270 réponses à ce sujet

[Qunquistador]

I was thinking about this a few days ago actually. Wondering why Bioware doesn't make the elves more Asian looking, with slanted eyes, etc, to distinguish them more from humans. Idk, it was just a random thought...

Cuz as we all know there isn't much to distinguish elves from humans, and when Bioware tried in da2, it was a fail.

Anyway, I don't really have much to say on the topic, just wanted to let you know I agree that there should be more Asian representation in dragon age. Like Vivienne for instance. It didn't make sense for her to be black. People are dark skinned because of the place they grow up in (hot climate produce dark skin), but Vivienne says she comes from the Free Marches, which looks fairly "normal" climate. While Zevran, Isabella, and Josephine who have dark skin come from Antiva/Rivain, which has been described as being more "tropical" in climate, so it makes sense for them. I liked seeing Vivienne because I am also a black woman, but I also felt like they just put her there to try to pander to black people, although her dark skin, given her origins, doesn't make sense. 

Basically I'm all for more diversity, as long as it gets explained and justified. Not just shoehorned in.

There are a few reasons why this comment is off base, but I'll stick with one. Vivienne's parents are Rivaini, which is to the Northeast of Antiva. They immigrated to the Free Marches and had Vivienne, who is still ethnically Rivaini just like Isabela is ethnically Rivaini. Vivienne has blue eyes and Isabela has brown, but they both have dark complexions, which is why Cassandra pegs her parents as being from Rivain. That's consistency, not shoehorning.

 

The Free Marches is home to people who immigrate from all regions looking for a fresh start, so it stands to reason that the population is diverse. Adaar, the Qunari quiz, is also from the Free Marches, but their Tal-Vashoth parents probably immigrated from Seheron or even Kont-aar to escape the Qun. Again this is consistency.

 

The fact that a mage, any mage regardless of ethnic background, was taken from their parents as a young child and made it to the imperial court of Orlais, where they learned to play the game is pretty extraordinary. But when you add the fact that she stands out in said court of super judgmental people as a dark-skinned woman from a foreign land? And you can see why Vivienne is as fierce as she is.

 

 

It's pretty sad when anyone, let alone PoC, can see perfectly well thought out attempts to include diverse looking and well written characters as pandering. It's like, are we all so brainwashed into seeing the default of humanity as white that we would question the few instances in popular Western media when it isn't?

 

Also, Josephine is a dark-skinned Antivan, but she says her family (most likely her paternal side) has roots in Orlais, where most of the folks look pretty pasty. This would account for her French sounding last name. Yet she also spent a good deal of her youth in Orlais for school. So the notion that people from one region must only look a certain way, when there's clearly a bit of migration going on in Thedas, is ridiculous.

 

As the game moves further North and the devs get better acquainted with the new engine, I'm guessing we'll see more diversity in terms of the looks of characters. I think that's awesome. What's not so awesome is the fact that Bioware will probably get a lot of whinging and complaints that they're pandering simply by broadening the players' scope of the world they created.

[Karolis]

They have a Tevinter look going on. So far from what I have seen of Tevinter, it is a combination of Latin, Greek and Indian culture, people and look. 

 

I mean, Dorian is a Greek name. The Tevinter language has Latin influence. Dorian's voice actor is Indian. Dorian's speech pattern is English. Dorian's skin color is swarthy but we have seen other Tevinters with other types of skin color. 

 

Its not just one specific culture. 

 

At one point I tried to map out the linguistic history of human Thedas, assuming (for the hell of it) that the early human arrivals were proto-Indo-Euro speakers coming from the north. It works out pretty well, for the most part -- I decided that the Indic branch went east into Rivain, while the Euro tree went south. Add a few migratory patterns, like coastal Welsh-speaking Free Marchers running a shipping route up to Rivain (otherwise, wtf is with "Llomeryn") and it all falls into place. 

 

[Side note: so what does Rivain end up with for a language? Postulating that everybody speaks IE is kind of a crappy thing to do. So..waves of migration? Elven-based isolates? Ancient grumpy surface dwarves speaking, I dunno, Akkadian?]

 

I...had a point somewhere. Oh right! Tevinter did colonize Rivain, I think for quite a while, until Rivain decided HELL NO and made them GTFO. But as a colonizing empire, you'd expect Tevinter to have lotsa people descended from its colonies. So Dorian & Fenris & Alexius & Erimond are all plausible. (Or, is that justified? I'm no historian, just drawing on vague real world knowledge.)

 

 

Nah, I do not wish to see this thread end or locked but the reality is that Asians as a people are extremely diverse. We come with almost all types of physical features, a myriad of languages, a ton of culture and so on. 

 

I am a Southeast Asian Historian and let me tell you that even in a tiny region like Southeast Asia, there are a lot of different people that look very different, have very different ancestral roots, have varying cultures...& yet they are all Asians and specifically in this case, Southeast Asians.

 

This is just due to the geographic reality of Asia. For one it is the largest continent. Two, it has islands, mainlands, archipelagos,etc which then contribute to the diversity. Three, they are not unified in the same way Europeans are. In fact, many Asians would consider themselves Indian first or Chinese first or Malay first or Japanese first or Aboriginal first and then Asian second. The funny thing is Thedas is a singular continent, which is very much like Europe and as such, to expect this level of diversity from one single pangea-style continent is just weird. 

 

That is one of the reasons why coalitions such as ASEAN is relatively modern. However, we as a people do mingle and mix around just fine, we just do not need the state or the authority to do it or to tell us to do it. 

 

Someone in a previous reply mentioned the Khmer Empire. I studied them and they are remarkable. The ancient Khmer people, now modern day Cambodia, were a race / collective of great builders and expansionists. At their height, during the Angkor period, they were extremely sophisticated, on par if not surpassing civilizations like Aztec and Mayan. The culture is a Indianized culture meaning it is a composite culture of Indian elements and local Khmer elements. They were an agrarian civilization, mainly due to the Tonle Sap and the barays they built. Their ruling system was known as Devaraja or absolute monarch. The fiction equivalent of this is the common Dwarven trope of King under the Mountain, except in this case its King of the Cosmos. Because of this, the empire's success hinged on the king since he has total control. He screws up, its all comes crashing down and if he is brilliant, the empire flourishes. & that is what happened (bad god-kings) which allowed the Sukhotai, now the modern day Thai people to defeat them. 

 

That's just one Asian culture, or rather one Asian culture that is now dead. 
 

If there is to be commonality between Asian people regardless of culture and physical features, it is that throughout most of history, they have always been ruled by single powerful rulers with lots of control and authority, regardless of sex. The second commonality is the massive inter-trade that happens between Asians. The sea route from India to Southeast Asia to China and then to Ryuku was once an extremely lucrative trading hub of practically everything. One thing to note is that trading during is period, often referred to as the Golden Age (3rd-15th century) was a laissez faire trade, not monopoly and not mercantilism. Funnily enough, despite the singular authority, Asians tend to manage their daily lives on their own and mix with other just fine without any need from the state to force them to do so and they mingle with each other just fine. 

 

One poster here mentioned that most developers stick with the medieval Europe theme. That is true but here's the thing :- We Asians know our medieval history quite well. Its mainly laissez faire, absolute monarchism, assimilative or composite culture, the usual war between ruling classes in a region, big empires that come once a while. So when we see something like medieval Europe, we are intrigued and would rather want that in the same way Westerners look at this part of the world and go:- "Gee that is so different from ours, I like it."

 

Allowing for the devs' handwaving, humans aren't native to the continent, but arrived from [insert mysterious place] about 4000 years ago. So I suppose (handwavily) that they could've had plenty of time and space to differentiate back on the home continent.

 

[Fair warning, this part is only tangentially on topic: if we're going to look at the interface of history and fantasy worlds: why are the technologically medieval periods so popular? Tolkein? Familiarity? Proof that people will buy it?

 

Why aren't more fantasy worlds based on the Khmer Empire, or ancient Egypt, or the Maya? Or, hell, made up entirely?]

[o Ventus]

 

Why aren't more fantasy worlds based on the Khmer Empire, or ancient Egypt, or the Maya? Or, hell, made up entirely?]

Because many fantasy series do already feature those, just not as the basis for the entire setting. A group of people who are strongly reminiscent of those people perhaps.

[ThreeF]

Why aren't more fantasy worlds based on the Khmer Empire, or ancient Egypt, or the Maya? Or, hell, made up entirely?]

There are many, off top of my head:

 

Dune (Bedouins)

Conan the Barbarian (vast range of various nations)

The Wheel of Time (vast range of various nations)

Under Heaven (China)

The Sarantine Mosaic (Byzantium)

Joust (Egypt)

Godspeaker Trilogy (Sumerians)

Codex Alera (Roman Empire)

Children of the Desert (Middle East)

The Stone Dance of the Chameleon (Inca/prehistoric)

[Kaibe]

There are a few reasons why this comment is off base, but I'll stick with one. Vivienne's parents are Rivaini, which is to the Northeast of Antiva. They immigrated to the Free Marches and had Vivienne, who is still ethnically Rivaini just like Isabela is ethnically Rivaini. Vivienne has blue eyes and Isabela has brown, but they both have dark complexions, which is why Cassandra pegs her parents as being from Rivain. That's consistency, not shoehorning.

The Free Marches is home to people who immigrate from all regions looking for a fresh start, so it stands to reason that the population is diverse. Adaar, the Qunari quiz, is also from the Free Marches, but their Tal-Vashoth parents probably immigrated from Seheron or even Kont-aar to escape the Qun. Again this is consistency.

The fact that a mage, any mage regardless of ethnic background, was taken from their parents as a young child and made it to the imperial court of Orlais, where they learned to play the game is pretty extraordinary. But when you add the fact that she stands out in said court of super judgmental people as a dark-skinned woman from a foreign land? And you can see why Vivienne is as fierce as she is.


It's pretty sad when anyone, let alone PoC, can see perfectly well thought out attempts to include diverse looking and well written characters as pandering. It's like, are we all so brainwashed into seeing the default of humanity as white that we would question the few instances in popular Western media when it isn't?

Also, Josephine is a dark-skinned Antivan, but she says her family (most likely her paternal side) has roots in Orlais, where most of the folks look pretty pasty. This would account for her French sounding last name. Yet she also spent a good deal of her youth in Orlais for school. So the notion that people from one region must only look a certain way, when there's clearly a bit of migration going on in Thedas, is ridiculous.

As the game moves further North and the devs get better acquainted with the new engine, I'm guessing we'll see more diversity in terms of the looks of characters. I think that's awesome. What's not so awesome is the fact that Bioware will probably get a lot of whinging and complaints that they're pandering simply by broadening the players' scope of the world they created.

This is just nitpicking, but Vivienne's eyes are brown. There was an eye color glitch where Leliana's eyes were brown, Culken and Vivienne's were blue.

[Qunquistador]

This is just nitpicking, but Vivienne's eyes are brown. There was an eye color glitch where Leliana's eyes were brown, Culken and Vivienne's were blue.

I was wondering why her eyes were brown in google images but blue in my game. So it's a glitch across the board that BW left alone like "**** it" or is it a random bug? Her eyes were blue my entire PT 

[Sarielle]

Huh. Her eyes are a blue/grey in mine too, and I have no eye mods or anything. Leli and Cullen's are the right colour, though.

[Nethalf]

Why aren't more fantasy worlds based on the Khmer Empire, or ancient Egypt, or the Maya? Or, hell, made up entirely?]

Because we don't know much bout ancient Khmers, or Maya, or ancient Egypt. Not as much as we know about Europe, of course.

 

Another problem is political correctness. Modern Western culture tends to portray other cultures as good as it can. For instance, if they show Native Americans culture, they NEVER show how NA tortured their enemies, or slaughtered each other, or how some tribes practiced cannibalism. In Hollywood movies Native Americans, like, 90% of time just say something really, really deep. And look a way wiser than those stupid Westerners.

 

But no one, ever, would play a game where's everything is good with dominant culture.

 

And they can't show us muslim culture 'cause lots of muslims just don't have sense of humour.

But they can show western culture 'cause Westerners wouldn't come and kill you if they wouldn't like how you portray them, or their god, or their country.

 

That's why it's always Europe: we know more about it and there's no political BS in showing Europe.

[Andreas Amell]

I'm Asian and I have no great expectations for Asian looking characters in Dragon Age. Might as well ask for Asian Dragons to appear too. I can always get my Asian fix elsewhere, and they won't have western accents in them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Because we don't know much bout ancient Khmers, or Maya, or ancient Egypt. Not as much as we know about Europe, of course.

 

Another problem is political correctness. Modern Western culture tends to portray other cultures as good as it can. For instance, if they show Native Americans culture, they NEVER show how NA tortured their enemies, or slaughtered each other, or how some tribes practiced cannibalism. In Hollywood movies Native Americans, like, 90% of time just say something really, really deep. And look a way wiser than those stupid Westerners.

 

But no one, ever, would play a game where's everything is good with dominant culture.

 

And they can't show us muslim culture 'cause lots of muslims just don't have sense of humour.

But they can show western culture 'cause Westerners wouldn't come and kill you if they wouldn't like how you portray them, or their god, or their country.

 

That's why it's always Europe: we know more about it and there's no political BS in showing Europe.

 

This too. If we can portray the world without having to be politically correct, I am all for it.

 

I will speak for ancient Asia, specifically Southeast Asia. Take the Khmers. It was an era of total obedience to the King. The King was seen as an actual God. Hence the name Devaraja. Deva means God, Raja means King. In other words, it was totalitarian and the success of the Empire was highly dependent on Kings. Good Devarajas will construct roads, build water catchment areas, build hospital, outposts, etc. Bad ones would squander around and let the Empire be attacked by neighboring Dai Viet or Champa or Sukhotai. 

 

Or take the example of another activity :- Having slaves and concubines. Slavery was a very real and tolerated in Southeast Asia, right up until Europeans came, especially the British and put a stop to it. So was Piracy in fact, which had backing of many noble families in the region, until the Europeans put a choke on it. 

 

Then there are other systems as well such as Sistem Kerah dan Serah. It was a system where you had to give up a portion of the farm produce or the animal produce that you worked for up to the monarchs.  Called it forceful taxation in the name of loyalty. 

 

Then there is the relationship between the state and the religion. The West underwent the Age of Enlightenment but Asia did not. The relationship between the state and the religion was so deep, so symbiotic (from their viewpoint, parasitic from our viewpoint). The priestly class was afforded special protection, was given tons of animals to be sacrificed for rituals to make the King powerful, etc. 

 

There was also the imperialism. Many speak of Europeans as the imperialists but Asians have been attacking and practicing imperialism amongst each other for centuries. There was frequent war between the Khmer, the Champa, Dai Viet, Sukhotai. In the Malay Archipelago, there was frequent conflicts between kingdoms in Malay Peninsula and in Sumatra. China's history is bloody and violent with many internal conflicts. So was India. 

 

The West has this idea of the East, of Asians. While that ideal is nice, it ultimately is restricting in the same way the Dalish viewpoint of Ancient Elves was restricting. 

 

 

I'm Asian and I have no great expectations for Asian looking characters in Dragon Age. Might as well ask for Asian Dragons to appear too. I can always get my Asian fix elsewhere, and they won't have western accents in them.

 

Yeah, I have been saying this for a while now....As an Asian, I know how many Asians feel about their own culture and history...But Westerners don't want to accept that for some reason...

[o Ventus]

 

Yeah, I have been saying this for a while now....As an Asian, I know how many Asians feel about their own culture and history...But Westerners don't want to accept that for some reason...

I can't think of many Westerners who particularly care if Asians accept their own culture or not.

[Aov]

There may be reasons in the lore for Vivienne to be who she is, and also climate reasons to have the shade of skin she has, but I believe Vivienne looks out of place for a completely different reason -

She is still the only black woman.

As I mentioned in my previous post about cosplay, there are lots of white people in the inner circle. (Please note that I'm talking about Dragon age Inquisition only. I'm not talking about all the NPCs or other characters in the previous two games.) So in Dragon Age Inquisition, there are many white companions and advisors, like Cullen, Leliana, Morrigan, Cassandra, Blackwall, to name a few... but there is only one Vivienne (arguably black) and one Dorian (arguably Indian) and one Josephine (arguably Latina).

When only one person represents an entire race group, I find that to be problematic.

And that's what I think is truly out of place about Vivienne. It's not her origins in the lore that's weird. It's what's completely outside the lore - it's breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, that Vivienne is still the only black person in the Inner Circle in the Inquisition story.

To be a geek about it, Vivienne is truly "a paragon of her kind."

But there is a sad burden and a huge amount of pressure on a person to be an "example" for their race. That is called tokenization, to have a lone individual represent the entire African diaspora.

Now, I am truly happy and grateful that Vivienne does exist. I will probably buy as much Vivienne merchandise as is possible, including a Vivienne doll with at least 3 outfits and an ornate Orlesian trunk to put it all in, plus a swordstaff so she can stab people with a blade as effectively as she slays them with her killer fashion instinct. I also require an Alistair 1/6 scale action figure to pair with my Vivienne doll, only Alistair has to be able to talk in addition to having 3 outfits stored in a sensible Fereldan trunk.

I just think there can be more than one Vivienne in a Dragon Age game. We can certainly have, say, two black people in the inner circle at one time, and that's not going to break the system, or the lore.

[Sarielle]

 Might as well ask for Asian Dragons

 

DO WANT. Those designs are so much cooler imo.

[L. Han]

I would be classified as an Asian and I really don't feel the need to be represented in games or whatever the kind. It's just a game and the developers can chose what the game should look like or be about. I rather let them take the helm and telling a story by choosing their own inspirations, picking their own influences, shaping their own identity, and forming their own message. Rather than playing a game of jeopardy and put things that can easily seem out of place.

 

Although the industry has taken a lot of inspiration from other cultures already, more than you think. Especially when it comes to weapons and armor. A lot of swords in DA:I seem to have some middle-eastern influences.

 

And really though, if people really feel the need to be represented, they can always try to make their own games. Koreans, Chinese, Vietnamese people have made plenty of games that feature mostly east Asian (or Asian idealistic) looks.

[L. Han]

There may be reasons in the lore for Vivienne to be who she is, and also climate reasons to have the shade of skin she has, but I believe Vivienne looks out of place for a completely different reason -

She is still the only black woman.

As I mentioned in my previous post about cosplay, there are lots of white people in the inner circle. (Please note that I'm talking about Dragon age Inquisition only. I'm not talking about all the NPCs or other characters in the previous two games.) So in Dragon Age Inquisition, there are many white companions and advisors, like Cullen, Leliana, Morrigan, Cassandra, Blackwall, to name a few... but there is only one Vivienne (arguably black) and one Dorian (arguably Indian) and one Josephine (arguably Latina).

When only one person represents an entire race group, I find that to be problematic.

And that's what I think is truly out of place about Vivienne. It's not her origins in the lore that's weird. It's what's completely outside the lore - it's breaking the fourth wall, so to speak, that Vivienne is still the only black person in the Inner Circle in the Inquisition story.

To be a geek about it, Vivienne is truly "a paragon of her kind."

But there is a sad burden and a huge amount of pressure on a person to be an "example" for their race. That is called tokenization, to have a lone individual represent the entire African diaspora.

Now, I am truly happy and grateful that Vivienne does exist. I will probably buy as much Vivienne merchandise as is possible, including a Vivienne doll with at least 3 outfits and an ornate Orlesian trunk to put it all in, plus a swordstaff so she can stab people with a blade as effectively as she slays them with her killer fashion instinct. I also require an Alistair 1/6 scale action figure to pair with my Vivienne doll, only Alistair has to be able to talk in addition to having 3 outfits stored in a sensible Fereldan trunk.

I just think there can be more than one Vivienne in a Dragon Age game. We can certainly have, say, two black people in the inner circle at one time, and that's not going to break the system, or the lore.

 

Dragon Age is based off a lot on established Tolkien-esque fantasy lore. As well as established D&D mythos. Both of which are mostly comprised with Caucasians. If you look even further, you will find out that Tolkien stuff is based off Nordic and Germanic Mythology, which is based off 'white people'.

 

Also, I don't really see why having only 1 'black person' (Vivienne) really posses any problems. This is just a game, it isn't suppose to represent reality or reflect it. They can make commentary about it, but that's more or less the writers expressing their thoughts on a specific issue.

[L. Han]

^Really though, I agree with you wholeheartedly. But tossing people in for the sake of it won't really help enrich the environment. It would feel more like 'today in the past with magic'. They will need a lot more world building (something quite lacking in DA:I) to help flesh out new cultures in it's fullest. Because right now, the world of Dragon Age is actually very tiny.

 

I would like to point to an MMORPG, Guild Wars. It has a magnitude of cultures in the game and it all feels just about right. Just to list a few:

 

3 Continents. Elona, Tyria, and Cantha. With about many countries and factions within them.

 

Elona:

-Vabbi, Persian influences

-Istan, Northern African influences, Ancient Egyptian architectures.

-Kourna, Arabic Sultanate influences.

 

Cantha:

Kaineng, Ming Dynasty China

Shing Jea, Feudal Japan inspired

Many locations based on smaller cultures.

 

Tyria:

-Ascalon, Anglo-Saxon esq

-Kryta, South American styles

and more

 

All three continents feel very different from one another. Ranging from the environments, customs, names, fighting styles, and much much more. Even each country within those continents feel very different from one another.

 

And the awesome part about this is how well they were fleshed out. You even had quests that involved joining diplomatic envoys to greet other cultures, which really adds a layer of uniqueness to each continental faction. The closest thing to having something feel foreign is Josephine. But even then they couldn't resist making her very well integrated with the Orlesian customs. Making her virtually an Orlesian, with some other foreign bits and pieces.

[Aov]

Life and art are constantly in a dialogue, back and forth, back and forth. They both influence and reinforce each other. I think Karolis made a whole post about that. You should read whatever Karolis wrote.

 

Sure, a video game does not have to reflect real-world society. It is under no obligations to show the world as it is. That is the beauty of storytelling. Real-world stories are lifted directly from examples and experience - they're called biographies for a reason, folks.

 

Fiction is different. Fiction requires metaphor. Fiction is not going to lift directly from examples and experience. Fiction is going to change it, just a bit, just a part. That is what makes art. That is what makes creativity. At least in my opinion.

 

But oftentimes, the coincidence that a lot of fantasy worlds use the same metaphors indicates a different problem.  A setting that conveniently mimics Western Europe. Houses that are similar to the construction techniques of the Tudor era. Religious institutions that have clothes and holy scriptures very similar to modern day Protestant Christianity.

 

That's the setting in 90% or more of fantasy video games today.

 

Where are the Jewish rabbis? Where are the Muslim muezzin? Where are the _____?  (insert title of faith leader that I'm too ignorant and lazy to write here) Or are all religious institutions in video games supposed to be Christian only? Priests, bishops, they're healing classes in standard RPGs, or they're the Templar Order (paladins) and the Chantry (clerics).

 

There is something called creativity, and then there is something called more-than-coincidence.