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[ShadowLordXII]

I would not say he made the right choice about the Orlesians.

 

I was more talking about the marriage plan between Cailan and Celene. I would even say that his caution about holding back most or half of the chevaliers is justified given historical evidence as long as he let the Orlesian Wardens save his country from the darkspawn.

 

But Loghain's paranoia was so bad that he blocked the Orlesian Wardens and put a bounty on the head of any surviving Ferelden Wardens. Effectively handing Ferelden over to the darkspawn on a silver platter with many thousands of unfortunate women who'd be turned into broodmothers to enlarge the horde.

 

However, his caution about the marriage plan is justified as Celene later confirms that she planned for exactly what Loghain feared would happen. It still doesn't excuse blocking the Orlesian wardens or any of his other screw-ups.

[Eliastion]

But that's not an invasion or fereldin under outside control. That's called being an alliance. The thing is that the people of fereldin dislike Orlais is because they would invade their country. With that comes all the deaths, crimes of war, and stripping of rights. If Celene is wedded to the king of fereldin none of the thing that happens in an invasion would happen and Fereldin would control there country as they see fit... What's the issue?

Well, it was you who said that the civil war stopped the invasion, I never referred to Celene-Cailan marriage as invasion. Though I do think the alliance would in time (perhaps slowly but almost surely) deteriorate. Too much bad blood, too little things in common, too big power difference. Alliance where one partner is obviously stronger and the other one doesn't take well to being controlled is anything but stable.

[Caddius]

^This. Except for one thing. If the marrage with Cailen and Celene did happen all of Loghains fear of invasion would of ended.

I'm afraid I have to disagree.

Loghain would have seen the Orlesian Royal Forces coming with the Wardens as an occupying force, even if Cailan and Anora had just wed. There was public scandal when Eamon married Isolde because she was an Orlesian. It would be much worse if their king married an Empress and began to see Orlais as his country too. As Elastion noted, Ferelden is essentially a noble's republic. Power is decidedly not centralized. While kings have always been of the Theirin bloodline, the Bannorn can and will overthrow anyone they don't like. Orlesians are by far the most hated people. Orlesian troops in their country will always be seen as a huge threat. And again, Celene had plans to take over Ferelden. Admittedly through gentler means than her predecessors or even Gaspard.

Orlais is a centralized, absolute monarchy in the style of Louis XVI France, complete with the heavy influence of the Chantry/Church, and more abused than usual peasant population.

Generally speaking in a union, the more powerful kingdom gets the most benefit. The Kingdom of Ferelden is not in any danger from Nevarra or Tevinter. Orlais is, and would request aid from their ally in those wars. Historically, their threats have been each other, their cousins the Avvar and Chasind, and most of all, the Empire of Orlais. The only benefit Ferelden gets is protection from Orlesian invasion, which it gets in return for standing side-by-side with their arch-rivals. The Occupation is in living memory, and is a collective scar for Fereldans. I do not see any circumstance in which Ferelden would stand for a union with Orlais, however hard Cailan and the same type of collaborators present in the previous invasion pushed. It would be a civil war in which Orlais would win, for a time.

[iamlaughed]

I have played DA:O what feels like countless times.
For all my play throughs, regardless of whether it made sense for my warden or not,
 

I:
- Always said rude things to Loghain in Ostagar.
- Always told Loghains men outside Orzammar to inform Loghain I'm coming for him.
- Always did everything I could in Denerim to turn everyone against him.
- Always killed Ser Cauthrien.
- Always tried to turn his daughter against him.
- Always Killed him in front of everyone.
- Always gave his daughters throne to a bastard.
- Never cared about his reasons.

 

Why:
- Because feels.
- Because Duncan.
- Because Alistair.
- Because feels.
- Because *Isoldes voice* "I... don't... think..."

After reading this thread, I now feel like perhaps

i've made a huge mistake

[leaguer of one]

 

However, his caution about the marriage plan is justified as Celene later confirms that she planned for exactly what Loghain feared would happen. It still doesn't excuse blocking the Orlesian wardens or any of his other screw-ups.

No, it's not. His fear was Orlais invading. A marrage to make an alliance is not an invasions. No one would of lost their freedoms. The pnly one who would lose is his daughter.

[leaguer of one]

I'm afraid I have to disagree.

Loghain would have seen the Orlesian Royal Forces coming with the Wardens as an occupying force, even if Cailan and Anora had just wed. There was public scandal when Eamon married Isolde because she was an Orlesian. It would be much worse if their king married an Empress and began to see Orlais as his country too. As Elastion noted, Ferelden is essentially a noble's republic. Power is decidedly not centralized. While kings have always been of the Theirin bloodline, the Bannorn can and will overthrow anyone they don't like. Orlesians are by far the most hated people. Orlesian troops in their country will always be seen as a huge threat. And again, Celene had plans to take over Ferelden. Admittedly through gentler means than her predecessors or even Gaspard.

Orlais is a centralized, absolute monarchy in the style of Louis XVI France, complete with the heavy influence of the Chantry/Church, and more abused than usual peasant population.

Generally speaking in a union, the more powerful kingdom gets the most benefit. The Kingdom of Ferelden is not in any danger from Nevarra or Tevinter. Orlais is, and would request aid from their ally in those wars. Historically, their threats have been each other, their cousins the Avvar and Chasind, and most of all, the Empire of Orlais. The only benefit Ferelden gets is protection from Orlesian invasion, which it gets in return for standing side-by-side with their arch-rivals. The Occupation is in living memory, and is a collective scar for Fereldans. I do not see any circumstance in which Ferelden would stand for a union with Orlais, however hard Cailan and the same type of collaborators present in the previous invasion pushed. It would be a civil war in which Orlais would win, for a time.

What does it matter in how he sees it? What matter is if actual freedoms are lost. Celene has no interest in it. The worst of it would be some scufles among the solders. He can be a paranoid as he wants but the orlaisan army would be out once the blights is over.

[Monica21]

Dude, You think Gespard would not make a move to try to invade Fereldin if no Blight had happened? Please. Not even the breach stop his focus on trying to become Emperor. He was not going to stop. The peace with Fereldin is just an illusion as long as he's part of Orlais and things stayed as they are. The only thing stopping Orlais' invasion would be the civil war that was going to happen.

 

Since Gaspard wasn't a known quantity during Origins, I fail to see how he's relevant to a discussion of events in 9:30.

 

Peace was formalized in 9:13, I believe, when Celene became Empress. According to the wiki, at least. An official peace. So yes, like Monica says, Orlais and Ferelden were at peace. However, it wasn't a particularly stable peace. Gaspard and other Chevaliers and nobles did seem to want to conquer all of the territory Orlais had lost, including Ferelden.

Cailan's reference to making peace means sealing the deal rather than them both licking their wounds and preparing for the next invasion of Ferelden. As was common in medieval Europe, this alliance would be sealed by marriage. Cailan and Celene would produce a child that would be heir to both kingdoms, theoretically uniting them in interest, since both kingdoms would be the property of the other's royal family. Leon-Castile and Aragon pulled this off successfully, becoming Spain. However, a lot of these unions became quite messy, with one country rejecting the other, trying to become dominant, putting forward a powerful noble for the throne as a non-treacherous replacement. (Couslands would be perfect for that.)

For countries with as bitter a history as Ferelden and Orlais, and so recent, and two countries so different in culture and governing practices...

Cailan had an idealized vision of uniting the two countries and them both learning from each other. Celene wanted a secure border to the east, the reclaiming of an Orlesian territory, and more soldiers to ward off Tevinter and seize the territory Nevarra conquered during the Ferelden conflict.

As mentioned earlier, there is even precedent for Orlais sending soldiers into a country and using it as an excuse to annex the territory. Loghain was right to be paranoid about the Orlesian forces. While understandable, it was a much less astute call to outlaw the Grey Wardens and refuse them entry.

 

 

One could make an assumption that an heir would be produced, but since we still don't know why Cailan and Anora haven't produced a child, it's entirely possible that Cailan's the one shooting blanks. In addition, given Celene's history and with the Orlesian throne, my opinion is that it wouldn't be all that long after the marriage before Cailan dies an unfortunate but predictable death, giving Celene sole control of an even larger empire.

 

But that's not an invasion or fereldin under outside control. That's called being an alliance. The thing is that the people of fereldin dislike Orlais is because they would invade their country. With that comes all the deaths, crimes of war, and stripping of rights. If Celene is wedded to the king of fereldin none of the thing that happens in an invasion would happen and Fereldin would control there country as they see fit... What's the issue?

 

I think that you misunderstand the vast differences in how Ferelden and Orlais are ruled, and misunderstand Celene's goal. Celene wasn't looking for an alliance. She was looking to annex Ferelden.

 

I was more talking about the marriage plan between Cailan and Celene. I would even say that his caution about holding back most or half of the chevaliers is justified given historical evidence as long as he let the Orlesian Wardens save his country from the darkspawn.

 

But Loghain's paranoia was so bad that he blocked the Orlesian Wardens and put a bounty on the head of any surviving Ferelden Wardens. Effectively handing Ferelden over to the darkspawn on a silver platter with many thousands of unfortunate women who'd be turned into broodmothers to enlarge the horde.

 

However, his caution about the marriage plan is justified as Celene later confirms that she planned for exactly what Loghain feared would happen. It still doesn't excuse blocking the Orlesian wardens or any of his other screw-ups.

 

First, can we stop with the broodmother thing? It's an incredibly strange, and entirely too specific, argument to make. Second, Loghain's paranoia about the Wardens is as justified as his paranoia about the Chevaliers. Again, they almost got Maric killed and tried to turn humanity into blighted creatures, with the help of an ancient magister and an Orlesian First Enchanter in the Ferelden Circle. His fears about the potential of the Wardens lying to gain power are not unjustified. He was incorrect, but after 400 years I don't actually expect anyone to believe that the Wardens are anything more than a very impressive group of warriors.

[leaguer of one]

Since Gaspard wasn't a known quantity during Origins, I fail to see how he's relevant to a discussion of events in 9:30.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that you misunderstand the vast differences in how Ferelden and Orlais are ruled, and misunderstand Celene's goal. Celene wasn't looking for an alliance. She was looking to annex Ferelden.

 

 

 

1. He was not a know issue to us. But he was to the world of thedus. Thus he is still an issue.

2. Super wrong. She wanted to annex nothing. Masked Empire made that clear.(You clearly did not read the book.) She only wanted an alliance. Sorry but Her goal is just an alliance ageist Orlais real enemies.

[Monica21]

1. He was not a know issue to us. But he was to the world of thedus. Thus he is still an issue.

2. Super wrong. She wanted to annex nothing. Masked Empire made that clear.(You clearly did not read the book.) She only wanted an alliance. Sorry but Her goal is just an alliance ageist Orlais real enemies.

 

He is irrelevant in a discussion of 9:30 Ferelden/Orlesian politics.

 

I don't have TME in front of me (because I'm at work and my copy is at home), but the line is something like, "She tried to achieve through peace what Florian had failed to achieve through war." What had Florian failed to achieve? It sure as hell wasn't an alliance with Ferelden. You don't send legions of Chevaliers to a land you're trying to ally with. You don't send a ruler to live in Denerim, call him a King, tax their citizens, and give their land to Orlesian nobles. That is not an alliance. That is a takeover.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Im not big fan of Loghain but i agree with him on that

 

1.Calian was an idiot

2.Orlais wanted ferelden

 

To be honest im in fact glad to some extent that he screwd over cailan so orlais didn't take over ferelden. 

[Nelyafinwe]

I should have been more detailed when I first posted; in my game it says the province of Gwaren- Teryn Loghain's lands-- were the easiest That the darkspawn overran as there were no able bodied men left to fight; only the women, children and men to week to fight properly.

[Addai]

He is irrelevant in a discussion of 9:30 Ferelden/Orlesian politics.

 

I don't have TME in front of me (because I'm at work and my copy is at home), but the line is something like, "She tried to achieve through peace what Florian had failed to achieve through war." What had Florian failed to achieve? It sure as hell wasn't an alliance with Ferelden. You don't send legions of Chevaliers to a land you're trying to ally with. You don't send a ruler to live in Denerim, call him a King, tax their citizens, and give their land to Orlesian nobles. That is not an alliance. That is a takeover.

Here it is:

"And if marrying into Ferelden is no longer an option..."

 

"I fear it is not." Celene had once, in her younger years, hoped to do through marriage what Meghren and his apocryphal mabari had failed to do by force. With the strength of Ferelden behind it willingly, the Orlesian Empire would have had the power to drive back Nevarran aggression and even give Tevinter pause.

[Eliastion]

I should have been more detailed when I first posted; in my game it says the province of Gwaren- Teryn Loghain's lands-- were the easiest That the darkspawn overran as there were no able bodied men left to fight; only the women, children and men to week to fight properly.

It can be just a rumor, though - basically I don't think we get to hear about it from any reliable source and supposedly the Teyrnir got overrun by Darkspawn BUT most people got evacuated by sea... That sounds like total BS, you can't quickly evacuate such a city, much less the lands around it. Given location of Gwaren and the fact that we don't really encounter any darkspawn in Brecilen forest, I find it likely that in reality Gwaren never saw the darkspawn horde, some minor bands maybe but not the core of the true force of the Blight. The rumors we can hear during the game could be started by panicked refugees that actually did flee Gwaren (or through Gwaren) and, well "the South is lost to the Blight" and all that with Gwaren being relatively far South...

The fact is, however, that Gwaren - the city and lands around it - is pretty much cut off from the rest of the Ferelden by a (partially haunted) forest almost the size of Rivain. It's quite possible for the Archdemon to completely bypass Gwaren while making its way through the South and towards the Denerim. Not only that - didn't Hawke actually go through Gwaren (still standing and not full of Darkspawn) after finding himself cut-off behind the Darkspawn horde?

 

I don't say it's completely impossible that Gwaren actually did fall to the Blight at some point, but from what knowledge I have (very incomplete, admittedly) I believe that it never did - and what we heard was but a rumor born of fear and some misinterpreted, misunderstood and/or exaggerated tales of refugees.

Though if someone knows some reliable (or even unreliable but other than this one rumor) source claiming that Gwaren has fallen, I'll gladly hear that, I like to get to know things I missed  

[leaguer of one]

He is irrelevant in a discussion of 9:30 Ferelden/Orlesian politics.

 

I don't have TME in front of me (because I'm at work and my copy is at home), but the line is something like, "She tried to achieve through peace what Florian had failed to achieve through war." What had Florian failed to achieve? It sure as hell wasn't an alliance with Ferelden. You don't send legions of Chevaliers to a land you're trying to ally with. You don't send a ruler to live in Denerim, call him a King, tax their citizens, and give their land to Orlesian nobles. That is not an alliance. That is a takeover.

No, He's not irreverent being that he's been one of the biggest voices in the orliasen court since the mad emperor died.

 

And that line does not mean what you think it means. She means a stronger Orlias not control over fereldin. In the book she makes it a point she only wanted an alliance, not control.

[leaguer of one]

Here it is:

And that's my point. Nothing there says her go was control over Feredlin but to strengthen Orlais.

[ShadowLordXII]

First, can we stop with the broodmother thing? It's an incredibly strange, and entirely too specific, argument to make. Second, Loghain's paranoia about the Wardens is as justified as his paranoia about the Chevaliers. Again, they almost got Maric killed and tried to turn humanity into blighted creatures, with the help of an ancient magister and an Orlesian First Enchanter in the Ferelden Circle. His fears about the potential of the Wardens lying to gain power are not unjustified. He was incorrect, but after 400 years I don't actually expect anyone to believe that the Wardens are anything more than a very impressive group of warriors.

 

Why not? The creation of broodmothers is an inevitable consequence of women being captured, raped and corrupted by the darkspawn. By letting the South fall due to his paranoia and lack of priorities, the darkspawn have plenty of potential prisoners to use as they please. It happens regardless no doubt, but not in the numbers that Loghain's failures would allow. Hundreds of prisoners=at least dozens of broodmothers; 1 broodmother=thousands of darkspawn.

 

It's a symptom of Loghain's great inevitable failure to protect his kingdom.

 

1. That's a book-only episode and was never mentioned in-game. How would the player/character know about this episode from Origins itself? 2. Maric chose to join the wardens. 3. Didn't Maric tell Loghain the truth about that whole situation and that these wardens were being manipulated by a darkspawn magister? Or is Loghain too blind and close-minded to have heard Maric's explanation? 4. No Blight has ever been beaten without the Grey Wardens. That is a fact. Even if all the details of how that's possible isn't known (partially the warden's fault), that doesn't justify Loghain's attempts to brand the Wardens as enemies of Ferelden in a time when they're most needed nor to deny the Orlesian wardens passage into his country when they need it the most.

 

Another symptom of Loghain's great inevitable failure to protect his kingdom. His decisions were going to turn Ferelden into a wasteland, a gathering point for the Blight to spread (no guarantee that Orlais alone could hold off the Blight's spread at the borders) and a breeding spot to increase it's numbers.

[Addai]

And that's my point. Nothing there says her go was control over Feredlin but to strengthen Orlais.

... That's what happens when you annex countries. You get their stuff.

[Nelyafinwe]

[leaguer of one]

... That's what happens when you annex countries. You get their stuff.

Nothing in the line you posted showed any comment about annexing any thing.  Your warping what Celene means.

[phaonica]

Nothing in the line you posted showed any comment about annexing any thing.  Your warping what Celene means.

Celene wanted to use Ferelden to attack Nevarra and Tevinter. It had nothing to do with peace with any of those nations.

[SerBlacky]

Monica21, on 23 Feb 2015 - 3:50 PM, said:

He is irrelevant in a discussion of 9:30 Ferelden/Orlesian politics.

 

I don't have TME in front of me (because I'm at work and my copy is at home), but the line is something like, "She tried to achieve through peace what Florian had failed to achieve through war." What had Florian failed to achieve? It sure as hell wasn't an alliance with Ferelden. You don't send legions of Chevaliers to a land you're trying to ally with. You don't send a ruler to live in Denerim, call him a King, tax their citizens, and give their land to Orlesian nobles. That is not an alliance. That is a takeover.

Here it is:

Quote

"And if marrying into Ferelden is no longer an option..."

 

"I fear it is not." Celene had once, in her younger years, hoped to do through marriage what Meghren and his apocryphal mabari had failed to do by force. With the strength of Ferelden behind it willingly, the Orlesian Empire would have had the power to drive back Nevarran aggression and even give Tevinter pause.

 

That's the quote but it misses some parts:

 

"Celene had once in her youger years, hoped to do though marriage what Meghren and his apocryphal mabari had failed to do by force had failed to do by force. With the strength of Ferelden behind it willingly, the Orlesian Empire would have had the power to drive back Nevarran aggression and even give Tevinter pause. Unfortunaltely Cailan has already been married at the time. Given how much blood had been shed to put a new king on Ferelden's throne (referring to Maric) -and how much Ferelden still had to rebuild after the most recent Blight-any perceived manipulation from Orlais would be taken as another attack."

 

Implying she ditched the idea at the time of Origins. I think the correspondance with Cailan shows that she was still trying to push Orlais advantage through Ferelden, but marriage wasn't really an option anymore.

[Monica21]

Why not? The creation of broodmothers is an inevitable consequence of women being captured, raped and corrupted by the darkspawn. By letting the South fall due to his paranoia and lack of priorities, the darkspawn have plenty of potential prisoners to use as they please. It happens regardless no doubt, but not in the numbers that Loghain's failures would allow. Hundreds of prisoners=at least dozens of broodmothers; 1 broodmother=thousands of darkspawn.

 

Because I think you're overstating the supposed rampant broodmother problem. You come across exactly one broodmother as a Warden, and that's during a Blight. And that broodmother wasn't even created by darkspawn. The possibility of being turned into a broodmother is rather terrifying, sure, but the thought of humanity being wiped out in favor of ghouls and hurlocks is far worse.

[Monica21]

Implying she ditched the idea at the time of Origins. I think the correspondance with Cailan shows that she was still trying to push Orlais advantage through Ferelden, but marriage wasn't really an option anymore.

 

I don't this to be true because of Eamon's letter to Cailan's, and Celene's mention of a "permanent alliance."

 

Your Majesty,

 

My men will arrive as soon as possible to bolster your forces. Maker willing, this Blight will be ended before it has begun.

 

Cailan, I beseech you, as your uncle, not to join the Grey Wardens on the Field. You cannot afford to take this risk. Ferelden cannot afford it. Let me remind you again that you do not have an heir. Your death--and it pains me even to think of it--would plunge Ferelden into chaos.

 

And yes, perhaps when this is over you will allow me to bring up the subject of your heir. While a son from both the Theirin and Mac Tir lines would unite Ferelden like no other, we must accept that perhaps this can never be. The queen approaches her thirtieth year and her ability to give you a child lessens with each passing month. I submit to you again that it might be time to put Anora aside. We parted harshly the last time I spoke of this, but it has been a full year since then and nothing has changed.

 

Please, nephew, consider my words, and Andraste's grace be with you.

 

-- "A letter from Arl Eamon to King Cailan"

{emphasis mine}

 

Cailan,

 

The visit to Ferelden will be postponed indefinitely, due to the darkspawn problem. You understand, of course? The darkspawn have odd timing, don't they? Let us deal with them first. Once that is done we can further discuss a permanent alliance between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

-- "A note written in an uncharacteristically familiar tone from Empress Celene to King Cailan"

{emphasis mine}

[leaguer of one]

Celene wanted to use Ferelden to attack Nevarra and Tevinter. It had nothing to do with peace with any of those nations.

I never said she didn't want to do so for those reasons. The was my point. The issue is that she not doing this as an invasion or to take control over fereldin. She just wants to stop any needless wars to focus on real conflict to Orlias. Too many nobles want to invade fereldin again and she see this a needless war being there more really antagonist to Orlias. A marrage would end any want of the orlian nobles want of invading fereldin.