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[leaguer of one]

 

I don't this to be true because of Eamon's letter to Cailan's, and Celene's mention of a "permanent alliance."

 

 

 

{emphasis mine}

 

 

 

{emphasis mine}

 

Regardless this is still not a take over or an invasion. It would just be an alliance.

[Monica21]

Regardless this is still not a take over or an invasion. It would just be an alliance.

 

This is really not a difficult concept. "What Meghren couldn't achieve during war" was not an alliance. Words. They are right there.

[Cecilia]

As someone with no allegiance to either country and consequently no reason to disapprove of Ferelden being re-annexed by Orlais, I ship Cailan and Celene and am impossibly curious to see how that marriage would have worked out for him because I think it would have been hilarious~ (plus think of the lovely heraldry etc. C&C make such nice interlocking initials) 

[SerBlacky]

 

I don't this to be true because of Eamon's letter to Cailan's, and Celene's mention of a "permanent alliance."

 

 

 

{emphasis mine}

 

 

 

{emphasis mine}

 

But it still not really clear. You have here the wishes of Eamon in the "putting Anora aside".

"A permanent alliance" in any form would of course benefit Orlais but that does not mean it would take the form of a marriage. Gaider said that RTO letters were a call back to cut content in which Celene was visiting Denerim because Cailan and her would have plan on marrying, but it was cut (and in the actual game Cailan dies at Otsagar) and it kind of contradicts Celene's musing in Masked Empire "But Cailan was already married at the time". I mean how do you explain that?

[leaguer of one]

This is really not a difficult concept. "What Meghren couldn't achieve during war" was not an alliance. Words. They are right there.

Then you need to look more at what he wanted to achieve...and it was not to take over feredlin. It was to expand the influence and power of orlias. He wanted to do it via force and control. Celene, not so much. Your warping what she mean in that statement.

[Monica21]

But it still not really clear. You have here the wishes of Eamon in the "putting Anora aside".

"A permanent alliance" in any form would of course benefit Orlais but that does not mean it would take the form of a marriage. Gaider said that RTO letters were a call back to cut content in which Celene was visiting Denerim because Cailan and her would have plan on marrying, but it was cut (and in the actual game Cailan dies at Otsagar) and it kind of contradicts Celene's musing in Masked Empire "But Cailan was already married at the time". I mean how do you explain that?

 

Unclear enough for us to respectfully disagree then. But, I'm not sure what kind of alliance that isn't marriage could be considered permanent.

[SerBlacky]

Unclear enough for us to respectfully disagree then. But, I'm not sure what kind of alliance that isn't marriage could be considered permanent.

I don't have a definitive opinion on this TBH.

 

I'm just curious how you would explain this words: "Unfortunaltely Cailan has already been married at the time. Given how much blood had been shed to put a new king on Ferelden's throne (referring to Maric) -and how much Ferelden still had to rebuild after the most recent Blight-any perceived manipulation from Orlais would be taken as another attack."

 

So yeah, she entertained the idea (and Cailan too, longer than she did apparently), but kinda ditched it. And I think deep down Celene doesn't want to be married to anyone. Plus making many people believe she would accept their suit is part of how she became Empress and she also uses it a little to  maintain her own power (as showed in TME and where it kinda backlashes on her).

[Addai]

Nothing in the line you posted showed any comment about annexing any thing.  Your warping what Celene means.

Let's analyze the sentence. She wanted to accomplish what Meghren and his mabari were there to do. What were they there to do?

.... pause for you to fill in the blank


.... That's what Celene wants to accomplish.


Yes, she wants to occupy Ferelden in a more benevolent fashion, and make sure the frog doesn't jump out of the pot, at least before it's gotten used to Orlesian perfume and stinky cheese. But there's no way on the Maker's green earth that a marriage to Cailan was about Ferelden's long-term benefit. Not unless you already see the goal of Orlesian expansionism as a positive thing. The Fereldans, who are all about their independence and traditions, don't. I'm pretty sure Cailan's scheme would have resulted in civil war, but there we get into speculative territory.

[Monica21]

I don't have a definitive opinion on this TBH.

 

I'm just curious how you would explain this words: "Unfortunaltely Cailan has already been married at the time. Given how much blood had been shed to put a new king on Ferelden's throne (referring to Maric) -and how much Ferelden still had to rebuild after the most recent Blight-any perceived manipulation from Orlais would be taken as another attack."

 

So yeah, she entertained the idea (and Cailan too, longer than she did apparently), but kinda ditched it. And I think deep down Celene doesn't want to be married to anyone. Plus making many people believe she would accept their suit is part of how she became Empress and she also uses it a little to  maintain her own power (as showed in TME and where it kinda backlashes on her).

 

I don't have a good answer, honestly. At best I can surmise that she understood the difficulty of Cailan divorcing Anora for an Orlesian Empress. At worst, the two statements appear contradictory by virtue of having different writers years apart. There really isn't a good way to reconcile the two.

[leaguer of one]

Let's analyze the sentence. She wanted to accomplish what Meghren and his mabari were there to do. What were they there to do?

.... pause for you to fill in the blank


.... That's what Celene wants to accomplish.


Yes, she wants to occupy Ferelden in a more benevolent fashion, and make sure the frog doesn't jump out of the pot, at least before it's gotten used to Orlesian perfume and stinky cheese. But there's no way on the Maker's green earth that a marriage to Cailan was about Ferelden's long-term benefit. Not unless you already see the goal of Orlesian expansionism as a positive thing. The Fereldans, who are all about their independence and traditions, don't. I'm pretty sure Cailan's scheme would have resulted in civil war, but there we get into speculative territory.

1. First of all. Meghren was exiled there.

2.Orlias already occupy Ferelden at that time so that's not it.

3. His goal was to get back to the Favor to the current times emperor.

4. The only reason ferelden was invaded was to expand Orlian power and influence.

 

Sorry, but your twisting her words meaning.

[Addai]

1. First of all. Meghren was exiled there.
2.Orlias already occupy Ferelden at that time so that's not it.
3. His goal was to get back to the Favor to the current times emperor.
4. The only reason ferelden was invaded was to expand Orlian power and influence.
 
Sorry, but your twisting her words meaning.

He wasn't exiled, he was sent to occupy them. Or do you suppose he got all that chevalier support for being a failed noble?

[The Hierophant]

Let's analyze the sentence. She wanted to accomplish what Meghren and his mabari were there to do. What were they there to do?

.... pause for you to fill in the blank


.... That's what Celene wants to accomplish.


Yes, she wants to occupy Ferelden in a more benevolent fashion, and make sure the frog doesn't jump out of the pot, at least before it's gotten used to Orlesian perfume and stinky cheese. But there's no way on the Maker's green earth that a marriage to Cailan was about Ferelden's long-term benefit. Not unless you already see the goal of Orlesian expansionism as a positive thing. The Fereldans, who are all about their independence and traditions, don't. I'm pretty sure Cailan's scheme would have resulted in civil war, but there we get into speculative territory.

If they did marry it wouldn't be surprising for him to be killed in a hunting accident. It's the number one killer of Orlesian nobles.

[Monica21]

I'm pretty sure Cailan's scheme would have resulted in civil war, but there we get into speculative territory.

Yes, I'm in agreement with you here. I mean, it's one thing to marry an up-jumped noble, but at least Anora's a good Ferelden girl. "Putting her aside" to marry an Empress? That's a whole lotta nope.

[DontWakeTheBear]

 

He wasn't exiled, he was sent to occupy them. Or do you suppose he got all that chevalier support for being a failed noble?

According to anybody who talked about it (especially in Stolen Throne), his being sent there was a "promotion" that kicked him out of Orlais. It's hardly unheard of for unfavored high ranking nobles to be "promoted" off to undesirable places so they're out of public view. Everything he did was to end the rebellion quickly so he could get out of "this backwater dog lord country and back into civilization". Meghren wasn't there to conquer Ferelden, that had been done over 30 years before he got there.What Meghren was "trying" to do was keep Fereldan under control and paying tribute to Orlais, All his advisers recommened him marrying a Fereldan woman to solidify his position and win loyalty, the dude was just too much of a jerk to make any kind of concessions. Celene, who is all about compromise, knew that she could gain the resources and support of Fereldan with a marriage, while attempting conquest would only complicate things.

Yes, I'm in agreement with you here. I mean, it's one thing to marry an up-jumped noble, but at least Anora's a good Ferelden girl. "Putting her aside" to marry an Empress? That's a whole lotta nope.

He'd have had people for it and against it, same as when he married the upstart noble's daughter. Sure Celene's Oresian, but at least she's royalty, while Anora comes from a line of farmers is one argument. While the other is sure Anora doesn't have the fancy lineage, but at least she's Fereldan. The Bann's would argue back and forth, but it would probably come down to the three big names: The two Teryns and the Arl of Redcliffe. Those are the three guys with the biggest influence. We know how Logain would feel and we know how Eamon would feel, so it would really land on where Cousland cast his influence.

[leaguer of one]

He wasn't exiled, he was sent to occupy them. Or do you suppose he got all that chevalier support for being a failed noble?

Someone needs to read Stolen Throne. He was exiled there.

[Monica21]

He'd have had people for it and against it, same as when he married the upstart noble's daughter. Sure Celene's Oresian, but at least she's royalty, while Anora comes from a line of farmers is one argument. While the other is sure Anora doesn't have the fancy lineage, but at least she's Fereldan. The Bann's would argue back and forth, but it would probably come down to the three big names: The two Teryns and the Arl of Redcliffe. Those are the three guys with the biggest influence. We know how Logain would feel and we know how Eamon would feel, so it would really land on where Cousland cast his influence.

 

I can actually pretty easily see Bryce coming down on the side of Cailan. That said, if Bryce did do that, it wouldn't prevent a civil war. Loghain's hardly the type to go back to Gwaren with his tail between his legs after his idiot king humiliates his daughter and marries and Orlesian.

[ShadowLordXII]

Because I think you're overstating the supposed rampant broodmother problem. You come across exactly one broodmother as a Warden, and that's during a Blight. And that broodmother wasn't even created by darkspawn. The possibility of being turned into a broodmother is rather terrifying, sure, but the thought of humanity being wiped out in favor of ghouls and hurlocks is far worse.

 

Rampant problem? I'm just pointing out a reality that can and has happened. A reality that is more likely due to Loghain's incompetence when dealing with the Blight. The fact that we only see one broodmother doesn't mean that there aren't others. Or how else do we explain the endless and constantly replenishing numbers of the darkspawn?

 

Nani? How else did that poor dwarf woman get turned into a broodmother? Branka allowed her to be captured and corrupted, true. But don't mince facts, the darkspawn were the ones who did that to her.

 

What? Of course humanity being wiped out is bad. But again...one broodmother=thousands of born darkspawn; Fallen/Abandoned South=many females who could be captured and corrupted. This doesn't bode well for Ferelden or humanity's chances, do they?

[Eliastion]

(...)
He'd have had people for it and against it, same as when he married the upstart noble's daughter. Sure Celene's Oresian, but at least she's royalty, while Anora comes from a line of farmers is one argument. While the other is sure Anora doesn't have the fancy lineage, but at least she's Fereldan. The Bann's would argue back and forth, but it would probably come down to the three big names: The two Teryns and the Arl of Redcliffe. Those are the three guys with the biggest influence. We know how Logain would feel and we know how Eamon would feel, so it would really land on where Cousland cast his influence.

I don't really want to get drawn too deep into this argument, but I wanted to add one detail - Ferelden has much less elevated idea of nobility than Orlais (and to what we're accustomed when we think of peasants and nobles) and vertical mobility is relatively high - while Loghain going from peasant to Teyrn made some people unhappy, being knighted for military service is relatively common place in Ferelden and noble status is very closely related to actually being a professional soldier. Also one needs to remember that Ferelden lost a lot of its old nobility to Orlesian invasion, under occupation, during rebellion and - finally - in executions of traitors after the war had been won. Big portion of Fereldan nobility can't really see Mac Tirs as upstarts because many noble families are nobility about as long as Mac Tirs, really.
I do believe that "at least this new wife is royalty" wouldn't be a strong argument in Ferelden, really, even among the eldest families. Loyalty to Theirin bloodline would likely play much bigger part. So it would be "He is our king, the last of the Theirins" and "Anora didn't give him offspring" vs "He's selling Ferelden to Orlais like he betrays his Fereldan wife for Orlesian b*tch".

[Monica21]

Rampant problem? I'm just pointing out a reality that can and has happened. A reality that is more likely due to Loghain's incompetence when dealing with the Blight. The fact that we only see one broodmother doesn't mean that there aren't others. Or how else do we explain the endless and constantly replenishing numbers of the darkspawn?

Nani? How else did that poor dwarf woman get turned into a broodmother? Branka allowed her to be captured and corrupted, true. But don't mince facts, the darkspawn were the ones who did that to her.

What? Of course humanity being wiped out is bad. But again...one broodmother=thousands of born darkspawn; Fallen/Abandoned South=many females who could be captured and corrupted. This doesn't bode well for Ferelden or humanity's chances, do they?

Is this really your anti-Loghain argument? Broodmothers?

[berelinde]

I wouldn't expect a lot of content for Loghain at this point. He had his big scene 2 games ago. I mean yeah, I love him as a character and I never tire of hearing Simon Templeman... but the chances of him surviving two games' attempts to kill him are a bit too remote to invest any expectation in a cameo for something that really only matters in a situation that happened 2 years ago, too. The Blight is over. Yeah, there could be another Blight, and depending on where and when, it might be devastating for those Inquisitors who opted to banish the Wardens, but as far as we know, the storyline has moved on. 

 

Not that I'd complain if he made a reappearance! As I said, I love his character, and I sincerely wish there was a way to keep both him *and* Alistair happy. But I've got a feeling it ain't gonna happen.

[ShadowLordXII]

Is this really your anti-Loghain argument? Broodmothers?

 

What.

 

I was responding to your response.

 

My full argument is listed a few pages earlier. For the record, I'm not even "Anti-Loghain", I think that he's a great character. I'm simply not going to give him pass for all of his clear mistakes, bad decisions and inherent betrayals to his country that were all going to destroy it if Loghain wasn't removed from power.

 

The broodmother thing is honestly a smaller part of my overall argument on how Loghain's incitement of the Civil War and subsequent actions were only going to help the darkspawn conquer Ferelden and make it into a staging ground. I also brought it up because it was part of the OP and I wanted to stay on topic instead contributing to the inevitable circular Loghain bad/Loghain good discussion that took over. Of course, I failed.

[Caddius]

Someone needs to read Stolen Throne. He was exiled there.

We have read The Stolen Throne.  Exiled from the Emperor's good graces, not exiled in the fashion of Briala. Not actual exile. He had done something to upset Emperor Florian, so Florian handed him a position that had a distinct lack of parties, and an overabundance of angry Fereldans trying to kill him. It's extremely common, as DontWakeTheBear has pointed out, for people to get a 'promotion' as a way of getting them out of the ruler's hair without losing face. How many CKII players have sent their conniving second sons on Crusades, or appointed that one Duke who seduced your wife that one time as the ruler of a county brimming with heretics and plague?   He may not be allowed back across the border, but I fail 

 

The Rebellion was going on for the duration of the Occupation. Orlais held Denerim and the loyalty of many collaborators. Many Banns remained loyal to King Brandel, or were discontent with both sides.

When King Brandel Theirin died, Emperor Florian took the opportunity to crown dear cousin Meghren as King of Ferelden, to turn Ferelden into a productive client of Orlais. This was to add legitimacy to the Orlesian Occupation, and help its integration into the greater whole of the Empire. Similar processes have happened throughout our own history. After a long enough time, the Fereldans would see themselves as part of the Empire, even if they were a backwater province.  A thankless job, and one Meghren was unsuited for. The Valmont dynasty seems to be rather incompetent during the Exalted Age, losing ground to Nevarra, sinking a great deal of resources into the failed project of Ferelden, and Mad Emperor Reville slaughtering children and hiding in his room. 

Meanwhile, Queen Moira continued to lead the rebels as a government-in-exile. Part of Orlais' goal was to make the people see them as the Rebels, and not the Resistance. They failed.

In short, Meghren was there for Orlais, overseeing its most disgruntled province. He was to add its power to Orlais, as all provinces are meant to do. Celene seems to be mulling over her earlier plans for getting Ferelden on her side, as a junior partner in a union and possible peaceful integration, rather than outright conquest and vassalage. To again use the CKII comparison, Celene is the Empress, Cailan is the King of an allied kingdom. Their children would have inherited both the empire and the kingdom, and would likely hand off the kingdom title to a competent cousin to serve under them, or rule it themselves, but largely as a province of Orlais nonetheless.

 

Basically, marriage is a way of exerting control in a passive-aggressive manner, rather than a 'Chevaliers in ur base, killin ur doodz' fashion.

 

To go into the actual Loghain discussion, most of the points have already been brought up. For all of his mistakes, pulling back from the south after the retreat from Ostagar doesn't seem like a terrible idea to me. The darkspawn burst past the choke point of Ostagar, but they're in relatively unoccupied territory. Pull back to the Bannorn and Denerim, and consolidate forces. 

Then again, as I believe Flemeth notes, one of Loghain's mistakes is seeing the darkspawn as a enemy he can outmaneuver. He treats them like Orlesian armies or Avvar hordes, not the force of nature that they are.

 

He doesn't know about broodmothers, and it wouldn't make any difference. There are Codex entries by Shapers in the Deep Roads that imply that the Blights begin when the darkspawn numbers begin to swell to a breaking point. This could be the Archdemon building his forces before launching the surface invasion, or it could just be that when there's more darkspawn, the digging for Old Gods goes faster.

The raiding parties on the surface, common in the Anderfels and Tevinter, are likely to kidnap more women to become broodmothers and keep the darkspawn race growing. Under the coordination of a Blight, they would use the Deep Roads to raid villages all over and seize as many as possible. There is very little any man or government can do to prevent the darkspawn from getting broodmothers.

...I apologize for the wall of text.  I meant for this to be a paragraph.

[Nelyafinwe]

I wonder if Loghain would have left Anora in Gwaren if she had been home visiting while Cailan was at Ostagar.

[dragonflight288]

I wonder if Loghain would have left Anora in Gwaren if she had been home visiting while Cailan was at Ostagar.

 

Unlikely. He specifically tells a warden who asks that Anora was his daughter and the Queen. He would let her rule since he had no aspirations to. He simply wanted to get through the darkspawn crises and seriously saw Orlais as a threat. His post as regent was meant to be temporary until Ferelden was safe. 

 

And Gwaren is pretty close to the Blight so leaving her at home would actually be counterproductive to keeping her safe. 

[Addai]

Someone needs to read Stolen Throne. He was exiled there.

Read it, thank you. He wasn't sent to Ferelden as a reward, this is obvious, but he was sent there to subdue and occupy it. Orlais didn't undertake an 80-year occupation because Meghren was naughty.

And again, the quote is that Celene meant to do by marriage what Meghren failed to do. Which was to subdue and occupy Ferelden.