270 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeCode]

Given that we're talking about the limits of imagination, possibly never.

Limits of imagination can go on forever. Limits of resources cannot.

[Vanth]

It is quite easy to make the PC look asian, don't you think?

[Fade-Touched-in-the-head]

Here's an idea... why don't we make games that are designed to be good games rather than delivery systems for social agendas,

It's not that simple. Western society has become too over-sensitive and alas there's no putting that genie back in the bottle.

You don't represent every existing minority in a game then you have a group of people complaining that the game isn't representative enough. You include any minority whatsoever and you have another group of people accusing you of peddling a social agenda.

[xrayspex73]

As an asian-american myself, I would worry that if Bioware added it, it would probably lean towards the stereotypical "Star Wars Trade Federation alien" caricature with the Fu Manchu mustaches that would make Andy Rooney proud.

 

While I appreciate Bioware's attempt to be very PC and inclusive, I would rather they do it only if it makes sense. All I really care about is the stories. 

 

Dragon Age does not HAVE be a united colors of benneton ad.

[Karolis]

Here's an idea... why don't we make games that are designed to be good games rather than delivery systems for social agendas, 

Revolutionary stuff I know but its just an idea.

 

Because we've been doing that for forever many centuries, and the demographics of the audience are changing.

 

More people complaining doesn't mean gamers have become whiny; it means gamers and the society they live in are different than they were back in whatever [your?] day.

[Karolis]

 

The problem isn't that Bioware & friends sit down to make a game and go "Hey, know what'd be cool? Let's exclude Asians!"

 

The problem is that, by default, most media producers never even consider the possibility that Asians (/black/latin/etc) characters could have a place in their world. 

 

 

There's a TED talk by a Nigerian author (Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie) about what she calls the "danger of a single story". TLDR, she grew up in Nigeria but read UK/US kids books because that's all she had. So when she began writing stories of her own, they were inevitably about white kids who drank ginger beer in the snow. Despite a) being black, b. never having seen snow, and c) having no idea what ginger beer was.

 

Me, I'm South Asian and grew up in the SW US. The stories I wrote as a kid? Yeah, full of freckly redheads in snowy forests. Not because I was consciously excluding myself, but because I thought that was just, you know, how stories went. People like me simply did not exist in books, the end.

 

Okay, fast forward buncha years. First run of DAO: I make a dark-skinned Cousland. She doesn't look like me, because I still find it uncomfortably strange to see people with my coloring in pop culture, but she's got skin that's way darker than tan, even in game. But she still had white parents.... with pretty blond hair and white Fergus and white Oren aaaand I quickly scrambled together some backstory and went on.

 

My ultimate favorite DAO mod, though, was called "Ferelden Racelift" (which, best name ever). It turned a whole slew of random NPCs into variously colored and facially-structured folks. Was great. I still do a double take when I see Ser Jory as a white guy, cause he was clearly black in my PT.

 

Look, there's a difference between tokenism and having a 3d character who happens to be of X minority. Not Tokenism: Dorian, Isabela, Krem, Sera... they're real people, not some cardboard dudes of a funny color. Tokenism: if my black Ser Jory were the only black guy in all of Thedas, and walked into Ostagar acting out five black stereotypes at once. And then still got run through at the Joining.

 

 

The moment Bioware introduced real-world cultures/languages/etc into its fictional universe, it made the but-it's-fantasy argument a piece of wet cardboard. Picking and choosing which RL bits to use in Thedas? Fine. Having all those bits be the same unimaginative whitebread crap that's in every other fantasy series ever? A) boring. b. a crappy thing to do, intentional or not, to your increasingly diverse audience.

 

As for the lore argument, it's frankly idiotic. If the devs decide they want integrate an Asian culture, it's almost trivial. New continent? Not hard. Nobody's heard of it? So what? The Americas. Australia. Plus, Thedas has plenty of room -- there's the Donarks, or whatever is south of the Korcari wilds, or lands west of that mountain range on the western edge of Orlais. Then a quick justification: haven't seen [East] Asian-ish people before? Mountain range in the way; they just now figured out zeppelins to get across. 

 

Or, you know, dragons. Blight. Gods making bad decisions. 

 

Games being designed to be good games? Yeah, I want that as much as anyone. BUT once concern over the prettiness of a fictional world outweighs the real life fuckery faced by its consumers, then I take issue.

[SnakeCode]

Because we've been doing that for forever many centuries, and the demographics of the audience are changing.

 

More people complaining doesn't mean gamers have become whiny; it means gamers and the society they live in are different than they were back in whatever [your?] day.

Hmmm, I wonder. 

 

I wonder just how many people annoyed by this are actually Asian, and how many are white people who spend too much time on Tumblr and enjoy being offended on other people's behalf.

[Karolis]

Hmmm, I wonder. 

 

I wonder just how many people annoyed by this are actually Asian, and how many are white people who spend too much time on Tumblr and enjoy being offended on other people's behalf.

 

Ooh, time for waffle-answer! Some of both, most like.

 

I'm guessing many of the non-Asians, tumblr-er-er-ists?? or otherwise, have some personal stake in this thing -- maybe a minority of their own, or they've had some other close encounter that's convinced them there's a problem.

 

Still, is there something inherently bad about being offended on someone's behalf? Like, I'm offended on behalf of, I dunno, kids that are tortured to death by their parents. Which makes sense, because I have more power than tortured kids, and a better chance of making something happen. Same deal with the white [etc] people. You can't get this kind of thing changed without making [loud, white :D] people aware that there's a problem in the first place.

 

Course, whether the tumblrites [or people here, for that matter] are effective in what they're trying to do...yeah, whole nother question.

 

Fact remains that games -- especially more character-driven DA-ish games -- aren't just for white boys in basements anymore. So the industry has to evolve in some direction, and I have no f'in clue which, but it'll be fun to watch.

[Captain Wiseass]

 

Still, is there something inherently bad about being offended on someone's behalf?

Not inherently, no. You do get people who get patronizing about it, but that's just the ******* gene expressing itself. We've all got one of those.

[Orian Tabris]

I actually really like this idea. Asian characters in DA. Don't know how it could work, though.

[Draining Dragon]

Ooh, time for waffle-answer! Some of both, most like.
 
I'm guessing many of the non-Asians, tumblr-er-er-ists?? or otherwise, have some personal stake in this thing -- maybe a minority of their own, or they've had some other close encounter that's convinced them there's a problem.
 
Still, is there something inherently bad about being offended on someone's behalf? Like, I'm offended on behalf of, I dunno, kids that are tortured to death by their parents. Which makes sense, because I have more power than tortured kids, and a better chance of making something happen. Same deal with the white [etc] people. You can't get this kind of thing changed without making [loud, white :D] people aware that there's a problem in the first place.

This reminds me of the Campaign for Equal Heights in Discworld. It claims to be seeking equal treatment for dwarfs, but it consists entirely of humans and spends the entire time trying to convince the dwarfs that they're being oppressed. The dwarfs really don't care; they just want to get on with their lives.

[animedreamer]

Aside from British, French, German, Italian, Spanish...

 

(I shortened this post because the end part states my thoughts on this more precisely.)

 

If the people of Thedas haven't discovered these people and this culture yet after all this time yet people are fine with them being introduced for some reason, but aren't okay with any actual new fantasy race/culture being added then my question remains..

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Can we please STOP turning EVERYTHING into a representation issue!

 

People are just politely spitballing thoughts about ethnicities in Thedas. There's really no need to get hostile about it.

[animedreamer]

It is quite easy to make the PC look asian, don't you think?

It is and has been since origins, but thats not enough, people want to see guys with wicker hats, and silk robes or something I guess, I don't see why the inherently "Asian" theme character needs to be represented in a place that isn't already itself particularly "Asian" in theme. It's like playing a PnP game in one particular part of a game world that is predominantly Norse mythology and you have that one player who says, I wanna play Yojimbo the Samurai Warrior, simply because he has that one unique handbook with that classes write up, now the DM has to explain why this guy is here despite the setting having never even touched on this other culture even existing, let alone what it is.

 

I know this because when I first got into PnP RPG's I was that one guy. 

[Aov]

I can already tell that Karolis should have written the OP and not me.

 

Also, I had no idea that Dorian was intended to be Indo-European. Now all the Latin Sanskrit references in the Tevinter Imperium make sense.Thank you so much for pointing that out. I apologize for my error.

 

If I may add another thought to the fray, and then disappear for awhile again -

 

Do you remember the Captain Planet cartoon that had as many different races as Burger King could fit on a hamburger meal bag and as  could fit on a Magic School Bus? I hope you've seen the meme. I'm sure you have.

 

I'm going to suggest that the 1990s created a lot of politically correct diversity. It was inclusiveness without very much plot reasoning or empathy or character development - it was diversity "just because."  Given the tenor of some of the arguments posted above, it's this kind of politically correct attitude that Bioware needs to avoid.

 

But now that we as a society have veered away from the 90s multiculturalism, what is there to replace it? In the efforts to get rid of all things School Bus, now we have many cartoons and movies and video games that feature little to no people of color at all. And the justification is often this - "There's no plot reasoning as to why a black/Latino/Asian person would be here anyway." 

 

If people of color are included, they seem to be noticeably "left of center" - and I don't mean politically, but I mean standing arranged to the side, as a best friend, or a mentor, or a martyr. Very rarely a lover, and almost never the lead character. What plot reasoning is there for this kind of portrayal? Are not all people capable of being multi-faceted and interesting enough to have the story revolve around them?

 

Recall, if you will, that the 1990s needed absolutely no plot reasoning either. Yet in the end what we got was an extremely diverse 1990s cast. No motive, but a good result in terms of diversity. Today, I would argue we have a rather bad result, despite any well-meaning motives, thoughts, or intentions.

 

The solution for yesterday is certainly not the solution for today, nor should it be the solution for today. I believe we expect, need, and want an authentic reason to back up an authentic result. I believe we can unite a satisfying backstory with complex and diverse characters. That is what good storytelling does, after all.

[animedreamer]

Doesn't BioWare leave their protagonist open ended enough that you can make them of any color or gender and even sexual orientation? Elder Scroll in a similar vein does the same thing, and thats the thing, BioWare and companies that provide these kinds of outlets are already aware of these things, its why you see same sex relationships in their games, its why you have the ability to make your PC look however you want, whatever race you want. They don't need us to tell them to add more "Asian" people, when the time is right they'll add what they think best fits the story they want to tell. Jade Empire was one of a kind I think, as I still can't recall a western made RPG that had such a heavy Chinese influence and it was a fun and interesting game, Shaolin is the only other game I've played that seemed to be entirely Asian influenced and yet felt natural.

 

Now I'd be a hypocrite if I said I never suggested new races myself but I general lean toward the more mythical stuff so as to challenge the norm already present in the game world.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I think the important distinction here is whether people want Asian looking people in Thedas or Asian culture. I'm totally fine with people having Asian features in some part of Thedas we haven't seen yet, like Seheron, but inexplicably finding out that people in the Anderfells use katanas, practice martial arts and ride Lung dragons would be very weird when the lore has already somewhat confirmed that those people have a culture more similar to Medieval Europe. 

 

Also, if Bioware has to include Asian people and culture into their games to be socially conscious then you have to ask what else do they have to include? What about the Native Americans, Inuit, Australian Aboriginals, Brazilians, Mexicans, Arabs, Baltics, etc. Thedas isn't a perfect reflection of our world's racial diversity and quite frankly it doesn't have to be. 

 

Furthermore, was anyone complaining about the lack of Africans in Jade Empire. I think not.

[Panda]

Here's an idea... why don't we make games that are designed to be good games rather than delivery systems for social agendas, 

Revolutionary stuff I know but its just an idea.

 

Even if you want you can't seperate social reality from videogames with it's agendas.

 

Personally I prefer this way. All these "agendas" have done lot of good to gaming industry. Also to comics, movies etc. Much more inclusive than they were before.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Here's an idea... why don't we make games that are designed to be good games rather than delivery systems for social agendas, 

Revolutionary stuff I know but its just an idea.

 

Yeah, whatever happened to this ? 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Hmmm, I wonder. 

 

I wonder just how many people annoyed by this are actually Asian, and how many are white people who spend too much time on Tumblr and enjoy being offended on other people's behalf.

 

I am an Asian and I do not even understand the point of this thread.

 

I do not need to be represented in a virtual pixelated interactive entertainment. 

 

The more I think about it, the less this "Let's shoehorn a group of extremely diverse people into a game because representation" argument make sense.

 

What does it really accomplish ? Buzzword fulfillment ? Feel good PR ? Some sort of ritual to cleanse Western guilt ? Don't worry, most of us got over the colonialism and imperialism of the past already. 

 

Asia and by that extension, Asians, are an extremely diverse group and that is putting it mildly. There are Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Indians, Malay, Aboriginals, etc. Within them there are even more divisions such as Cantonese, Hokkien, Bugis, Tamil, Malayali, Orang Asli, Organ Laut, etc. Then there is nationalistic division. Cambodians, Thais, Malaysians, Indonesians, Mongolians, Filipinos, etc.

 

I will use myself as an example. I am a Tamil Indian and I am a Malaysian. That is what I am.

 

Or take the artist Aimo. She is a Malaysian Malay. That is what she is. 

 

Or take the voice actor for Dorian Pavus, Ramon Tikaram. He is an Asian who is of Indo-Fijian and Malaysian descent and was from Singapore. 

 

Yeah, turns out Asians are not just Asian-Americans. The reality of Asian is a lot more complicated than that. 

 

Which then begs the obvious question :- "What Asian group, what Asian subgroup is Bioware going to include ?" They obviously cannot include all so which one ? Why that particular group ? Why not the other groups ?

 

With a bit of insight, anyone can see the potential slippery slope and trainwreck waiting to happen.

 

We Asians are not oppressed in gaming in, so we do not need ourselves to be shoehorned into video games out of some buzzword fulfilling agenda. Cheers. 

[SnakeCode]

@Tishen-13 Yup, Asian people, like any other group of people are diverse. The post you quoted is something my GF said aloud when I showed her the thread. She's British (ethnically Chinese) but her parents are Taiwanese, and hate people calling them (or assuming they are) Chinese.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@Tishen-13 Yup, Asian people, like any other group of people are diverse. The post you quoted is something my GF said aloud when I showed her the thread. She's British (ethnically Chinese) but her parents are Taiwanese, and hate people calling them (or assuming they are) Chinese.

 

& you will get similar responses from Asians in general. No offense to the Westerners, especially the North Americans but we Asians really do not care about being represented in games or movies or comics. 

 

Heck my mom saw me commenting and he asked what was I doing and when I explained, she went something like this :- "You youngsters are nuts. Its just a game." 

[animedreamer]

 

Heck my mom saw me commenting and he asked what was I doing and when I explained, she went something like this :- "You youngsters are nuts. Its just a game." 

 

HA! Just like a parent to put things into proper perspective. 

[Ieldra]

I suppose it's not just about the culture for me, but it's also the physical appearance.  When 'Asians' are included in western RPGs, we just end up with vaguely East Asian looking people, never anyone looking Western, Southern or South East Asian.  It's not so much representation, but it's the fact the representation is so skewed.  Thankfully Dorian at least confirms that Indo-Aryan looking people exist in Thedas, but if OP wants more Asians, I'd very much prefer if, for once, we didn't just have Japanese/Chinese.

 

EDIT: what I'm trying to say is that it's not that I am arguing for more representation per se, but that some people's request for more representation is very narrow and, well, unrepresentative.

I suppose I just don't see why not having people of your own ethnicity in a game is a problem. I certainly wouldn't bat an eye if the next two dozen games I play only had characters physically different from my own template, as long as I could make good-looking characters at all. For me it's all about culture. I'm much more bugged by the fact that aspects of my personal philosophy are so often attached exclusively to villains in mainstream media.