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Elven Support Thread- No Jaws Of Hakkon Spoilers please! :D


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#351
Eliastion

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Maybe first agree on a definition?

 

 

"4. Armor is extremely heavy and renders its wearer immobile.—Wrong.

An entire suit of field armor (that is, armor for battle) usually weighs between 45 and 55 lbs. (20 to 25 kg), with the helmet weighing between 4 and 8 lbs. (2 to 4 kg)—less than the full equipment of a fireman with oxygen gear, or what most modern soldiers have carried into battle since the nineteenth century. Moreover, while most modern equipment is chiefly suspended from the shoulders or waist, the weight of a well-fitted armor is distributed all over the body. It was not until the seventeenth century that the weight of field armor was greatly increased in order to render it bulletproof against ever more accurate firearms. At the same time, however, full armor became increasingly rare and only vital parts of the body, such as the head, torso, and hands, remained protected by metal plate."

 

source: "Arms and Armor -- Common Misconceptions and Frequently Asked Questions" 

http://www.metmuseum...ams/hd_aams.htm

 

 

Since there's no firearms in DA you can surely find some middle ground.

The idea that heavy armor (whether it was descriptor used historically or not) would render the wearer nigh-immobile (just by putting it on or after five minuts of combat in it) is unbelievably stupid. Armors were created as protection - but it's protection for specific purpose, this purpose being fighting. So "heavy armor" refers to protection that is, well, heavy - but still light enough for wearer to effectively fight in it! It does restrict wearer's mobility a bit, but he still needs to be able to move, even run if need be, in it! One possible exception would be specialized jousting armor not designed for actual combat, those could get really heavy... but their purpose was obvious and very limited.

Stereotype tends to overrate how heavy plate armors were while fantasy (especially RPG) tends to overestimate both heaviness and restrictiveness of plate armors and comfyness of leather ones. It's generally an attempt at creating a trade-off system where you can get better protection at the cost of mobility... which isn't really a good representation. The truth was that while better protection generally indeed had a cost... this cost was mostly just money. Good armor was expenisive, very much so. And as for those "rogue class" leather armors? Leather protection could've been lighter but that didn't necessarily translate to all that much more comfortable - they were either very thick or prepared in a way that, in fact, made them very similar to metal armors. "Plate" leather armors included. They were just much cheaper.

 

All that doesn't change the fact that even historically some armors were heavier and more protective but restricted your mobility more. And those would be historical heavy armors. If we draw a comparison to (more or less) modern soldiers, their gear obviously doesn't weight the same regardless of their mission and its location. How often do you think soldiers fight in full gear if the situation doesn't demand it? They have what they need, because every additional kg (or pound, or however you measure weight out there) actually matters. A soldier from a bomb squad approaching a bomb, on the other hand, is AMAZINGLY armored. With his mobility restrained terribly, he really wouldn't be able to fight in that gear...

 

 

*barges in weaving flag of elfynes*

So far there seems to be no major flame-war on this thread, so...fingers crossed

On a different note....I was curious what happens if you give the red-crossing letter to the chantry? Do they reach the same "fault on both sides" conclusion?

Hahahahaha no.

Chantry interprets it as an elf converting to Andrastianism which prompts his brethren to murder his lover - I'm not sure whether it is stated that they did it out of vengeance, out of rage or both. Either way, this unmistakably proves Dalish prejudice and persecution Chantry of the day suffered.

 

I don't remember it in all detail, but that's the gist of what Chantry scholars manage to read out of the story ;) 


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#352
Steelcan

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Hahahahaha no.

Chantry interprets it as an elf converting to Andrastianism which prompts his brethren to murder his lover - I'm not sure whether it is stated that they did it out of vengeance, out of rage or both. Either way, this unmistakably proves Dalish prejudice and persecution Chantry of the day suffered.

 

I don't remember it in all detail, but that's the gist of what Chantry scholars manage to read out of the story ;)

Except they don't say that.......like at all

 

they say that its odd that the Dalish who so value freedom wouldn't give it to one of their own



#353
Eliastion

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Except they don't say that.......like at all

 

they say that its odd that the Dalish who so value freedom wouldn't give it to one of their own

That's what the sister you give it to says in the dialogue. Then you get one of those not-appearing-in-codex notes (or maybe it appears, but I just tried it out of curiosity so I can't really say for sure without loading and re-doing the quest as I only tried it out...) with notes of a chantry scholar.



#354
Steelcan

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That's what the sister you give it to says in the dialogue. Then you get one of those not-appearing-in-codex notes (or maybe it appears, but I just tried it out of curiosity so I can't really say for sure without loading and re-doing the quest as I only tried it out...) with notes of a chantry scholar.

that one also doesn't really play up "we were victims all along" it shows that the Dalish were more hostile than they make themselves out to be and that the war definitely had a religious element, but to me it didn't come off as "those damned elves going around oppressing us"



#355
Eliastion

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that one also doesn't really play up "we were victims all along" it shows that the Dalish were more hostile than they make themselves out to be and that the war definitely had a religious element, but to me it didn't come off as "those damned elves going around oppressing us"

Specially for you, I found a save, sold the info to the chantry and screencapped the notes (there's one more line consisting of the word "invesigate" and a period ending the whole note, so I decided it's not worthy of getting two images or editing it together :P )

5mx029.gif

The transcription of the whole note (in case the image disappears, free hosting sometimes does that) is as follows:

Academic Notes
Notes by a scholar at the University of Orlais
 
The source is a recent donation, recovered from a ruin in Emerald Graves. Sister Andrea vouches for its authenticity.
 
The document outlines elven involvement in the Exalted March of the Dales. Of note is one of the elves - Elandrin - converting to Andrastianism and the hostility this ignited among his peers, as evidenced by the murder of his lover. An illustration of the prejudice and violence to which the Chantry stood in opposition at the time.
 
Could be interesting. Perhaps publishable? Must investigate.

 

Indeed, I misremembered - it wasn't Chantry being oppressed, it was prejudice and violence Chantry stood in opposition to.

And if you say that this note is a valid interpretation of the story*, I'm gonna laugh in your face. Figuratively.

 

*Of course, the story itself might conceivably be made-up, but that's another matter completely ;)



#356
Bad King

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The elves need a leader to unite them all, they are very separate.

 

indoril.jpg


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#357
Red of Rivia

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That was not what I was imagining, but can serve  :P



#358
Colonelkillabee

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indoril.jpg

Nothing in Thedas will ever be as badass as House Indoril of Morrowind, especially not their elves.



#359
MoonDrummer

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Nothing in Thedas will ever be as badass as House Indoril of Morrowind, especially not their elves.

Not even Crookytail?



#360
vertigomez

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Do elves in DAI still have reflective irises? :P

#361
Colonelkillabee

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Not even Crookytail?

Damn. Okay, you got me.

 

Spoiler


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#362
CathyMe

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<snip>
Hahahahaha no.
Chantry interprets it as an elf converting to Andrastianism which prompts his brethren to murder his lover - I'm not sure whether it is stated that they did it out of vengeance, out of rage or both. Either way, this unmistakably proves Dalish prejudice and persecution Chantry of the day suffered.

I don't remember it in all detail, but that's the gist of what Chantry scholars manage to read out of the story ;)

Seriously? I don't know what I was expecting from the church that modifies it's "sacred text" to suit their needs.

#363
Siha

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<snip armor>

 

What exactly are you trying to tell me? Far as I understand it you only repeated what has been said here already or what can be found on that website I quoted. There is no such thing as "heavy armor" in real life, only armor of different quality and for different purposes. "Heavy" does not refer to the weight of the armor itself but, if one desires to use that term, to the level of protection. People here started out with misinterpreting the terminology but it should be settled by now, I think.


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#364
Eliastion

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What exactly are you trying to tell me? Far as I understand it you only repeated what has been said here already or what can be found on that website I quoted. There is no such thing as "heavy armor" in real life, only armor of different quality and for different purposes. "Heavy" does not refer to the weight of the armor itself but, if one desires to use that term, to the level of protection. People here started out with misinterpreting the terminology but it should be settled by now, I think.

And what difference does it make that it's not a historical term? Also, of course it does refer to three aspects: weight of the armor (considering standard materials), freedom of movement it allows and, lastly, protection. You can try and say it only refers to the last one, but you would be simply wrong.

Generally speaking light/heavy armor distinction is a classification operating on principle that you can generally slap more metal on your armor to get better protection at the cost of weight and freedom of movement. And this principle isn't wrong. There are some problematic simplifications, sure: there are other aspects to consider concerning construction of an armor and better protection isn't automatically heavier nor heavier armor automatically better - but this doesn't undermine validity of classification itself as the correlation is indeed there. Sure, plate armors aren't as heavy or restrictive as some people assume and weight and restrictiveness of chainmails is widely underestimated, but still, diferentiating between armors created with freedom of movement as important aspect and those optimized for protection isn't wrong and the latter WILL be heavier and more restrictive than the former given comparable level of technology.

You may frown at the classification as unhistorical, but it makes sense nonetheless, even if irl it would be much less clear-cut than it tends to be in fantasy.

 

Also, you did notice that it's an offtop here, right?



#365
Siha

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<snip>

 

I don't frown upon the historical issue, I simply don't understand your problem. There was a discussion going on here, I happen to know a thing or two about military, I provided a link and was done with it. You keep spamming me long texts without any recognisable intention and I am sorry but I just really don't know what you want from me. So... at ease soldier. As you were.


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#366
Eliastion

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Seriously? I don't know what I was expecting from the church that modifies it's "sacred text" to suit their needs.

The saddest part is that the notes are apparently from University of Orlais, supposedly independent from Chantry to large degree. Though the donation did come from Sister Andrea, so perhaps it just went to wrong hands by default...

Either way - yeah, I don't know what you expected ;)

 

Still, one thing I can't wrap my head around is why Red Crossing is constantly connected with the Exalted March. We have confirmed info that EM was indeed started much later, when the Dalish-Orlesian war was in full effect. I get it that some unverifiable "massacre of a defenseless village" (that most likely was pretty much a skirmish near said village) could be a nice additional pretext for calling Dalish some incarnated evil so that throwing weight of the Chantry behind the war would look better, but still, later historians apparently ignoring the fact that it was a last-ditch defensive measure... I understand historical manipulations, but this one just seems so... unconvincing. An "example" of elves being heathen murderers - sure. A cause for Exalted March? Why would anyone really buy that explanation?...

 

...
Ok, neither one of us wanting to  discuss it any further definitely is a good reason to stop doing it ;) And my post that so confused you, while citing you, wasn't meant to say "everything this guy said is wrong", it was more of a voice in the discussion as a whole, as much expanding on your point as arguing with it ;) 


#367
Elfyoth

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Here is a better explanation about the Qunari are Elves theory: 

 



#368
MisterJB

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The Chantry studied the matter extensively and in an unbiased manner and reached the conclusion that it was all the elves' fault. Shame on them.
Sources tell us they will ask for reparations soon.

#369
Eliastion

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The Chantry studied the matter extensively and in an unbiased manner and reached the conclusion that it was all the elves' fault. Shame on them.
Sources tell us they will ask for reparations soon.

Yeah, it's high time Dalish finally pay this long overdue rent for 700 years of usage of alienages. Seriously, do they think ground in cities is cheap?



#370
Colonelkillabee

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Ok, neither one of us wanting to  discuss it any further definitely is a good reason to stop doing it ;) And my post that so confused you, while citing you, wasn't meant to say "everything this guy said is wrong", it was more of a voice in the discussion as a whole, as much expanding on your point as arguing with it ;)

 

I could be wrong (probably) but I believe the lady is trying to tell you that you said a whole lot of nothing and it didn't do anything for the brief discussion at hand.

 

You can argue over semantics of what is or isn't wrong about saying "heavy armor", but you'd be missing the original point if you did, which is whether it is "heavy" or not, that characteristic is not reserved for the armors that games and fantasy in general claim to be in that category. So the classification, is pointless.

 

And I didn't need paragraphs to tell you that ;) Less is more, dude.



#371
Eliastion

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I could be wrong (probably) but I believe the lady is trying to tell you that you said a whole lot of nothing and it didn't do anything for the brief discussion at hand

 

You can argue over semantics of what is or isn't wrong about saying "heavy armor", but you'd be missing the original point if you did, which is whether it is "heavy" or not, that characteristic is not reserved for the armors that games and fantasy in general claim to be in that category. So the classification, is pointless.

 

And I didn't need paragraphs to tell you that ;) Less is more, dude.

The fact that some armors are misclassified based on some stereotype doesn't make classification pointless.

 

And sorry, I'm not all that experienced with talking on boards where explaining your position beyond 1-2 sentence long summary strains people's attention span enough to be considered "whole lot of nothing".



#372
Heimdall

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The saddest part is that the notes are apparently from University of Orlais, supposedly independent from Chantry to large degree. Though the donation did come from Sister Andrea, so perhaps it just went to wrong hands by default...
Either way - yeah, I don't know what you expected ;)

Still, one thing I can't wrap my head around is why Red Crossing is constantly connected with the Exalted March. We have confirmed info that EM was indeed started much later, when the Dalish-Orlesian war was in full effect. I get it that some unverifiable "massacre of a defenseless village" (that most likely was pretty much a skirmish near said village) could be a nice additional pretext for calling Dalish some incarnated evil so that throwing weight of the Chantry behind the war would look better, but still, later historians apparently ignoring the fact that it was a last-ditch defensive measure... I understand historical manipulations, but this one just seems so... unconvincing. An "example" of elves being heathen murderers - sure. A cause for Exalted March? Why would anyone really buy that explanation?...

As I understand it, the elves that killed the human lover were subsequently mostly killed by the townspeople that witnessed it. This triggered the Dalish invasion of Orlais which eventually led to the Exalted March. For the Chantry, it's pretty much just proof that the Dalish attitude warranted what came after.

#373
Colonelkillabee

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The fact that some armors are misclassified based on some stereotype doesn't make classification pointless.

 

And sorry, I'm not all that experienced with talking on boards where explaining your position beyond 1-2 sentence long summary strains people's attention span enough to be considered "whole lot of nothing".

I said the classification was pointless, not classification was pointless. And it's not some armors, it's just a fundamentally flawed concept in general for the exact reason I won't bother to restate.

 

And whether it's on boards, in person, papers and essays, whatever, any time you drone on and still don't make a point, you're not doing your job well in a debate.



#374
Eliastion

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I said the classification was pointless, not classification was pointless. And it's not some armors, it's just a fundamentally flawed concept in general for the exact reason I won't bother to restate.

 

And whether it's on boards, in person, papers and essays, whatever, any time you drone on and still don't make a point, you're not doing your job well in a debate.

Sorry for not making my point clear enough for you. And no, the concept isn't flawed; particular examples of types of armors that are classified based on traits that wouldn't realistically have don't undermine the concept itself.

 

Either way, I believe I did make my point about three times already, with longer explanation as well as in condensed form, so please excuse me if I don't see much point it dragging this offtop any longer; please don't feel offended that I won't reply to any further posts regarding this matter (no here, at least).



#375
Colonelkillabee

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please don't feel offended that I won't reply to any further posts regarding this matter.

No offense taken, believe me, lol. It should have been done already anyway.