particular dwarf is roleplayed.



#92
Monica21

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What threat?

 

Anyone who sees this is just fools jump at ghost at this point. How can that be worse then being that kill things by just being?

 

As stated, the threat is to Ferelden's independence. As I stated when I mentioned the previous 80-year occupation by the Orlesians. I mean, I think you'd assume that Ferelden would defeat the Blight but not without heavy casualties and a severely weakened military, leaving it susceptible to long-term occupation. If nothing else, Orlais has shown that it wants Ferelden.



#93
dragonflight288

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As stated, the threat is to Ferelden's independence. As I stated when I mentioned the previous 80-year occupation by the Orlesians. I mean, I think you'd assume that Ferelden would defeat the Blight but not without heavy casualties and a severely weakened military, leaving it susceptible to long-term occupation. If nothing else, Orlais has shown that it wants Ferelden.

 

King Alistair in DA2 outright says it as well. 



#94
Monica21

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King Alistair in DA2 outright says it as well. 

 

I think my Alistair is a drunk in DA2.  :whistle:  He says that the military is weakened?



#95
TEWR

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I think my Alistair is a drunk in DA2.  :whistle:  He says that the military is weakened?

 

He says that there are a lot of nobles in Orlais who want their lost province back and that Celene's "trying her best".


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#96
Monica21

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He says that there are a lot of nobles in Orlais who want their lost province back and that Celene's "trying her best".

 

Oh. How very sad that I buried Haven then. *insert crocodile tears*



#97
Eliastion

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I don't know. A dwarven noble who who is named the Hero of Ferelden would probably have enough political know-how to know that he is a symbol to Ferelden and its people and would be a viable target to Orlais as a way to hammer Ferelden's morale. 

 

They probably wouldn't care about who is in charge, but may be concerned about survival. 

 

It also depends on how that particular dwarf is roleplayed.

You're right, but we're generally talking about blight-related strategy, so we're dealing with the recruit that just went through Joining, not about the Hero of Ferelden. Obviously, a Warden that gets involved in Ferelden politics, involved with Ferelden people, spent a year saving the country and then became the hero is quite likely to develop some personal attachment. Not to mention that regardless of origin he can end up as a good friend (or even lover) of the new hing.

But before the Blight, before the Ostagar, the Warden is just a person with his Origin behind him and Blight in front of him.

Also, as I said, I generalized a lot while every Warden is a different person. You can have a Dalish that gets deeply involved and he won't stand for another country being enslaved by Orlais or you could have a Cousland that doesn't give a flying feather for Ferelden (especially if Howe did just murder his family and nobody really tries to punish him for it). There are plenty of explanations why a particular person would think in particular way ;) So, yeah, as you say - it pretty much depends on who you roleplay and any "standards" for particular origins are in absolutely no way binding for the actual Warden.


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#98
dragonflight288

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I think my Alistair is a drunk in DA2.  :whistle:  He says that the military is weakened?

 

No. King Alistair outright says there is stirring in Orlais and many of its nobles want the lost province back, meaning Ferelden. If he's ruling solo he also mentions he's having to deal with uppity nobles giving him problems as well as Orlais acting up.

 


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#99
Aimi

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It may a stretch, but the fact is that Teagan was the only noble in Denerim to publicly speak out against Loghain. He also likely didn't know he would be holed up in Redcliffe immediately after Denerim.

You will find very few (if any) Loghain supporters defending his political aptitude, but that's not the argument being presented. The argument is that Loghain ignored the darkspawn in favor of fighting a civil war when in fact the opposite is true. Loghain was forced into a civil war when what he needed were troops to fight the darkspawn. And in Loghain's defense, who else was there? Loghain is the only Teryn left and has more experience commanding an army than the rest of the nobles combined. He went about it incredibly poorly, but his title is earned and his experience is not meaningless. The nobility just seem to have very short memories, having somehow forgotten that Orlesians held their lands a mere 30 years ago.

I think your comparison of Loghain's knowledge of the Wardens and the Blight versus the nobility following Loghain is good, but still off. Loghain's reasons for mistrusting the Wardens and the Orlesians are well-established, at least for the player. Even Eamon says something like, "I know Loghain. He never wanted power." The nobility's distrust of Loghain is rooted in nothing more than him being born a commoner, and is more dislike that distrust.

The bannorn were not required to follow his orders, but by choosing not to where does that leave them? Exactly where they ended up, losing the civil war and losing their only commander, however it happens. This is the same bannorn that fought each other over what were essentially property-line disputes, so thinking that they went to war with Loghain because reasons is really not out of the realm of possibility, and there is in fact some evidence for it. There's a power vacuum, so nobles will fight.

Teagan may not have intended his comments to spark a rebellion, but if that is true then he can be accused of the same political ineptitude as Loghain. Publicly speaking against a higher-ranking noble, the father of your queen, and the leader of your armies is going to lead to the kind of reaction Teagan's comments ended up getting. Purposefully or not, he built support for a rebellion merely by stating it.


I'm not getting involved in the broader argument, because, as I said at the end of my post, I think it's completely pointless. The only item I was focusing on is the specific issue of Teagan's role in the outbreak of the civil war.

Your main argument in favor of "Teagan did it!" is "well, we don't see anyone else do it", but that's not an argument at all. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is certainly not a proof, which is what you seem to be using it as. Again: I agree that it's entirely possible to construct a narrative of the civil war that hinges on Teagan raising the issue of loyalty in Denerim and then, presumably, zipping off to Redcliffe and watching while the country explodes behind him. It is possible. It is not unquestionably true. There is no demonstrated causative link in the game between Teagan saying something and Ferelden turning into Roman Gaul c. 406 AD. There is, in fact, no thorough explanation of the outbreak of the civil war at all. It is perfectly possible, given the absence of a definitive answer, to insert a variety of headcanons in there: one might be that Teagan lit the fuse, but another might be that he didn't, and they are equally plausible and equally supported by the game, such as it is.

You're certainly entitled to your headcanon that Teagan did it, but pushing that on everybody else in the thread is a bit much.

The rest of the post is basically just window dressing. Even if every question that the bannorn might have raised had an answer - answers that in many cases depend on second- and third-order reasoning, headcanon, and argument - the fact of the matter is that the questions were still raised in the first place, and even if the answers you might give would explain Loghain's conduct to you they certainly wouldn't explain it to a skeptic. (And, again, that's presuming Loghain bothered to explain them at all.) They are not ironclad responses; there's enough room for doubt there that you could sail a dreadnought into it. Preaching to the choir is not an effective tactic for persuasion: not for Loghain, and not in this thread.

#100
leaguer of one

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Orlais is a threat. It's pretty much confirmed they were planning on taking back Ferelden. Celene was hoping to do it through marriage rather than force. They want, what they see, their lost province back. 

 

The darkspawn are most certainly the larger threat, but the threat Orlais poses to Ferelden's independence also exists. 

Dude, that's not  an invasion or a take over. That's a peace agreement. The entire point of the marriage was to ensure peace with fereldin in future and to strengthen the 2 countries from navarra and the qunari.

 Seriously Orlais was not a threat....Unless Gespard became emperor.