Dude, that's not an invasion or a take over. That's a peace agreement. The entire point of the marriage was to ensure peace with fereldin in future and to strengthen the 2 countries from navarra and the qunari.
Seriously Orlais was not a threat....Unless Gespard became emperor.
Loghain has some choice words for this "peace"
Dude, that's not an invasion or a take over. That's a peace agreement. The entire point of the marriage was to ensure peace with fereldin in future and to strengthen the 2 countries from navarra and the qunari.
Seriously Orlais was not a threat....Unless Gespard became emperor.
I hate defending Loghain in any capacity because I do despise the man, but historically your argument doesn't hold. It may be a peace agreement but that doesn't mean that it will be seen as such by the people of Ferelden. Anne of Austria, Marie Antoinette - the list of foreign born queens whose allegiances are questioned and who are unpopular with the people of the country they rule is quite long - and these queens are queens consort, whereas Celene would not only be a reigning queen in her own right, she actually holds the higher title of Empress. If Cailan had married Celene, there may very well have been a civil war as a result.
Dude, that's not an invasion or a take over. That's a peace agreement. The entire point of the marriage was to ensure peace with fereldin in future and to strengthen the 2 countries from navarra and the qunari.
Seriously Orlais was not a threat....Unless Gespard became emperor.
Wow, this was set up so beautifully and I didn't even plan it.
There's a bit of dialogue between Loghain and Wynne on this very subject, and Celene pretty much plans on using Ferelden the exact way Loghain describes.
Dialogue form Return to Ostagar.
Loghain has some choice words for this "peace"
Indeed. And he was right. Celene wasn't just trying to get Ferelden back to Orlais' hold, she was trying to use them against Nevarra as well.
"Peace just means fighting somebody else's enemies in somebody else's war for somebody else's reasons."
Beyond that, the fact is Ferelden would descend into chaos if such a "peace agreement" were to arise, split between various factions of anti-Orlesians, pro-Theirins, pro-peace people, and so on. Anora would be in a dangerous situation, as Celene would have to kill her to retain any sense of peace. Indeed, Loghain would also have to die, as he'd fight tooth and nail against seeing his daughter hang for some Orlesian plot.
Dude, that's not an invasion or a take over. That's a peace agreement. The entire point of the marriage was to ensure peace with fereldin in future and to strengthen the 2 countries from navarra and the qunari.
Seriously Orlais was not a threat....Unless Gespard became emperor.
Considering that Orlais and Ferelden were already at "peace" I fail to see how this "peace agreement" was even necessary. (Because it wasn't a peace agreement. It was a takeover. Celene says as much in The Masked Empire.)
You're certainly entitled to your headcanon that Teagan did it, but pushing that on everybody else in the thread is a bit much.
Well, of course I'm entitled to my opinion. And I fail to see how stating my opinion with supporting evidence is "pushing headcanon on everyone else." Everyone who's reading this thread does have a brain, I'm assuming.
There's a bit of dialogue between Loghain and Wynne on this very subject, and Celene pretty much plans on using Ferelden the exact way Loghain describes.
Dialogue form Return to Ostagar.
- Loghain: The cheating bastard!
- Wynne: Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!
- Loghain: It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?
- Wynne: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you.
- Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ******, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.
- Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
- Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.
- If Dog is with them, when Loghain calls Celene a ******, Dog will growl before Loghain continues the rest of what he is saying.
and TME confirms that is exactly what Celene was planning on doing. She was planning on marrying Cailan so that she could use Ferelden's resources to oppose Nevarra and Tevinter
- Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons.
Loghain has the best lines in the entire game.
"All I remember is a fool's death and a hard choice. I'd make the same again."
"What I want? What an odd question. I want to ride back to Denerim and sit in the war room and find no empty chairs at the table. I want to lose nothing else. I want a line, clearly drawn, that I can defend. I want an end to this war. All of this can rightly be called my fault. Whether or not you can do better remains to be seen. But if you can make it end, Warden, I will follow you. I swear it."
Loghain has some choice words for this "peace"
Too bad. As long as people like him are around there will be no peace. He's just a guy jumping at shadows.
Too bad. As long as people like him are around there will be no peace. He's just a guy jumping at shadows.
Good thing the Qunari will finally conquer everything and bring peace, then.
Considering that Orlais and Ferelden were already at "peace" I fail to see how this "peace agreement" was even necessary. (Because it wasn't a peace agreement. It was a takeover. Celene says as much in The Masked Empire.)
Wow, it's not like the nobles of orlais were not potitioning to regain their lost providence of Ferelden at all and the lead general of country was not trying to take Orlais over to invade Fereldin. 
Sorry, but both side had way too many bitter people to ensure what Fereldin and orlais had before the blight was a "peace".
Good thing the Qunari will finally conquer everything and bring peace, then.
Ironicly, all of Loghain's action would of helped them and Calin's plan to marry Cecilen would of hindered them.
Okay.
So Loghain made the right call at Ostagar and was proven to be ultimately right about an Orlesian Alliance being bad for Ferelden.
But let's not mix facts, Loghain shot himself in the foot the moment that he declared himself regent without the Landsmeet's approval.
Both Loghain and Anora (who deserves just as much blame) should have known better than to just declare Loghain as regent without any vote. If Loghain had kept his mouth shut and let Anora do all the talking (like she should have), the Landsmeet could be persuaded to at least agree to have Loghain as head general and Anora as ruling queen.
Instead, Loghain's political incompetence and inexcusable blindness to his own people's natures led to a Civil War.
The game also makes it clear that he did consider Orlais as a bigger threat than the darkspawn and that's just a bad strategic call. I'm sorry that Loghain lost his parents and dogs to the Orlesians, but you don't downplay a threat that's on your doorstep out of paranoia for an "enemy" that's relatively far away. The result of Loghain's lack of priority? The fall of the South including his own Terynir Gwaren with more darkspawn spreading into Ferelden unchecked and largely unchallenged thanks to the war that he started.
Making Howe the second strongest figure in Ferelden was also a bad call and a fundamental betrayal to Ferelden's laws and principles (discounting the plausibility of Loghain's involvement in the Cousland massacre). Not to mention that it also saps the Crown's finances in the worst time possible with Loghain being so inept that he either didn't know or couldn't do anything about it (either one is a check against the man) Loghain wasn't ignorant of Howe's actions, he even gave some people to Howe's men (such as the templar that was chasing Jowan) and sold slaves to the Evil Empire in the North. Do I even need to bring up using a known blood mage fugitive to poison Arl Eamon in defiance of Ferelden and Chantry Law?
Like Loghain or hate him, he needed to go or he would've destroyed the very nation that he was trying to protect. A sad irony in a sense.
and TME confirms that is exactly what Celene was planning on doing. She was planning on marrying Cailan so that she could use Ferelden's resources to oppose Nevarra and Tevinter
And the qunari. All opions would be better for fereldin in the long run.
Okay.
So Loghain made the right call at Ostagar and was proven to be ultimately right about an Orlesian Alliance being bad for Ferelden.
I would not say he made the right choice about the Orlesians.
Wow, it's not like the nobles of orlais were not potitioning to regain their lost providence of Ferelden at all and the lead general of country was not trying to take Orlais over to invade Fereldin.
Sorry, but both side had way too many bitter people to ensure what Fereldin and orlais had before the blight was a "peace".
Partly my fault, but you're mixing your time frames. The marriage arrangement was 9:30. The talk with Alistair about Orlesians was, what? 9:37? Gaspard is talking about invading Ferelden in 9:41.
When I mention Ferelden and Orlais being at peace, that's right before the Blight.
Partly my fault, but you're mixing your time frames. The marriage arrangement was 9:30. The talk with Alistair about Orlesians was, what? 9:37? Gaspard is talking about invading Ferelden in 9:41.
When I mention Ferelden and Orlais being at peace, that's right before the Blight.
Gaspard was talking about invading Ferelden long before 9:41. He's planned if from the first time he'd gunned for Emperor and 16 year old Celene took it from under him. He's been hounding her about it since. You'd know this if you read Masked Empire. He only let the Quis about his plans in 9:41.
Gaspard was talking about invading Ferelden long before 9:41. He's planned if from the first time he'd gunned for Emperor and 16 year old Celene took it from under him. He's been hounding her about it since. You'd know this if you read Masked Empire. He only let the Quis about his plans in 9:41.
And again, when I mention the peace between Ferelden and Orlais, that was 9:30, just before the Blight. Point being that since the two countries were presumably at peace (Bryce and Eleanor Cousland had recently returned from a visit to Orlais) there was no need for a "peace agreement."
And again, when I mention the peace between Ferelden and Orlais, that was 9:30, just before the Blight. Point being that since the two countries were presumably at peace (Bryce and Eleanor Cousland had recently returned from a visit to Orlais) there was no need for a "peace agreement."
Dude, You think Gespard would not make a move to try to invade Fereldin if no Blight had happened? Please. Not even the breach stop his focus on trying to become Emperor. He was not going to stop. The peace with Fereldin is just an illusion as long as he's part of Orlais and things stayed as they are. The only thing stopping Orlais' invasion would be the civil war that was going to happen.
Dude, You think Gespard would not make a move to try to invade Fereldin if no Blight had happened? Please. Not even the breach stop his focus on trying to become Emperor. He was not going to stop. The peace with Fereldin is just an illusion as long as he's part of Orlais and things stayed as they are. The only thing stopping Orlais' invasion would be the civil war that was going to happen.
Seeing as Celene didn't want the military invasion, civil war (that could result in Gaspard becoming the Emperor) didn't stop the invasion as much as made it more plausible. The thing is that Celene wanted to use Ferelden. And Ferelden proved to be a terrible country to "use" under occupation - you need a constant military presence on large scale just to keep it in your grasp, that's extremely counter-productive. Celene's ideas of political marriage or some other diplomatic solution that could bind Ferelden to Orlais had at the very least some potential. Militarily re-conquering Ferelden would be ruinous in short- and mid-term perspective with little chance of long-term perspective being any better. Ferelden isn't rich enough to be properly plundered and doesn't have a tradition of strong central government that could be forcibly replaced and quickly have things running smoothly again. Ferelden is a pain in the butt to rule. And that's even for rulers it picks for itself.
And again, when I mention the peace between Ferelden and Orlais, that was 9:30, just before the Blight. Point being that since the two countries were presumably at peace (Bryce and Eleanor Cousland had recently returned from a visit to Orlais) there was no need for a "peace agreement."
Peace was formalized in 9:13, I believe, when Celene became Empress. According to the wiki, at least. An official peace. So yes, like Monica says, Orlais and Ferelden were at peace. However, it wasn't a particularly stable peace. Gaspard and other Chevaliers and nobles did seem to want to conquer all of the territory Orlais had lost, including Ferelden.
Cailan's reference to making peace means sealing the deal rather than them both licking their wounds and preparing for the next invasion of Ferelden. As was common in medieval Europe, this alliance would be sealed by marriage. Cailan and Celene would produce a child that would be heir to both kingdoms, theoretically uniting them in interest, since both kingdoms would be the property of the other's royal family. Leon-Castile and Aragon pulled this off successfully, becoming Spain. However, a lot of these unions became quite messy, with one country rejecting the other, trying to become dominant, putting forward a powerful noble for the throne as a non-treacherous replacement. (Couslands would be perfect for that.)
For countries with as bitter a history as Ferelden and Orlais, and so recent, and two countries so different in culture and governing practices...
Cailan had an idealized vision of uniting the two countries and them both learning from each other. Celene wanted a secure border to the east, the reclaiming of an Orlesian territory, and more soldiers to ward off Tevinter and seize the territory Nevarra conquered during the Ferelden conflict.
As mentioned earlier, there is even precedent for Orlais sending soldiers into a country and using it as an excuse to annex the territory. Loghain was right to be paranoid about the Orlesian forces. While understandable, it was a much less astute call to outlaw the Grey Wardens and refuse them entry.
Good thing the Qunari will finally conquer everything and bring peace, then.
And if not, eventually the Reapers will arrive and bring order to the chaos.
Seeing as Celene didn't want the military invasion, civil war (that could result in Gaspard becoming the Emperor) didn't stop the invasion as much as made it more plausible. The thing is that Celene wanted to use Ferelden. And Ferelden proved to be a terrible country to "use" under occupation - you need a constant military presence on large scale just to keep it in your grasp, that's extremely counter-productive. Celene's ideas of political marriage or some other diplomatic solution that could bind Ferelden to Orlais had at the very least some potential. Militarily re-conquering Ferelden would be ruinous in short- and mid-term perspective with little chance of long-term perspective being any better. Ferelden isn't rich enough to be properly plundered and doesn't have a tradition of strong central government that could be forcibly replaced and quickly have things running smoothly again. Ferelden is a pain in the butt to rule. And that's even for rulers it picks for itself.
But that's not an invasion or fereldin under outside control. That's called being an alliance. The thing is that the people of fereldin dislike Orlais is because they would invade their country. With that comes all the deaths, crimes of war, and stripping of rights. If Celene is wedded to the king of fereldin none of the thing that happens in an invasion would happen and Fereldin would control there country as they see fit... What's the issue?
Peace was formalized in 9:13, I believe, when Celene became Empress. According to the wiki, at least. An official peace. So yes, like Monica says, Orlais and Ferelden were at peace. However, it wasn't a particularly stable peace. Gaspard and other Chevaliers and nobles did seem to want to conquer all of the territory Orlais had lost, including Ferelden.
Cailan's reference to making peace means sealing the deal rather than them both licking their wounds and preparing for the next invasion of Ferelden. As was common in medieval Europe, this alliance would be sealed by marriage. Cailan and Celene would produce a child that would be heir to both kingdoms, theoretically uniting them in interest, since both kingdoms would be the property of the other's royal family. Leon-Castile and Aragon pulled this off successfully, becoming Spain. However, a lot of these unions became quite messy, with one country rejecting the other, trying to become dominant, putting forward a powerful noble for the throne as a non-treacherous replacement. (Couslands would be perfect for that.)
For countries with as bitter a history as Ferelden and Orlais, and so recent, and two countries so different in culture and governing practices...
Cailan had an idealized vision of uniting the two countries and them both learning from each other. Celene wanted a secure border to the east, the reclaiming of an Orlesian territory, and more soldiers to ward off Tevinter and seize the territory Nevarra conquered during the Ferelden conflict.
As mentioned earlier, there is even precedent for Orlais sending soldiers into a country and using it as an excuse to annex the territory. Loghain was right to be paranoid about the Orlesian forces. While understandable, it was a much less astute call to outlaw the Grey Wardens and refuse them entry.
^This. Except for one thing. If the marrage with Cailen and Celene did happen all of Loghains fear of invasion would of ended.
Peace was formalized in 9:13, I believe, when Celene became Empress. According to the wiki, at least. An official peace. So yes, like Monica says, Orlais and Ferelden were at peace. However, it wasn't a particularly stable peace. Gaspard and other Chevaliers and nobles did seem to want to conquer all of the territory Orlais had lost, including Ferelden.
Cailan's reference to making peace means sealing the deal rather than them both licking their wounds and preparing for the next invasion of Ferelden. As was common in medieval Europe, this alliance would be sealed by marriage. Cailan and Celene would produce a child that would be heir to both kingdoms, theoretically uniting them in interest, since both kingdoms would be the property of the other's royal family. Leon-Castile and Aragon pulled this off successfully, becoming Spain. However, a lot of these unions became quite messy, with one country rejecting the other, trying to become dominant, putting forward a powerful noble for the throne as a non-treacherous replacement. (Couslands would be perfect for that.)
For countries with as bitter a history as Ferelden and Orlais, and so recent, and two countries so different in culture and governing practices...
Cailan had an idealized vision of uniting the two countries and them both learning from each other. Celene wanted a secure border to the east, the reclaiming of an Orlesian territory, and more soldiers to ward off Tevinter and seize the territory Nevarra conquered during the Ferelden conflict.
As mentioned earlier, there is even precedent for Orlais sending soldiers into a country and using it as an excuse to annex the territory. Loghain was right to be paranoid about the Orlesian forces. While understandable, it was a much less astute call to outlaw the Grey Wardens and refuse them entry.
I personally believe an alliance by marriage could be achieved (Cailan was quite well liked) but only if Celene remained really cautious to not make it into another occupation. Unfortunately, it would also depend on the nobles of Orlais and things gradually deteriorating to the level of occupation wouldn't be unlikely... Still, political means are the only way for Orlais to really benefit from "having" Ferelden.
While I am not sure about the results of marriage, though, one thing I am pretty convinced of - a personal union (that is, having a common ruler for Orlais and Ferelden) couldn't really work for one important reaso - the power in Ferelden does not start with the king "owning" the country. The power is, in fact, considered to start with the land-owners (freeholders) that decide what noble they support (the nobles set the taxes but a freeholder can change his "sovereign") so that he can pay for upkeep of his army protecting the land (and taxpayers). This is to some extent a fiction - a village deep in sphere of influence of particular Bann won't really go to any other since that one just couldn't protect them... also from "accidental" reminders the old protector would discretely issue... but the theory is there. And it goes up in such a way that the nobles representing their lands feel pretty strong. And the king himself is pretty much the chosen representative rather than semi-divine figure with sacred authority given by the Maker. Basically, while kings generally don't lose their thrones, they need nobles' approval to sit there and to efficiently rule. With history of Orlais and Ferelden it seems EXTREMELY unlikely that the (future) Emperor of Orlais could (by Fereldan law and custom) realistically become the king of Ferelden. So while king of Ferelden becoming a husband of the Empress would give her some ability to influence Ferelden (and an alliance sealed by marriage), I don't think it could really last long. Best case scenario would be having two children with one becoming the emperor of Orlais and the other - king of Ferelden... But that seems like a good way for them to each want the throne the other one has (in addition to their own, obviously) and we're back to the brink of war with some bonus Game...
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