1602 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

We will get an Elven kingdom or elven genocide

 

I'd like to see the elves have a safe haven where they can live on their own terms, and have the freedom to follow their own religion and culture. I rather like Addai's idea about establishing a pocket reality through the same magic that created the Crossroads, and allowing the Dalish to have a safe haven where they can rebuild their strength and live in peace. Technically speaking, the elven Inquisitor acquiring the knowledge from the Well of Sorrows could, hypothetically, allow the main character to learn the long lost secrets that allowed the ancients to craft the artificial reality that houses all the Eluvians of Thedas.

 

It's something that I like enough that I'd choose it as the ending for my own Dragon Age story - Revas and Merrill (who performed extensive research on the Eluvians) create a safe haven for the Dalish, and during the next Arlathvenn, they lead the People to a new future.

[Eliastion]

To you it doesn't. It's a blatant sign of the systematic oppression.

Ok. Now please, tell me: what is systematically oppressive in the fact that some group needs the only institution responsible for creating legally binding marriages if they want their marriages be official? A marriage needs to be confirmed and recorded by the Chantry, that's one of Chantry's responsibilities in andrastian countries like Ferelden and it is the same for everyone.
The fact that an elf can't advance in Chantry hierarchy - that's another topic - but the fact that there is one state religion and all weddings are religious has nothing to do with elves being oppressed. There's no religious freedom there, of course, but that affects humans in the same way. City elves are andrastian people living in an andrastian country - and so they have their andrastian weddings. Just like everyone else, really. Any issues in this particular area are religion-based, not race-based.

[Addai]

The fact that an elf can't advance in Chantry hierarchy - that's another topic -

No, that is the topic. And you can't "advance" if you're not even present.

[TEWR]

They called the Origins slaughter a "riot," too.
 

That could as easily have been young mage children whose abilities hadn't surfaced or simply due to the Veil weakening from the massacre.

 

The origins slaughter? As in what the CE did to Vaughan's men in his estate?

 

As for the mages, I'm not saying the Mages did anything in the attack (other then perhaps defend themselves). I'm convinced the reason for their Abomination-hood is due to the Veil weakening as well from the violence and they got possessed in the process

 

But if it was children.... then that means one thing....

 

Instant Puberty: just add demons.

[Addai]

The origins slaughter? As in what the CE did to Vaughan's men in his estate?

That and Howe's purge of the alienage afterward, which he said was due to a riot there.

[Eliastion]

(...)
The riots were pretty extensive, spanning across the Alienage. The garrison wasn't strong enough to control the Elves and when Howe came along he immediately launched a purge of the Alienage, going so far as to sack the orphanage. It seems that the orphanage also doubled as a shelter for apostate mages (given that there are Abominations there) and the violence and upheaval was so bad it tore the Veil.(...)

I might be going a bit off-topic here, but was I the only one who found the very existance of orphange in Alienage somewhat out of place? City Elves are very community-focused, they tend to know each other and there seem to exist an extensive network of blood relations... One would think that this kind of community just wouldn't create orphans at all - a child would generally always have some relatives and refusing responsibility for such a child would lead to quite a bit of ostracism... And even if really everyone died, there would always be someone willing to take the child in since, you know, elves helping each other and all that.
Yet we have an orphange. Or had, at least. Do you think it's something they really thought about (how it would function in Alienage community) before including it, or was it more of a "ok, they are poor, obviously there are some orphans and we need to show how evil Rendon Howe is" with no reflection about orphange's function in Alienage whatsoever?

[Eliastion]

No, that is the topic. And you can't "advance" if you're not even present.

I'm pretty sure there were references if not appearances of Chantry sisters that were, in fact, elven. Which, btw, sprung a debate concerning "how can Leliana open Chantry to other races when it is open" on these very boards.
And not, sorry, connecting everything to everything else, while an attractive way to find oppression everywhere (if you're into such things) but doesn't help one bit in understanding of complex social situations.

[LobselVith8]

I'm pretty sure there were references if not appearances of Chantry sisters that were, in fact, elven. Which, btw, sprung a debate concerning "how can Leliana open Chantry to other races when it is open" on these very boards.
And not, sorry, connecting everything to everything else, while an attractive way to find oppression everywhere (if you're into such things) but doesn't help one bit in understanding of complex social situations.

 

The Masked Empire also makes reference to the Chantry being closed to the elves (in terms of elves being allowed to join), and even to the Divine refusing to publicly talk positively about the elves (which is mentioned in the scene between Leliana and Celene).

[TEWR]

That and Howe's purge of the alienage afterward, which he said was due to a riot there.

 

Well, there was a riot, but as I remember it once the riot was quelled (more then likely by force) Howe led a purge simply for the lulz. 

 

I might be going a bit off-topic here, but was I the only one who found the very existance of orphange in Alienage somewhat out of place? City Elves are very community-focused, they tend to know each other and there seem to exist an extensive network of blood relations... One would think that this kind of community just wouldn't create orphans at all - a child would generally always have some relatives and refusing responsibility for such a child would lead to quite a bit of ostracism... And even if really everyone died, there would always be someone willing to take the child in since, you know, elves helping each other and all that.
Yet we have an orphange. Or had, at least. Do you think it's something they really thought about (how it would function in Alienage community) before including it, or was it more of a "ok, they are poor, obviously there are some orphans and we need to show how evil Rendon Howe is" with no reflection about orphange's function in Alienage whatsoever?

 

I think it makes sense. Take into account how perhaps a number of children are born from rape and how no one bats an eyelash at a missing Elf from the Alienage. Then take into account how often the Alienage is purged and faces riots, which leads to death.

 

An Elven woman who was raped by some guardsman might not want her child due to memories. She might not want to give it over to other families. I'm sure the orphanage sprang up to help deal with such things.

 

I'm pretty sure there were references if not appearances of Chantry sisters that were, in fact, elven. Which, btw, sprung a debate concerning "how can Leliana open Chantry to other races when it is open" on these very boards.
And not, sorry, connecting everything to everything else, while an attractive way to find oppression everywhere (if you're into such things) but doesn't help one bit in understanding of complex social situations.

 

Don't forget Brother Burkel. He was a brother of the Redcliffe Chantry, so Leliana's "opening up to other races, especially Dwarves" is kinda weird.

 

Not sure about Elven priests though. Never seen any before in the games. Nor Templars either.

[Xilizhra]

I think that elves can be lay sisters and such in the Chantry, but can't be ordained.

[Eliastion]

I'm pretty sure (with what we know) we won't see any Mothers of other races, but some presence of non-humans seems to be confirmed regardless. I do consider it likely that they can't be ordained though; still, they are present, just not allowed to get any deeper/higher.

And as for the orphange - I don't say there are no orphans in Alienage, just that they seem like a community that handles such things differently, with little place for dedicated institution. Though it's hard to say how would it go if Chantry set it up without asking. One of ideas I had was that it would likely become a place where disproportionately many elf-blooded children (rather than elves) end up.

[MisterJB]

Purges and riots are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are close companions.

[TEWR]

Purges and riots are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are close companions.

 

True. But generally, a purge would happen as the riot was being quelled, not after it's been dealt with. 

 

From what I recall, it was stated somewhere that when the Elves riot, the guards would just lock down the Alienage and let the Elves do whatever they wanted to their own homes until they settled down again.

[MisterJB]

It would be exceedingly easy to justify a quelling of the elves after they rioted.

[Gervaise]

When it talks of Lelianna opening the Chantry to other races, I think it means the priesthood.   There have always been lay sisters and brothers of other races.   When we save the elf girl from molten gold in DA2 she ends up joining the Chantry.

 

As for the orphanage, if you sleep with the elf servant in the noble origin in DAO and she is killed, her little girl ends up begging on the streets in the alienage in Denerim.   Clearly no one in the alienage is taking care of her.    It probably varies from family to family how much they concern themselves with the children of others, even their own relatives.    Since many of them are quite badly off it probably is a case of priorities; you care for your own immediate children first.    Then there are the elf bloodied.   Their situation is likely the worst since the other elves have no reason to want to help the orphans of mixed matings, particularly if they are the result of rape.    Michel was struggling on the streets of Orlais after the death of his mother when a noble spotted his potential as a fighter and took him in.    On the whole, Chantry orphanages are the only hope for unwanted or orphaned children if they are not old enough to be scooped up by the local thieves guild or to run with a gang.

[Addai]

I'm pretty sure there were references if not appearances of Chantry sisters that were, in fact, elven. Which, btw, sprung a debate concerning "how can Leliana open Chantry to other races when it is open" on these very boards.

If there are such references, by all means cite them.

It would be exceedingly easy to justify a quelling of the elves after they rioted.

Hence the point of calling them riots.

[Eliastion]

If there are such references, by all means cite them.

The person just before your post gave you an example.

[Addai]

The person just before your post gave you an example.

I know there are elven Andrastians. My canon Warden is one. I'm asking for references of elven clergy.

[Wulfram]

I know there are elven Andrastians. My canon Warden is one. I'm asking for references of elven clergy.

 

David Gaider wrote....

Become Andrastians, yes. Become members of the clergy, also yes-- though it's exceedingly rare.

[Heimdall]

I think that elves can be lay sisters and such in the Chantry, but can't be ordained.

Yes, in DA2 Hawke can get a letter from the Elven servant that escaped the Harriman estate saying that she had become a sister.

[vertigomez]

Okay, this is completely off-topic (err, with the current strain of conversation, not with the thread as a whole), but I was wondering what you folks thought about male elves and their perceived lack of masculinity? Both in and out of universe.

Like, from a meta standpoint you get a lot of people groaning when male elven love interests are announced-- they want someone burlier, hairier, more traditionally masculine, etc. Which is fine! Because everyone has different tastes and I'm certainly on board with the whole classic knight in shining armor thing, whether that LI is into men/women/errbody. But even someone like Fenris, all brooding and baritone and big swords just doesn't quite make the cut because, hey... he's a skinny elf.

And more relevant to my inquiry, there are plenty of in-game instances of elven dudes decried as being... Elfeminate. In Origins, Zevran will say that the Crows recruit elves because humans find them beautiful, and later he'll say that his experiences weren't so different from "the other elven boys in the whorehouse". Oghren jokes that Zevran's got small breasts for a girl, hardened Leliana will make a comment about his penis size ("let's see what's in those trousers" / "there are rumors about you elves, and I intend to see them proved untrue before I even consider a tumble"). If romancing Fenris as a male Hawke, Gamlen's all, "so you're into elves, huh? I guess I don't have to ask which one of you's the girl." If you're playing a Qunquisitor, Bull says that you and he have to be careful so as not to break the furniture... or the elves.

And we know that elves don't grow beards, and I honestly have no idea about body hair but I'm willing to bet if they have any at all, it's a lot less than can be said of a human/dwarf/qunari of the same sex.

I don't recall if anyone ever makes a crack at Solas, but eh, it wouldn't surprise me... anyway, I was just musing and wondering what other people's thoughts were on what it would be like growing up as an elven man, how different the experience would be for city elves versus the Dalish, that kinda thing.

[Addai]

*snip*

Thank you for the citation.
 

I don't recall if anyone ever makes a crack at Solas, but eh, it wouldn't surprise me... anyway, I was just musing and wondering what other people's thoughts were on what it would be like growing up as an elven man, how different the experience would be for city elves versus the Dalish, that kinda thing.

I'm not sure what you're asking. If standards of masculinity are different? I'd say not much, since the elven LIs do not suffer the same scrawny body models as the NPC elves and sadly the PC elves as well. Nelaros who is described as handsome is a blacksmith and looks fairly robust. Also elven concept art guy from Origins (mm, concept art guy). I think the artists should just give up the idea of distinguishing the races to the point that the elven PCs look like famine victims.

[vertigomez]

I'm not sure what you're asking. If standards of masculinity are different? I'd say not much, since the elven LIs do not suffer the same scrawny body models as the NPC elves and sadly the PC elves as well. Nelaros who is described as handsome is a blacksmith and looks fairly robust. Also elven concept art guy from Origins (mm, concept art guy). I think the artists should just give up the idea of distinguishing the races to the point that the elven PCs look like famine victims.

Sorry, I was rambling and my thoughts didn't come out quite as clear as I'd hoped.

I figure among other elves it's not really a problem-- like you said, lots of your fellows in the CE origin think Nelaros is handsome, and I'm sure the same could be said of Tamlen as a DE. It's more how elf guys are perceived by other races.

[MoonDrummer]

I have a question, the some of the vallaslin designs have changed from Da:O to DA:I, is this just bioware changing the designs or do the Dalish clans all have different designs?

[Elfyoth]

I think that elves can be lay sisters and such in the Chantry, but can't be ordained.

Yeah I think you are right, Templars are Lay Sisters I think? That then became templars? I think that Elf can become Lay Sisters cuz Gaider have confirmed they can be Templars in the order.