1602 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

I kind of want to know how Orlais managed to conquer elven cities and fortresses when they had death rays, as we see in the Exalted Plains. Or failing that, why no one bothered to find out how the elves made them so they could use them themselves afterwords. 

[BronzTrooper]

I kind of want to know how Orlais managed to conquer elven cities and fortresses when they had death rays, as we see in the Exalted Plains. Or failing that, why no one bothered to find out how the elves made them so they could use them themselves afterwords. 

 

Because Orlais is weird like that.

[Caddius]

I kind of want to know how Orlais managed to conquer elven cities and fortresses when they had death rays, as we see in the Exalted Plains. Or failing that, why no one bothered to find out how the elves made them so they could use them themselves afterwords. 

Exciting answer: Bards snuck into the fortresses on daring operations to disable the laser defense system.

Boring answer: Siege warfare. Starving them out rather than charging the walls like lunatics. And the Dalish probably didn't have too many of those lasers.

The Dales' technological and magical ability is rather astonishing, though, isn't it? They did a number on the Orlesian Empire.

[Steelcan]

Exciting answer: Bards snuck into the fortresses on daring operations to disable the laser defense system.

Boring answer: Siege warfare. Starving them out rather than charging the walls like lunatics. And the Dalish probably didn't have too many of those lasers.

The Dales' technological and magical ability is rather astonishing, though, isn't it? They did a number on the Orlesian Empire.

Surprise attacks tend to do that, its unlikely they had a really large technological or magical advantage if they had one at all, seeing as they didn't just lose, they got curb-stomped then drawn and quartered

[Sifr]

I kind of want to know how Orlais managed to conquer elven cities and fortresses when they had death rays, as we see in the Exalted Plains. Or failing that, why no one bothered to find out how the elves made them so they could use them themselves afterwords. 

 

Wasn't it suggested that the Citadelle was an ancient Elven structure, so the Dalish probably didn't know how the weapon worked either?

[BronzTrooper]

Surprise attacks tend to do that, its unlikely they had a really large technological or magical advantage if they had one at all, seeing as they didn't just lose, they got curb-stomped then drawn and quartered

 

Germany and Japan were much more advanced technologically than the Allied nations, yet they still got curbstomped.  Why?  Simple: they were unable to match the Allies' numbers.  Had Germany not turned on Russia, we'd be speaking German now.

 

Same rule applies to the Exalted March on the Dales.  The elves were severely outnumbered, even if they had access to magics such as that found in the old elven fortress in the Exalted Plains.  If you have enough troops, you can take on even the most advanced armies.

[Caddius]

Surprise attacks tend to do that, its unlikely they had a really large technological or magical advantage if they had one at all, seeing as they didn't just lose, they got curb-stomped then drawn and quartered

An eleven year war that includes both sides losing crucial cities and having their capitals damaged doesn't count as a Curb-Stomp Battle by any definition I'm aware of. They lost everything because Orlais and the Chantry wanted to dismantle their civilization, not because they performed badly in war. From the looks of it, the Dales were pretty but not an easy place to build an empire in. Halamshiral seems to have been their only city. Compare that to Orlais's size and population. Not to say that Orlais's victory was through sheer numbers alone, but the Dalish seizing Montsimmard and their victories in the early years were hardly a surprise attack. Are you referring to Red Crossing?

[Caddius]

Ugh, double-post.

[Red of Rivia]

Germany and Japan were much more advanced technologically than the Allied nations, yet they still got curbstomped.  Why?  Simple: they were unable to match the Allies' numbers.  Had Germany not turned on Russia, we'd be speaking German now.

 

Same rule applies to the Exalted March on the Dales.  The elves were severely outnumbered, even if they had access to magics such as that found in the old elven fortress in the Exalted Plains.  If you have enough troops, you can take on even the most advanced armies.

Well, I'm from Volgograd and I can tell you this: We have to rely not only on the numbers, also with the harsh winter that the Germans suffered(and the destruction of villages and camps by the Soviets themselves). Stalin had already begun to enslave the population, so he had an industrialized country and ready to die in the war, in the end he took the technology from German to himself.

 

I think the elves had already regressed what they had achieved in terms of magic and etc, so there was no chance of victory against a Exalted March.

[Eliastion]

Perhaps it was simply a consolidation of orlesian troops and then simply being joined by templars stationed in orlais. We know that tevinter mages were completely unprepared for real templars in a war table mission.
I can't imagine dalish mages would have been able to fair any better, against a horde of troops with the ability to deny magic.

This I could buy if not for the fact that Dalish actually managed to capture Val Royeaux - if consolidation of troops and (especially) involvement of Templars (even assuming the latter didn't fight from the very beginning which I find doubtful as Chantry and Orlais were apparently strongly intertwined) was all Orlais needed to win, their capital and seat of Chantry wouldn't have fallen.
Also, it would be simply very strange it Chantry declaring Exalted March wouldn't draw in any foreign forces. Nations could ignore the plea not wanting to get involved too much, but all those andrastian nobles who can (depending on level of cynicism) do Maker's work or secure some spoils of war to improve your/your family's standing?

Surprise attacks tend to do that, its unlikely they had a really large technological or magical advantage if they had one at all, seeing as they didn't just lose, they got curb-stomped then drawn and quartered

Dalish are more amazing than I thought if they managed to pull off a surprise attack after five years of border skirmishes and a year of open war. That's something. That, or Orlesians are really bad at noticing things.
Ok, but more seriously - we don't know who was really the first one to move in with their army, it definitely could've been Dalish, but seeing as there were so many nasty rumors about elves AND border skirmishes dating to five years prior, claiming this to be a surprise attack really doesn't make much sense. And if it for some miracle was (I guess it would require Orlesians to be unaware that Dales do have an actual army, or something along those lines...), a year seems more than enough to pull your sh*t together.

[Caddius]

This I could buy if not for the fact that Dalish actually managed to capture Val Royeaux - if consolidation of troops and (especially) involvement of Templars (even assuming the latter didn't fight from the very beginning which I find doubtful as Chantry and Orlais were apparently strongly intertwined) was all Orlais needed to win, their capital and seat of Chantry wouldn't have fallen.
Also, it would be simply very strange it Chantry declaring Exalted March wouldn't draw in any foreign forces. Nations could ignore the plea not wanting to get involved too much, but all those andrastian nobles who can (depending on level of cynicism) do Maker's work or secure some spoils of war to improve your/your family's standing?

Dalish are more amazing than I thought if they managed to pull off a surprise attack after five years of border skirmishes and a year of open war. That's something. That, or Orlesians are really bad at noticing things.
 

Orlais is a lucky country in many ways. Fertile land, centralized government, center of White Andrastianism, and it only has to worry about its eastern and northern borders. To the south and west there's mountains and unpopulated wasteland, devoid of rambunctious Avvar or Chasind. Even if we ignore the years of border skirmishes leading up to Red Crossing and full-on war, Orlais's armies would be garrisoned at the border with the parts of the Free Marches not under their control, and especially at the border with the elvish  kingdom of the Dales, that is also close to the rival kingdom of Ferelden.    Assuming they had an army remotely like the one they have nowadays, which seems likely enough to me, seeing as this was when Orlais was only starting to decline from the glories of Drakon's rise to power.

So yeah, they knew the Dalish were advancing on them within that first year. And Montsimmard was captured, and Val Royeaux was...well, I'm still not clear on that.  I've seen 'at their doorstep', and the 'liberation of Val Royeaux', which is ambiguous as to whether it was an Orlesian army lifting the siege or ending an occupation. I almost hope it was an occupation, and all the human kingdoms are too embarrassed to put it in Codex entries about Val Royeaux. 

[Eliastion]

(...)

"Liberation" as a word doesn't really seem fitting for lifting a siege. Also, I'm pretty sure we have WoG on the matter.
Oh. And looking for reference to WoG I found this:
http://dragonage.wik..._of_the_Emperor
This one is completely unambiguous.

Although as for Ferelden, there wasn't really a thing like that, those were barbarian lands with some warlord or another trying to name himself a king once in a while - but even if someone was initially successful, I don't think it ever really lasted long enough to really have some "kingdom of Ferelden" to speak of. It was not until Calehand that a more-or-less coherent nation was finally established.

EDIT:
An interesting thing about this shield - apparently Val Royeauxfell fell in 9:14. It took 4 years after Montsimmard, elves apparently were winning a prolonged war there... I'm more convinced than ever that it took outside involvement to drive them back so hard

[Caddius]

"Liberation" as a word doesn't really seem fitting for lifting a siege. Also, I'm pretty sure we have WoG on the matter.
Oh. And looking for reference to WoG I found this:
http://dragonage.wik..._of_the_Emperor
This one is completely unambiguous.

Although as for Ferelden, there wasn't really a thing like that, those were barbarian lands with some warlord or another trying to name himself a king once in a while - but even if someone was initially successful, I don't think it ever really lasted long enough to really have some "kingdom of Ferelden" to speak of. It was not until Calehand that a more-or-less coherent nation was finally established.

There we go! Thanks for finding that. 

Go, elves!   

I wouldn't quite say that the Alamarri were 'barbarians', per se. I see the Glory Age and Hafter as when they were first starting to get into their Anglo-Saxon quarreling kingdom groove before their unification by the House of Wessex Theirin. I guess that depends on how 'barbaric' we consider the Anglo-Saxons to have been.

But I done goofed by putting Ferelden in.  Still, the point stands. Crazy elves and quarreling Alamarri warlords would deserve some garrison love and tender care.

[Elfyoth]

I wanted to punch that Dalish elf in DA:O... the whiny one who wanted to get it on with the other Dalish. He wasn't a hunter so she wouldn't bond with him. That guy.... yeah that guy. 

 

 

*Cries* Isn't love better?! (Joking)

[Elfyoth]

Eliaston the more I think of the Elven gods the more I agree with your theory that they are mortals. 

[Eliastion]

Well, my definition of "mortal" for purposes of Dragon Age is pretty wide, though

On a side note - I don't think the expanded thread name is a good idea, "We are The Last Of The Elvhen Never again Shall We Submit" is a Dalish creed and we shouldn't discriminate against city elves, they get enough of it in-world

[BronzTrooper]

It's also a beacon for trolls.  Better to go back to the original name.

[Drasanil]

It's also a beacon for trolls.  Better to go back to the original name.

 

Haha, that was my very first reaction when I saw it; who put up the troll-signal?

[LOLandStuff]

Haha, that was my very first reaction when I saw it; who put up the troll-signal?

 

I get the impression they want to be trolled just so they could feel persecuted. How else would people know this thread is about elves?

[In Exile]

Well, my main source for my retreat theory is this tale about smith's "father" - the tale that is an interesting one but REALLY needs "father" dropped in favor of some significantly more distant ancestor as it's repeatedly confirmed canon that Dalish don't live for hundred of years - Zathrian was kept alive by blood magic binding him to Lady of the Forest, had around three hundred years (less than half of what passed since the fall of the Dales) and was considered ancient by Dalish standards (they thought he somehow "rediscovered" supposed elven immortality).

As for Wiki sources, we know that Val Royeaux has been captured by the elves, it was first mentioned by WoG and then confirmed by an item description in DA:I
http://dragonage.wik...of_Red_Crossing
The thing about only Orlais committing their forces most likely is based solely on what Mother Giselle potentially says to the Dalish Inquisitor at one point (but I really don't recall when exactly). I don't know if non-Dalish can hear that.

The only Orlais point comes from (I recall) the World of Thedas book (Vol. 1). The notable difference is the Chantry had (1) mages and (2) Templars. The Dalish may have had free mages helping the war effort. That gives them a radical strategic advantage compared to the usual Orlesian melee forces. An Exalted March presumably brought the forces of the Circle and Templar order on their side.

[Drasanil]

I get the impression they want to be trolled just so they could feel persecuted. How else would people know this thread is about elves?

 

 

[In Exile]

This I could buy if not for the fact that Dalish actually managed to capture Val Royeaux - if consolidation of troops and (especially) involvement of Templars (even assuming the latter didn't fight from the very beginning which I find doubtful as Chantry and Orlais were apparently strongly intertwined) was all Orlais needed to win, their capital and seat of Chantry wouldn't have fallen.
Also, it would be simply very strange it Chantry declaring Exalted March wouldn't draw in any foreign forces. Nations could ignore the plea not wanting to get involved too much, but all those andrastian nobles who can (depending on level of cynicism) do Maker's work or secure some spoils of war to improve your/your family's standing?

Dalish are more amazing than I thought if they managed to pull off a surprise attack after five years of border skirmishes and a year of open war. That's something. That, or Orlesians are really bad at noticing things.
Ok, but more seriously - we don't know who was really the first one to move in with their army, it definitely could've been Dalish, but seeing as there were so many nasty rumors about elves AND border skirmishes dating to five years prior, claiming this to be a surprise attack really doesn't make much sense. And if it for some miracle was (I guess it would require Orlesians to be unaware that Dales do have an actual army, or something along those lines...), a year seems more than enough to pull your sh*t together.

Orlais had to be clearly unprepared for war for the Dales to make the inroads that they did and then subsequently get defeated by Orlais alone.

I think the only sensible explanation is that - after Red Crossing - the Dales "struck first" as part of a very aggressive defensive strategy. The fear being that Orlais would slowly assimilate their culture and undermine their beliefs, which they've already seen happen with one member of the Emerald Knights. That - in the context of a great deal of historical hostilities - might have led the Dales to think that their only option was to force the issue when they were still strong and on their own terms. A lamentably real politik decision that back fired is, I think, thematically consistent with the story of the elves we've had thus far.

As to the war itself I think the logic has to be that it was all about mages. The Dales having free mages could have dominated the early parts of the war until the Chantry became involved. With the templars joining the war to neutralise the mages and the Circle to fight against the conventional Dales troops Orlais could turn the tide.

[Eliastion]

(...)
As to the war itself I think the logic has to be that it was all about mages. The Dales having free mages could have dominated the early parts of the war until the Chantry became involved. With the templars joining the war to neutralise the mages and the Circle to fight against the conventional Dales troops Orlais could turn the tide.

Not long ago my main counterargument here would be that Templars would most definitely take part in the war even before Exalted March. Then I got some extra timeline information - Val Royeaux apparently fell four years after Exalted March was declared, so even if Templars were to somehow avoid taking part in the war before Montsimmard, their involvement apparently wasn't enough to stop elven offensive.

[Caddius]

Not long ago my main counterargument here would be that Templars would most definitely take part in the war even before Exalted March. Then I got some extra timeline information - Val Royeaux apparently fell four years after Exalted March was declared, so even if Templars were to somehow avoid taking part in the war before Montsimmard, their involvement apparently wasn't enough to stop elven offensive.

I'm thinking access to old elven magic, unrestricted use of mages, and a good military led to the early victories. As the war went on, however, the Dalish ran out of mages and manpower, and simply couldn't do it anymore.