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[Eliastion]

As I understand it, the elves that killed the human lover were subsequently mostly killed by the townspeople that witnessed it. This triggered the Dalish invasion of Orlais which eventually led to the Exalted March. For the Chantry, it's pretty much just proof that the Dalish attitude warranted what came after.

I don't think there is enough ground for this assumption. It seems that the elves didn't have much trouble dealing with the first "wave" of humans. Then they apparently retreated, Eldarin however refused to leave... and they only later recovered his body - it seems that after the first skirmish those elves didn't even really encounter those humans that came next.

You should also note that in his burial they acknowledged the tragedy of his lover's death, their mutual feelings and they even went as far as to call on Maker's name - so it definitely doesn't seem like they were in particularly "Let's go kill them all" mood. From what we know it doesn't seem like the events in Red Crossing could give Dalish motivation for invasion. They COULD be misinterpreted as attack on the settlement and lead to Orlais starting the war (as in actually crossing the border in force) and if RC actually started the war, likely this would be how. Either way, however, we really shouldn't overestimate the importance of this incident, as it was hardly the only one. The true premise of the war is here:

 

Too often had we fought with humans along our borders until the beginning was lost to memory. Rumors of an abduction stirred. As always, their Chantry was swift to spread lies.

 

It definitely seems that border incidents were abundant even before RC, there were also nasty rumors about abductions by elves, then on the other side Dalish explicitly blaming Chantry for perpetuating said rumors... I don't think it's wise to attribute the war to any single event, really. It was a nasty situation that gradually got worse and eventually escalated into open war.

[Elfyoth]

The chantry was agressive towards the elves to begin with, becouse they did not belive in the maker, they were spreading lies, and the Red Crossing was the last straw.

[Aran Linvail]

I like your Elves.

 

You're Lying Morrigan !

[Red of Rivia]

The chantry was agressive towards the elves to begin with, becouse they did not belive in the maker, they were spreading lies, and the Red Crossing was the last straw.

Leliana might change it, I think.

[MisterJB]

Yeah, it's high time Dalish finally pay this long overdue rent for 700 years of usage of alienages. Seriously, do they think ground in cities is cheap?

They are given excellent real estate, the freshest cuisine, caught directly from the street, and walls befitting a castle and all that we ask in return is their continued subjugation and their free will.

Really, they are taking advantage of us.

[In Exile]

I'm hoping maybe we get actual shoulder's in DA4 for elves. I honestly can't play an elf protagonist because of the incredible skinny-ness. It's very frustrating.

[ctd757]

Idon't think Dalish elves hate and pity city elves as much as folks think. It's just all you hear and see of city elvesIs

[Eliastion]

Idon't think Dalish elves hate and pity city elves as much as folks think. It's just all you hear and see of city elvesIs

I think it depends a lot on the clan, with "pity" element being nigh-omnipresent and "hate" very rare.

Dalish, generally speaking, consider themselves better and more fortunate, so they would tend to consider city elves pitiable and be a bit condescending to them. But "hate" seems so extreme - I understand that some elves can consider city elves to be their own prison guards, insulting to elfyness in their willing subjugation to shemlens treating them like trash... but frankly, I think they usually settle for pity and disregard rather than hate  

And most just don't care all that much altogether.

[Elfyoth]

I think it depends a lot on the clan, with "pity" element being nigh-omnipresent and "hate" very rare.

Dalish, generally speaking, consider themselves better and more fortunate, so they would tend to consider city elves pitiable and be a bit condescending to them. But "hate" seems so extreme - I understand that some elves can consider city elves to be their own prison guards, insulting to elfyness in their willing subjugation to shemlens treating them like trash... but frankly, I think they usually settle for pity and disregard rather than hate

And most just don't care all that much altogether.

You are right, Clan Lavellan like City Elves. Its all about the clan. 

[Caddius]

About five years after the incident at Red Crossing, the Dalish went on the offensive with great success. It was only after the elves conquered Montsimmard and were laying siege to Val Royeaux that the Exalted March was declared. It's like if the Pope at Avignon/Rome was besieged by the Lithuanians, after all of France/Holy Roman Empire's armies have been defeated in the field. It's a collective holy-****-this-is-a-crisis-on-so-many-levels scenario, and all of Thedas rushes to defend their head of religion, the capital of one of the most powerful empires, maintain the status quo, and throw down the heathens and the racially 'inferior' elves all in one.

So I think Red Crossing was just the casus belli for the initial conflict. Once the seat of the Chantry was threatened, it was expanded into an Exalted March. It was only when they were facing the full might of a continent that the Dalish lost, and even then, it took ten years. To me, that speaks of the Dales having been a very potent force, which is interesting considering they apparently only had Halamshiral and various small settlements, and their numbers were still lacking.

[Eliastion]

About five years after the incident at Red Crossing, the Dalish went on the offensive with great success. It was only after the elves conquered Montsimmard and were laying siege to Val Royeaux that the Exalted March was declared. It's like if the Pope at Avignon/Rome was besieged by the Lithuanians, after all of France/Holy Roman Empire's armies have been defeated in the field. It's a collective holy-****-this-is-a-crisis-on-so-many-levels scenario, and all of Thedas rushes to defend their head of religion, the capital of one of the most powerful empires, maintain the status quo, and throw down the heathens and the racially 'inferior' elves all in one.

So I think Red Crossing was just the casus belli for the initial conflict. Once the seat of the Chantry was threatened, it was expanded into an Exalted March. It was only when they were facing the full might of a continent that the Dalish lost, and even then, it took ten years. To me, that speaks of the Dales having been a very potent force, which is interesting considering they apparently only had Halamshiral and various small settlements, and their numbers were still lacking.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't five years between RC and Exalted March (more like a year) and Dalish forces were advancing towards Val Royeaux rather than already at the gates, but other than that you're correct.

Though in DA:I we're told that Orlais was supposedly the only country that actually put their forces on the field for Exalted March. It's not unthinkable that Mother Giselle is simply wrong about that, but I prefer thinking about such occurrences more along the lines of "well, technically true, but". The "but" in this case would be that it doesn't really take official involvement of a country to send sizable reinforrcements, I imagine that quite a few Andrastian noble houses actually fielded some soldiers and went on the crusade of their own volition. Combined with remaining Orlesian forces bolstered by new recruits (it's just easier to have people fighting when it's more than "king said we should" but more like "it's a holy war, guys, Elves are coming to destroy our faith").

So while to my knowledge/interpretation it wasn't really "Dales vs the whole continent", neither was it "Dales vs Orlais only" thing mother Giselle tries to sell us. The Dalish could've been driven back by Orlais but it's highly unlikely that they could lose as decisively as they did - the result definitely suggests involvement of additional forces, official or not. You just don't lose two of your major cities to an opponent you're actually able to crush decisively enough to actually gain total control of his territory to extent sufficient to start some large-scale relocation programs...

 

Though I do also believe Dalish had much more strength even after the fall than they are given credit for; my pet theory is that they expected Exalted March to end, people other than bloodied Orlesian military to go home with Orlais/Chantry setting up an occupation of Dales. That's why Dalish didn't scatter immediately, they retreated east, crushed Alamarri opposition in the area and waited for opportunity to go back, incite an uprising and re-capture Dales. Orlais would have much harder time to call for another Exalted March if elves were just trying to re-take the Dales. Orlais (and Chantry) didn't settle for occupation, however - they capitalized on advantage they had at the moment and went out of their way to actually destroy Dalish people - they uprooted the settlements, shipped elves away from the country (and presumably brought in human settlers in their place), all that still under guise of Exalted March, while also handing out gained land to nobles that lent their support (side effect of this process being keeping them and their forces in Dales)... In the end, before the March dissolved enough so that remaining forces could make their move, elves in the Dales themselves were simply too weak to begin an uprising, some likely blaming their rulers and army for all the injustice they suffered from human hands... Successful insurrection was not going to happen and majority of Dalish gave up on it in favor of some ambiguous waiting for better opportunity they kinda perpetuate to this very day.

 

And sorry for walltexting my private theories, I somehow fail to stop myself... Repeatedly.

[Caddius]

 

And sorry for walltexting my private theories, I somehow fail to stop myself... Repeatedly.

Trust me, I know the feeling. 

It looks like I was misled by the timeline.   Four years of border skirmishes between Orlais and the Dales before Red Crossing, then one year before the capture of Montsimmard. I put Red Crossing under the wrong year. 

To reveal my personal prejudices, I put zero stock in anything Giselle says after her, "Well, Corypheus might be sad that the Maker was disappointed in him, so's lying about the Golden City being corrupt and empty. Or he's crazy. I should know, I go there on my summer vacations."   But yeah, largely Orlesian forces with a healthy supplement of Free Marcher nobles, second sons, Antivan mercenaries, and Anders fanatics sounds about right to me.

The tale of the Dalish retreat is an interesting one, but I'm struggling to find more sources. Or is that all headcanon?

It was curious to me that the smith in the Dalish Origin (I think) talked about his father's clashes with the Clayne as they retreated from the Dales. That would imply that some of the Dalish are longer-lived than City Elves, which has always been a very murky area of lore. 

http://dragonage.wik...i/Exalted_MarchActually...Not clear where it's getting its sources, but it's claimed that Val Royeaux was sacked and that only Imperial forces were deployed. 

[Eliastion]

(...)

 

Well, my main source for my retreat theory is this tale about smith's "father" - the tale that is an interesting one but REALLY needs "father" dropped in favor of some significantly more distant ancestor as it's repeatedly confirmed canon that Dalish don't live for hundred of years - Zathrian was kept alive by blood magic binding him to Lady of the Forest, had around three hundred years (less than half of what passed since the fall of the Dales) and was considered ancient by Dalish standards (they thought he somehow "rediscovered" supposed elven immortality).

 

As for Wiki sources, we know that Val Royeaux has been captured by the elves, it was first mentioned by WoG and then confirmed by an item description in DA:I 

http://dragonage.wik...of_Red_Crossing

The thing about only Orlais committing their forces most likely is based solely on what Mother Giselle potentially says to the Dalish Inquisitor at one point (but I really don't recall when exactly). I don't know if non-Dalish can hear that.

[TK514]

World of Thedas is the first instance where we learn that the Exalted March was just Orlais, so it isn't an invention of DA:I.

[ctd757]

Hey guys what are the three trees?

[Eliastion]

World of Thedas is the first instance where we learn that the Exalted March was just Orlais, so it isn't an invention of DA:I.

Can you point me to a page where it's written? I like to check up on the sources when possible and this one is strongly related to my theories  

[BronzTrooper]

Hey guys what are the three trees?

 

You mean the Vir Tanadhal?

 

Well, it's basically this:

 

Spoiler

Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow: fly straight and do not waver.

Vir Bor'assan, the Way of the Bow: bend but never break.

Vir Adahlen, the Way of the Forest: together we are stronger than the one.

[Eliastion]

You mean the Vir Tanadhal?

 

Well, it's basically this:

 

Spoiler

Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow: fly straight and do not waver.

Vir Bor'assan, the Way of the Bow: bend but never break.

Vir Adahlen, the Way of the Forest: together we are stronger than the one.

Well, they are more complicated than that, really. The first is about mercy as much as certainty - to some extent it's a remainder that death you deal should be quick (yeah, if some Dalish ideed play "Fen'Harel's Teeth", they should be smacked hard as that's a clear violation of the creed that apparently is supposed to be quite important for most elves).

The second part is pretty straightforward, it's about being flexible and adjusting to situation.

The third, again, is more than just keeping together, it's much broader, touches on the general subject of being part of the world and appreciating the fact.

http://dragonage.wik...ess_of_the_Hunt

[Insaner Robot]

Page thirteen of World of Thedas.History of the exalted marches.

 

Exalted march of the dales, final sentence of the first paragraph:

'Orlais was the only nation to provide troops.'

[Eliastion]

Page thirteen of World of Thedas.History of the exalted marches.

 

Exalted march of the dales, final sentence of the first paragraph:

'Orlais was the only nation to provide troops.'

Thanks, I was wandering whether there was something more there, like a clear contradiction of any considerable foreign involvement even on non-national level. Fortunately, nothing like that

(Fortunately because I would find it REALLY hard to believe in their complete victory without assuming SOME outside help Not after how the beginning of the war went).

[MisterJB]

This is going to sound like I'm trolling but, honestly, if anything I am reminiscing.

I heard this during my game today:

Human: “There’s a rumor that Corypheus is in league with elven forces.”
Dwarf: “Which would those be? The mighty standing army of that land they don’t have?”

 

And I was left wishing I had had this when we were arguing if the elves could retake the Dales.

[Insaner Robot]

Perhaps it was simply a consolidation of orlesian troops and then simply being joined by templars stationed in orlais. We know that tevinter mages were completely unprepared for real templars in a war table mission.

I can't imagine dalish mages would have been able to fair any better, against a horde of troops with the ability to deny magic.

[BronzTrooper]

This is going to sound like I'm trolling but, honestly, if anything I am reminiscing.

I heard this during my game today:

Human: “There’s a rumor that Corypheus is in league with elven forces.”
Dwarf: “Which would those be? The mighty standing army of that land they don’t have?”

 

And I was left wishing I had had this when we were arguing if the elves could retake the Dales.

 

Honestly, I wish I could punch that human in the face for being such a moron.

[ctd757]

Honestly, I wish I could punch that human in the face for being such a moron.

Don't we all wish we could punch a human.

[BronzTrooper]

Don't we all wish we could punch a human.

 

There's a lot of humans I want to punch in DA.  All of which are NPCs.