270 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

I've been lurking in there. I should have known better than to engage.

 

I wanna hope they're trolling but that might be wishful thinking 

[9TailsFox]

As a black gamer i'm curious as to where all the black people were hiding int he first 2 dragon age games, personaly.

In Antiva and Nevarra.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In Antiva and Nevarra.

Antiva is more Hispanic and Italian than black.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

And if we are not using racial physical characteristics to distinguish someone's race, what are we using. How is Dorian South Asian in character or mannerism?

Because his writer and designers intended him to be South Asian. And Gaider also said that they originally had Tikaram voicing Dorian with an Indian accent (like his father has), but chose to go with the standard English accent that most humans in Thedas have.

 

The problem is that using someone's appearance as the only criteria of their ethnicity is murky territory. Beyonce doesn't look like Lupita Nyong'o, so does that mean that Beyonce isn't black? No. And just because Isabela doesn't look like Vivienne doesn't mean she isn't black either. Your personal interpretation of phenotypes has little value.

[Vanth]

Pffft. If the developers claimed that Solas were black, I suppose you would believe that too, and think that was enough for racial diversity.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Pffft. If the developers claimed that Solas were black, I suppose you would believe that too, and think that was enough for racial diversity.

There is no choice but to believe it. The developers created the universe, so what they says goes. It's called Word of God. Plus there are people who are ethnically black but have pale skin. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Pffft. If the developers claimed that Solas were black, I suppose you would believe that too, and think that was enough for racial diversity.

 

Pffft. Ridiculous hyperbole.  

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Pffft. Ridiculous hyperbole.  

Yep, now she's officially not worth talking to. That was just lazy.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Weird sidenote but race really isn't a thing in Thedas.

 

By that I mean no one makes a distinction about skin coloration. For humans people care far more about whether your from Orlais or Tevinter then whether you have dark skin or fair skin, to the point that I really don't think Thedas even has terms like Black, Caucasian, Hispanic or Asian. Nationality is way more important then skin color. Add that to the fact that Ser Barris has dark skin but comes from a noble Ferelden house that's probably lived there centuries and that Krem is Tevinter but has fair skin while Dorian and his father look more Indian and yet no one even mentions those skin color differences means to me that even if there are "Asian people" in Thedas no one will even waste a thought on their racial features and just focus what country they come from.

 

So "Asians" don't exist in Thedas but a person from the Free Marches for instance may "look Asian" yet at the same time talk with a British accent and possess an Anglicized or Celtic name. Would that count as representation?

[Ieldra]

It has certainly been successfully argued that games should have more characters of race analogous to that of people with African descent in our own world, and DA:I bought into that with characters like Vivienne. If that argument applies, I don't see how that same argument doesn't apply to people of Asian descent. 

It may have been successfully argued, but as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been successfully implemented. Vivienne feels exactly like what I don't like to see: a character with physical features insufficiently anchored in the lore.

 

Note that I do not mind her presence, and I think she's an interesting companion. I don't like that she appears like a black character for the sake of having a black character.

[AresKeith]

It may have been successfully argued, but as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been successfully implemented. Vivienne feels exactly like what I don't like to see: a character with physical features insufficiently anchored in the lore.

 

Note that I do not mind her presence, and I think she's an interesting companion. I don't like that she appears like a black character for the sake of having a black character.

 

But she's not, her heritage is from Rivain

[(Disgusted noise.)]

It may have been successfully argued, but as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been successfully implemented. Vivienne feels exactly like what I don't like to see: a character with physical features insufficiently anchored in the lore.

 

Note that I do not mind her presence, and I think she's an interesting companion. I don't like that she appears like a black character for the sake of having a black character.

Her parents are from Rivain, she was born in the Free Marches and got herself transferred to the Monstimmard Circle from the Ostwick one. She fits perfectly in the lore and your issues are your own.

[Ieldra]

But she's not, her heritage is from Rivain

As I said abovethread, random single people don't just have that different physical features. I wouldn't have said anything had she been the first Rivaini we see, but we had a dark-skinned Rivaini in DA2, and she didn't look anything like Vivienne. It's not a big thing really, I just dislike to leave it unmentioned in this context just because it touches a real-world social issue.

Edit:
To clarify where I'm coming from: regardless of what I think about DAI's implementation, it sets a precedent and if the next game has a character who looks like Vivienne, that's perfectly fine and I won't say a word about it if I talk about that game.

[Karolis]

Asia and by that extension, Asians, are an extremely diverse group and that is putting it mildly.

 

 

we Asians really do not care

 

Nah,c'mon, you can't claim BOTH "Asians are hella diverse!" AND "I speak for all of them!"

 

To clarify, I'm not disputing the first point at all. I'm all with you on Asia being a giant and hugely heterogeneous continent, and yeah, "Asian" as an identifier usually means only light-skinned dark-haired East Asians. Okay, stick some "easts" in the previous posts, if you like. Or, I dunno, there must be some fancier word for that region? Sinosphere? 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Nah,c'mon, you can't claim BOTH "Asians are hella diverse!" AND "I speak for all of them!"

 

To clarify, I'm not disputing the first point at all. I'm all with you on Asia being a giant and hugely heterogeneous continent, and yeah, "Asian" as an identifier usually means only light-skinned dark-haired East Asians. Okay, stick some "easts" in the previous posts, if you like. Or, I dunno, there must be some fancier word for that region? Sinosphere? 

Well "Asian" is a problem, not only because Asia is a giant continent with a physically diverse population, but "Asian" is also a problem because it means different things in English depending on where you say it. In the US and Canada is usually means East Asian, but if someone says it in the UK, they usually mean South Asian.

[Kaibe]

As I said abovethread, random single people don't just have that different physical features. I wouldn't have said anything had she been the first Rivaini we see, but we had a dark-skinned Rivaini in DA2, and she didn't look anything like Vivienne. It's not a big thing really, I just dislike to leave it unmentioned in this context just because it touches a real-world social issue.

Edit:
To clarify where I'm coming from: regardless of what I think about DAI's implementation, it sets a precedent and if the next game has a character who looks like Vivienne, that's perfectly fine and I won't say a word about it if I talk about that game.

What? So because they don't look the same they can't be of the same ethnicity? And here I thought that people occasionally don't all look the same. Silly me. Please correct me if that's not what you meant.

[SnakeCode]

Well "Asian" is a problem, not only because Asia is a giant continent with a physically diverse population, but "Asian" is also a problem because it means different things in English depending on where you say it. In the US and Canada is usually means East Asian, but if someone says it in the UK, they usually mean South Asian.

Yeah, I think it's kind of an American-centric viewpoint that "Asian" just means east Asian people (Chinese, Japanese, Korean etc) because it's associated with what people think of as Asian-American.

[Karolis]

So every form of fiction must now be a parallel of real world diversity?

 

Every form of fiction needs to connect to its audience somehow. So, every form of fiction needs to parallel -- to whatever degree it sees fit -- some elements  of the lives, people, culture, societal issues, guilty pleasures, fluffy kittens, whatever, of its intended consumers. If it didn't, who would play it? Who would care?

 

If that parallel extends into some real world area, like racial diversity, then you as the author need to make a choice. Your world can show:

 

1) the situation in the real world as it is, as objectively as possible

(example: varied racial percentages, and racial minorities get **** from society)

 

2) the situation in the real world as you see it, subjectively

(example: ye olde world of white dudes, plus occasional lady)

 

3) the way you would like things to be

(racially diverse groups, all fairly treated)

 

4) the way you really do not want things to be

(concentration camps? nuclear wars? fuckin zombie elephants, I dunno)

 

So, probably any of those could be done well, given thought and foresight and non-jackassery. But, as it is -- because real world unfairness is everywhere and also all kinds of complicated -- what we often get is a knee-jerk #2 with respect to some issue or the other. Here, it happens to be the hella-white-people issue.

 

In this case, some handful of us would really like it if Bioware would think about race with respect to the kinds of people who haven't yet shown up.

 

It isn't about making every fantasy totally realistic. It's about questioning which realistic aspects you choose to include, understanding what made you choose them, and knowing your audience. 

[Karolis]

Well "Asian" is a problem, not only because Asia is a giant continent with a physically diverse population, but "Asian" is also a problem because it means different things in English depending on where you say it. In the US and Canada is usually means East Asian, but if someone says it in the UK, they usually mean South Asian.

 

Oh, I'm totally with you there. No question, a better way to say who you/I/we mean would be nice.

 

I just wanted it to be clear that "let's have more X minorities in this game" and "who the **** are we talking about anyway" are different questions.

[Annos Basin]

I think it'd be fine if including different looks simply comes along with avoiding Same Face Syndrome on characters who are supposed to be memorable. People can look varied, I don't know if ancestors travelled more than we've heard of or is it just something about living in a magical world, but that shouldn't be a big deal since Thedas already have their own races dividing themselves from each other.

 

I'd be actually happiest if we got introduced to a new fantasy race, with probably very different culture since they live on their own as such minority we haven't even heard of them before. Though learning more details about ones we know already would be more than enough too. Anyway I'd rather never see fantasy or scifi based on real cultures strictly. I've seen too awkward and even hostile examples already. Mixing things and coming up with your own stuff offers freer writing, or I don't know about that, but freer interpreting for audience at least.

 

 

This is a pretty common trait in humanity, I think. Terroritorialism... mental, physical, or spiritual.

I think Dragon Age should hang onto this idea. Especially if we'll ever wander into the qunari area. People are people everywhere. Totalitarianism, religions, extreme thinking, stagnation, revolutions, insanity, wisdom, love, anything humans are capable of, have happened in so many parts of the globe and during several eras, you don't need to stay "loyal" to your inspirations from real life to keep it real. (I thought about writing something about this into another topic few days ago but I was busy at the time. Um... Here we go anyway, as I already wrote as much here apparently.) On the topic, I'd be more interested in including realistically varied people into stories set in real world towns. Though if character desingers were inspired to create a fereldan with asian features, I personally wouldn't turn it down just for the sake of it. (As long as they won't come with the stereotyping.)

[Karolis]

I suppose I just don't see why not having people of your own ethnicity in a game is a problem. I certainly wouldn't bat an eye if the next two dozen games I play only had characters physically different from my own template, as long as I could make good-looking characters at all. For me it's all about culture. I'm much more bugged by the fact that aspects of my personal philosophy are so often attached exclusively to villains in mainstream media.   

 

I think I see it as a problem because it's not just an isolated game thing; it's everywhere, and it contributes to making life needlessly and unfairly difficult for the people involved.

 

Far as I can tell, it goes something like this: I don't see anybody like me in games/books/movies/anywhere. So my default view of the world becomes "only white people go around being heroes, or flying starships, or being scientists, or, actually, doing anything important". I get to believing (unconsciously) that I'm simply incapable of doing these things, so I never try, nor do any of the others who look like me. We end up sitting around in our neat little racial pigeonhole of whatever the current stereotype is. We run the streets/form gangs/run drugs because we're supposed to. It's what we've been told all our lives that people like us do, and then everyone's like KID'S GOTTA GUN and we get shot, oops.

 

Yes, that's something of hyperbole. No, I personally am not playing DA:I in between my drug mule runs. But it's the kind of thing that happens.

 

Okay, new example. You're a white dude (in this example; I don't actually know you). Everyone you see in media looks like you, though sometimes they might be female. Your view of the world is "white people save everything!" You're all hot ****, check you out, blah blah. Some years later you're the big boss of some company, all set to hire some sweet new underlings. Here's a big pile of applications! But this one has an East Asian sounding name, and subconsciously you're like, wtf those guys are foreigners, can I really trust them? Only white people are world-savers...nah let's go with Sir White Dude over here.

 

That one's for real, no hyperbole. There are some cool (in a depressing way) studies of bosses given resumes with and without names attached. It's fascinating stuff, actually. In a gross and morbid 5-car-pileup kind of way.

[tmp7704]

As I said abovethread, random single people don't just have that different physical features. I wouldn't have said anything had she been the first Rivaini we see, but we had a dark-skinned Rivaini in DA2, and she didn't look anything like Vivienne. It's not a big thing really, I just dislike to leave it unmentioned in this context just because it touches a real-world social issue.

As already discussed in this very thread black people in DAO/DA2 had appearances which weren't very similar to RL black people due to engine/model/textures shortcomings. They were able to address this when the game was switched to the new engine. Same way suddenly everyone in Thedas have faces with some actual texture to it, instead of smooth playdough from the previous installments.

[Aov]

Yay, I'm thinking someone has read the Freakonomics chapter called "A Roshanda by Any Other Name." Might it be you, Karolis?

 

Regardless, Freakonomics is hardly necessary to explain what's going on here.

 

A lack of positive representation and frequent representation of minorities is not specific to just Dragon Age. Rather, it affects all games in the roleplaying genre. It affects all video games in general. It affects the entertainment and media industry in general.

 

It affects life in general.

 

The thing is, how do you solve a problem so big? How do you solve something that plagues not just one story, or one game, or one activity, but has permeated into the very fabric of our society?

 

How do you change society?

 

 

You change it by remembering that the fabric of society is, in fact, composed of tiny threads. Which means taking the problem and the fight down to the smallest individual thing.

 

Which means asking the question "why is there no diversity?" with respect to something as specific as Dragon Age.

 

That is why racism exists as a legacy. Because it takes a heck of a lot of time and hard work to deal with little tiny threads. Some days, I wonder if burning the entire fabric to the ground would be a better solution, but that's a rather hopeless and world-weary concept that I don't like to indulge.

 

So I'll propose a new plan -

 

Please, if the plot of Dragon Age can teach you anything -- yes, you, person reading this post of mine, as you are and can and should be anyone of any race or sex or sexuality or social class -- please let it teach you that something big and powerful and oppressive can be defeated, undone, and unmade. That no matter how many people try to tell you the world can only exist as it was and as it is, you can still fight to achieve something glorious and new. There are a lot of people who will want to resist, because change is scary, as it always is. But with change comes a chance for peace. And love. Love, too.

 

Or maybe, love always.

[animedreamer]

It has certainly been successfully argued that games should have more characters of race analogous to that of people with African descent in our own world, and DA:I bought into that with characters like Vivienne. If that argument applies, I don't see how that same argument doesn't apply to people of Asian descent. 

 

I don't even see that, as there have been dark skinned people in DA since origins, whether their features were supported by the game engine, or they were poorly done, is likely more the issue than not being represented at all. I'm also very sure no "Africans" care about whether or not Dragon Age caters to them or not. I will also bet Vivienne's appearance in DA:I was 100% writer choice and no elses. 

[RINNZ]

Here's an idea... why don't we make games that are designed to be good games rather than delivery systems for social agendas,

Revolutionary stuff I know but its just an idea.

WOAH! CALM DOWN STEPHEN HAWING.

you can't just start blowing people s minds like that.