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Elven Support Thread- No Jaws Of Hakkon Spoilers please! :D


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#426
Steelcan

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Germany and Japan were much more advanced technologically than the Allied nations, yet they still got curbstomped.  Why?  Simple: they were unable to match the Allies' numbers.  Had Germany not turned on Russia, we'd be speaking German now.

 

Same rule applies to the Exalted March on the Dales.  The elves were severely outnumbered, even if they had access to magics such as that found in the old elven fortress in the Exalted Plains.  If you have enough troops, you can take on even the most advanced armies.

 

That's just simply not true, who got the A-bomb first?  Also, Germany was never going to be able to beat Russia or Germany, not because of numbers, though they certainly helped, but industrial capacity.

 

This is just pure speculation, we have no details regarding the capabilities of either army. we only have the bare outline of the conflict which the elves lost, completely.



#427
Steelcan

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:huh:

An eleven year war that includes both sides losing crucial cities and having their capitals damaged doesn't count as a Curb-Stomp Battle by any definition I'm aware of. They lost everything because Orlais and the Chantry wanted to dismantle their civilization, not because they performed badly in war. From the looks of it, the Dales were pretty but not an easy place to build an empire in. Halamshiral seems to have been their only city. Compare that to Orlais's size and population. Not to say that Orlais's victory was through sheer numbers alone, but the Dalish seizing Montsimmard and their victories in the early years were hardly a surprise attack. Are you referring to Red Crossing?

Remind me what happened to the Dales, were they able to rise again after the dust had settled?  Was Orlais permanently crippled as a result of the war?

 

And gonna need a source on what I underlined, because to my knowledge that is just speculation, the immediate aftermath of Red Crossing would have been a surprise attack, and once that's been going on its incredibly hard to reverse the situation.  The complete inability of the elves to exploit their victories leads me to believe that the either had no idea what they were doing in the war, or they had no hope of victory in a prolonged war



#428
BronzTrooper

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That's just simply not true, who got the A-bomb first?  Also, Germany was never going to be able to beat Russia or Germany, not because of numbers, though they certainly helped, but industrial capacity.

 

This is just pure speculation, we have no details regarding the capabilities of either army. we only have the bare outline of the conflict which the elves lost, completely.

 

The A-Bomb was only used on the Japanese, and then, only when they had gotten pushed back to mainland Japan.  Germany was still overrun by the Allies' superior numbers, as was Japan.

 

After pushing so far into Orlais that Val Royueax itself was under threat, which was when the Exalted March was called on the Dales, giving Orlais a massive influx of troops.  Had no Exalted March been called, it's very likely that the Dales would've conquered Orlais.


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#429
Steelcan

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The A-Bomb was only used on the Japanese, and then, only when they had gotten pushed back to mainland Japan.  Germany was still overrun by the Allies' superior numbers, as was Japan.

 

After pushing so far into Orlais that Val Royueax itself was under threat, which was when the Exalted March was called on the Dales, giving Orlais a massive influx of troops.  Had no Exalted March been called, it's very likely that the Dales would've conquered Orlais.

and that's not true, ever since the entry of America and the Soviet Union into the war the Allies had the scientific advantage.  The Germans could claim to have invented a horribly inefficient synthetic oil (their invention of the jet engine is actually a second place ribbon as the British got it first), America made advances such as the development of nuclear power, pressurized cabins, penicillin and numerous others.

 

The idea that the German Army vs the Red Army was a classic "quantity vs quality" situation is mostly bunk.  Red Army infantry were no better or worse than German equivalents in 1944-5, their armor was also of comparable quality, and the Red Army air force was actually superior.

 

Only Orlais contributed troops to the Exalted March, a Codex entry spells that out, as well as Mother Giselle



#430
MisterJB

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It's also possible Orlais feared Tevinter taking advantage if they relocated the majority of their troops to the South and underestimated the elves. Once they realized their mistake, they focused their whole strength on them.



#431
Rekkampum

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It's also a beacon for trolls.  Better to go back to the original name.

 

Banal nadas.



#432
BronzTrooper

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and that's not true, ever since the entry of America and the Soviet Union into the war the Allies had the scientific advantage.  The Germans could claim to have invented a horribly inefficient synthetic oil (their invention of the jet engine is actually a second place ribbon as the British got it first), America made advances such as the development of nuclear power, pressurized cabins, penicillin and numerous others.

 

The idea that the German Army vs the Red Army was a classic "quantity vs quality" situation is mostly bunk.  Red Army infantry were no better or worse than German equivalents in 1944-5, their armor was also of comparable quality, and the Red Army air force was actually superior.

 

Only Orlais contributed troops to the Exalted March, a Codex entry spells that out, as well as Mother Giselle

 

The US went into Europe with the M2 Stuart and M3 Lee as the bulk of their tank force.  Their air force was populated with planes such as the P-40 Warhawk.  Germany's tank and air forces were technologically superior to the America's as of 1941.  Even when the US developed the M4 Sherman, their tank forces were still technologically outmatched.  Also, the USSR was allied with Germany at the start of WWII, and they were still outmatched technologically by Germany.  Not to mention that the US was giving thousands of P-39s to the USSR for much of WWII.  Pretty much all of the advances you listed were developed in the later years of WWII, when both Germany and Japan had already been pushed back by the numbers of the Allied troops.

 

As for the Exalted March, either way, Orlais had been pushed back to Val Royeaux before it was called.  And like MisterJB said, the majority of Orlais' forced could've been pointed at Tevinter.



#433
Steelcan

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The US went into Europe with the M2 Stuart and M3 Lee as the bulk of their tank force.  Their air force was populated with planes such as the P-40 Warhawk.  Germany's tank and air forces were technologically superior to the America's as of 1941.  Even when the US developed the M4 Sherman, their tank forces were still technologically outmatched.  Also, the USSR was allied with Germany at the start of WWII, and they were still outmatched technologically by Germany.  Not to mention that the US was giving thousands of P-39s to the USSR for much of WWII.  Pretty much all of the advances you listed were developed in the later years of WWII, when both Germany and Japan had already been pushed back by the numbers of the Allied troops.

 

As for the Exalted March, either way, Orlais had been pushed back to Val Royeaux before it was called.  And like MisterJB said, the majority of Orlais' forced could've been pointed at Tevinter.

Numbers don't make you more advanced scientifically having more and better scientists does, nor were German tanks more advanced, having more and heavier armor doesn't make them anything particularly advanced.  I can point to institutes like the American bombing computers, the British Radar systems, the Ultra machine, even down to rifles the allies had the advantage, the M1 Garand far outstripped anyother semi-auto rifle in ability.  Nor were the Soviets and Nazis allied, there was a non-aggression pact, not a formal alliance.  You really don't seem to understand what is really a rather simple idea, the Al.

 

Perhaps, but Orlais was still the only nation that contributed troops to the Exalted March against the Dales



#434
BronzTrooper

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Numbers don't make you more advanced scientifically having more and better scientists does, nor were German tanks more advanced, having more and heavier armor doesn't make them anything particularly advanced.  I can point to institutes like the American bombing computers, the British Radar systems, the Ultra machine, even down to rifles the allies had the advantage, the M1 Garand far outstripped anyother semi-auto rifle in ability.  Nor were the Soviets and Nazis allied, there was a non-aggression pact, not a formal alliance.  You really don't seem to understand what is really a rather simple idea, the Al.

 

Perhaps, but Orlais was still the only nation that contributed troops to the Exalted March against the Dales

 

German Panzer IVs were faster and better armored than the average Allied medium tank, not to mention that their aiming systems were superior to the aiming systems on Allied tanks.  Yes, better armor doesn't equate to technological superiority, but the superior speed and aiming do.  Plus, the American bombing computers weren't actual 'computers', but sophisticated aiming systems.  Not to mention that the German-made Sturmgewehr was the world's first assault rifle, and the German infantry had access to the MP-40 and MG-42, both of which were very effective weapons.  Germany also had access to V2 rockets and their U-boats, not to mention that their battleships were superior to those the UK and US had.

 

Anyway, this is getting way off-topic.  I'm gonna stop talking about this no to avoid derailing the thread further.



#435
In Exile

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Not long ago my main counterargument here would be that Templars would most definitely take part in the war even before Exalted March. Then I got some extra timeline information - Val Royeaux apparently fell four years after Exalted March was declared, so even if Templars were to somehow avoid taking part in the war before Montsimmard, their involvement apparently wasn't enough to stop elven offensive.

 

That's very strange. What is the timeline of the war exactly? I thought it was Red Crossing - Dales make inroads into Oralis - Exalted March - Orlesian Counteroffensive - Orlais pushes (slowly) all the way to Haramshiral, which it sacks - Fall of the Dales. 



#436
Heimdall

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That's very strange. What is the timeline of the war exactly? I thought it was Red Crossing - Dales make inroads into Oralis - Exalted March - Orlesian Counteroffensive - Orlais pushes (slowly) all the way to Haramshiral, which it sacks - Fall of the Dales. 

That was my impression as well.

 

I seem to recall rather distinctly that the Exalted March was called as a result of Dalish forces being close enough to threaten Val Royeaux, and with it the heart of the Chantry.



#437
Eliastion

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That's very strange. What is the timeline of the war exactly? I thought it was Red Crossing - Dales make inroads into Oralis - Exalted March - Orlesian Counteroffensive - Orlais pushes (slowly) all the way to Haramshiral, which it sacks - Fall of the Dales.

The timeline is supposedly:
2:5 - Increase in hostility on the border
2:9 - Accepted date for Red Crossing incident

2:10 - Montsimmard captured and Exalted March started

2:14 - Elves capture Val Royeaux
<?> - Humans re-capture Val Royeaux and push the elves back
2:20 - Humans captre Halamshiral, war ends with human victory
 

(...)
Perhaps, but Orlais was still the only nation that contributed troops to the Exalted March against the Dales

My argument on the matter isn't that some nation added them - but that the people did. In fact most military isn't national forces but nobles with their private armies, also at that point western Thedas was already andrastian, including Tevinter (it was before the schism, though tensions were already there, obviously). In my headcanon I include influx of non-Orlesian troops (not official troops of any nation, though) for two major reason:
1. It explains why the tide of war changed so completely - alternative explanations could perhaps work (especially when we remind ourself that fantasy writers aren't necessarily authorities on military strategy ;) ) but this one just works well without additional effort
2. It's just only natural that there was this influx. If I were to believe that no reinforcements arrive, I would need to find some reason why - and that's quite hard, frankly. Acceptance of Chantry's autority was relatively widespread and the enemy was quite obviously "an enemy of faith", the Exalted March sounded much more convincing than the later one to liberate Starkhaven (that one in fact hardly makes any sense seeing as the occupying force was Tevinter, at that point an andrastian country too...). Oh, and there was land to conquer, so it seems like a good opportunity to benefit from the war, especially if you were some young noble with little in the "inherited fortune" department.

Basically, I'm faced by a choice:

a: I can assume that "only Orlais contributed troops" refers only to official involvement on national level, perhaps with any unofficial help played down even further in mostly orlesian-written history (and Orlais definitely wouldn't want to put too much emphasis on the fact that they needed any outside help to win the war)

or

b: I can accept some not-really-that-convincing explanation for how Orlais managed to crush Dales to this degree, while also looking for some separate explanation as to why Exalted March against pagans threatening the very seat of the Chantry remained unheeded by Andrastian people outside Orlais.


Option a) seems just simpler, cleaner and easier - much less mental gymnastics is required to have everything fall into place  ;)


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#438
Caddius

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Remind me what happened to the Dales, were they able to rise again after the dust had settled?  Was Orlais permanently crippled as a result of the war?

 

And gonna need a source on what I underlined, because to my knowledge that is just speculation, the immediate aftermath of Red Crossing would have been a surprise attack, and once that's been going on its incredibly hard to reverse the situation.  The complete inability of the elves to exploit their victories leads me to believe that the either had no idea what they were doing in the war, or they had no hope of victory in a prolonged war

I'm afraid I don't see your point. The Dales were subjected to ethnic cleansing and their remaining armies scattered to the four corners after losing a long and bitter war. They lost the war, true, but it was the 'peace' that doomed them. 

There had been border tensions and skirmishes for years, and Red Crossing was a village. It's not like the Dales' armies were riding on motorized vehicles into Poland. Orlais would have already had troops in the area, and had been pushing for war with the Dales for years.

For the bolded part, again, they sacked Val Royeaux, they sacked Montsimmard, they pushed their way into the Orlesian heartland. They sure were exploiting something. It's strange to suggest they had no idea what they were doing. I think they had a shot at victory, but it they were always the underdog just due to the political isolation of the Dales and their presumably low population. (Despite the rabbit slurs, humans seem a lot more fecund than elves in DA.)

What's frustrating about this debate is how little information we have. :(

I'm still largely buying into the 'influx of Templars and Marching Andrastians turned the tide for Orlais', as Ellastion said, I just don't see the other Andrastian nations not responding to Val Royeaux being sacked by elves, even if it is Orlais being humiliated.


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#439
TK514

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If I'm remembering the timeline correctly, it's pretty easy to understand why no one else sent troops to aid Orlais, and why Orlais fared poorly in the initial stages of the War.

 

It was only 15-20 years after the end of the Second Blight, which lasted almost a century, and everyone not in the Dales was still recovering.  At this point, the Chantry was still relatively young, just over a century old, and I believe was still fairly localized in Orlesian, and formerly Orlesian, territories.  I don't think it had yet become the continent spanning juggernaut we know in modern Thedas.


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#440
Eliastion

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(...)
It was only 15-20 years after the end of the Second Blight, which lasted almost a century, and everyone not in the Dales was still recovering.  (...)

 You assume, against all probability, that Dales did not suffer from the Blight despite confirmed darkspawn activity both in Orlais and in what now is Ferelden. They definitely didn't have it as bad as some, but it's obvious they must've got hit too.
 

At this point, the Chantry was still relatively young, just over a century old, and I believe was still fairly localized in Orlesian, and formerly Orlesian, territories.  I don't think it had yet become the continent spanning juggernaut we know in modern Thedas.

Well, I didn't double check all the information from timeline in Wiki, but it seems that Chantry teachings managed to spread to Tevinter (it was pre-schism), Anderfels (not without help of Grey Wardens who converted after being helped by Drakon), Free Marches (including Nevarra) and Antiva (even though Orlais itself never reached that far east). Chantry was anything but localized.

#441
Caddius

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 You assume, against all probability, that Dales did not suffer from the Blight despite confirmed darkspawn activity both in Orlais and in what now is Ferelden. They definitely didn't have it as bad as some, but it's obvious they must've got hit too.
 
Well, I didn't double check all the information from timeline in Wiki, but it seems that Chantry teachings managed to spread to Tevinter (it was pre-schism), Anderfels (not without help of Grey Wardens who converted after being helped by Drakon), Free Marches (including Nevarra) and Antiva (even though Orlais itself never reached that far east). Chantry was anything but localized.

The Dalish armies are specifically noted to have ignored the darkspawn attacking Montsimmard, which was one of the causes of the border skirmishes, I'd imagine. Settling old debts. I doubt the darkspawn would be operating near Montsimmard and messing with the Alamarri without also attacking the Dales, even if it wasn't the main thrust of Zazikel's Blight.

The wiki specifically says that in the last sixty years before the Exalted March, the Chantry spread rapidly throughout Thedas, facilitated, of all people, the Grey Wardens, out of gratitude for Emperor Drakon coming to their aid. It's unclear if they were sufficiently intertwined with the governments, however. For me, this does go a ways to explain why all of Thedas didn't send massive armies. The religion was still sinking in as an organized force. I'd imagine that the hardline Andrastians in these newly evangelized nations would have sent forces, explaining the turn, and a religious victory like this over the Dales would likely have helped cement the Chantry's authority.



#442
TK514

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 You assume, against all probability, that Dales did not suffer from the Blight despite confirmed darkspawn activity both in Orlais and in what now is Ferelden. They definitely didn't have it as bad as some, but it's obvious they must've got hit too.
 
Well, I didn't double check all the information from timeline in Wiki, but it seems that Chantry teachings managed to spread to Tevinter (it was pre-schism), Anderfels (not without help of Grey Wardens who converted after being helped by Drakon), Free Marches (including Nevarra) and Antiva (even though Orlais itself never reached that far east). Chantry was anything but localized.

 

Oh, I'm sure some Darkspawn made it into the Dales, but no account, from either side, ever discusses the Dales as being hit, much less suffering like the Anderfels - Orlais - Free Marches corridor.

 

Three out of five being Orlesian, or formerly Orlesian, seems to fit my criteria pretty well, and the Chantry in Tevinter was never much of a supporter of the Orlesian Chantry (which it pre-dated, and had significant doctrinal differences with).  The Orlesian Chantry was just over a century old, total, and roughly half that in the most recent converts, like Antiva.  With the entire western Thedas recovering from the Second Blight, and the relative youth of the Chantry, it just didn't have the power to enforce the first Exalted March since Andraste.



#443
Elfyoth

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Oh, I'm sure some Darkspawn made it into the Dales, but no account, from either side, ever discusses the Dales as being hit, much less suffering like the Anderfels - Orlais - Free Marches corridor.

 

Three out of five being Orlesian, or formerly Orlesian, seems to fit my criteria pretty well, and the Chantry in Tevinter was never much of a supporter of the Orlesian Chantry (which it pre-dated, and had significant doctrinal differences with).  The Orlesian Chantry was just over a century old, total, and roughly half that in the most recent converts, like Antiva.  With the entire western Thedas recovering from the Second Blight, and the relative youth of the Chantry, it just didn't have the power to enforce the first Exalted March since Andraste.

I agree with you that SOME Darkspwan made it to the Dales 

 

Look at this map: 1000px-Area-The_Dales.jpg

 

 

But I doubt it was a major horde.

 

 

 

 

@Eliaston you were right forgot its only a Dalish motto, so I changed the name of the thread to the short one :-)



#444
In Exile

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The timeline is supposedly:
2:5 - Increase in hostility on the border
2:9 - Accepted date for Red Crossing incident
2:10 - Montsimmard captured and Exalted March started
2:14 - Elves capture Val Royeaux
<?> - Humans re-capture Val Royeaux and push the elves back
2:20 - Humans captre Halamshiral, war ends with human victory

My argument on the matter isn't that some nation added them - but that the people did. In fact most military isn't national forces but nobles with their private armies, also at that point western Thedas was already andrastian, including Tevinter (it was before the schism, though tensions were already there, obviously). In my headcanon I include influx of non-Orlesian troops (not official troops of any nation, though) for two major reason:
1. It explains why the tide of war changed so completely - alternative explanations could perhaps work (especially when we remind ourself that fantasy writers aren't necessarily authorities on military strategy ;) ) but this one just works well without additional effort
2. It's just only natural that there was this influx. If I were to believe that no reinforcements arrive, I would need to find some reason why - and that's quite hard, frankly. Acceptance of Chantry's autority was relatively widespread and the enemy was quite obviously "an enemy of faith", the Exalted March sounded much more convincing than the later one to liberate Starkhaven (that one in fact hardly makes any sense seeing as the occupying force was Tevinter, at that point an andrastian country too...). Oh, and there was land to conquer, so it seems like a good opportunity to benefit from the war, especially if you were some young noble with little in the "inherited fortune" department.

Basically, I'm faced by a choice:

a: I can assume that "only Orlais contributed troops" refers only to official involvement on national level, perhaps with any unofficial help played down even further in mostly orlesian-written history (and Orlais definitely wouldn't want to put too much emphasis on the fact that they needed any outside help to win the war)

or

b: I can accept some not-really-that-convincing explanation for how Orlais managed to crush Dales to this degree, while also looking for some separate explanation as to why Exalted March against pagans threatening the very seat of the Chantry remained unheeded by Andrastian people outside Orlais.


Option a) seems just simpler, cleaner and easier - much less mental gymnastics is required to have everything fall into place ;)

This narrative also works because it illustrates that the Dales fell in part because they never tried to reach out to the surrounding nations. By setting it up so that (1) the Dales had the power to beat Orlais in a standup fight and (2) the Dales lost only because they had adopted a very isolationist and hostile diplomatic perspective we have symmetry with both the plight of the Dalish today and the fall of the ancient Elvhen.

But yes it's ridiculous to think the beaten Orlesians had a counter offensive in them AND won a war of attrition in the Dales (which is my understanding of how the sack was portrayed).

#445
Aimi

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Basically, I'm faced by a choice:

a: I can assume that "only Orlais contributed troops" refers only to official involvement on national level, perhaps with any unofficial help played down even further in mostly orlesian-written history (and Orlais definitely wouldn't want to put too much emphasis on the fact that they needed any outside help to win the war)

or

b: I can accept some not-really-that-convincing explanation for how Orlais managed to crush Dales to this degree, while also looking for some separate explanation as to why Exalted March against pagans threatening the very seat of the Chantry remained unheeded by Andrastian people outside Orlais.


Option a) seems just simpler, cleaner and easier - much less mental gymnastics is required to have everything fall into place  ;)


Nah. Take a third option.

Recognize that the writers do not exert particular effort to make their writing on military subjects realistic or plausible. Understand that this is not merely a problem with BioWare writers historically (from the Mandalorian War in KotOR, to the Krogan Rebellions as described in Mass Effect, to the Great Galactic War in SWTOR, to the Fifth Blight and Exalted March of the Dales) but with writers of fiction in general. Accept that any attempt to explain these conflicts plausibly will run afoul of violating canonical fact.

And don't try to explain them at all.

They are simply instances of not-great writing in service of a higher cause. Lore is well and good, but lore has never been the core of any built world: it is background and context, and to be changed at whim to suit whatever story the writers are interested in telling. Flimsy explanations built on headcanon to neutralize the unrealistic aspects and 'make it work' accomplish nothing but assuaging one's personal feelings about the topic, while not convincing anyone else, and not standing up to the rather ironclad argument of "well it didn't actually happen that way in the [game/book/movie]".

To put it negatively, all efforts to headcanon an explanation for something that you think that the writers 'screwed up' will ultimately be sabotaged by the writers themselves. Or, to put it less negatively, focusing on the setting misses what's important about the story, and makes the gamer/reader/viewer into something she is not: a Rankean scholar focused on wie es eigentlich gewesen, as though any of this could have 'actually happened'.

Yeah, it's important for a setting to operate in a consistent and understandable way; realism and plausibility are definite pluses, when they can be found. But failing to meet those criteria is more of a failure of one's personal suspension of disbelief than anything else. The writing is what it is.

---

I discussed the topic of the course of the Exalted March at some length a few months ago, and like you, I got hung up on the "Orlais is beating the Dalish all by itself how is that even remotely possible after losing so badly" thing. Even made a fairly similar timeline, albeit on lesser amounts of information. I compared it at length with the actual Crusades (and went off-topic to counter a fairly idiotic claim made about them, but that's kind of what I do). And I provided other historical analogies from the time period as well as comparisons to things outside the time period to even further demonstrate how implausible the story was.

Unlike you, though, I didn't see any profit in trying to craft an in-universe explanation to fix the issue. I've done that sort of thing before, and the effort is, in my opinion, wasted. These sorts of lacunae and errors are not interesting as problems to solve, they are interesting as indicators of shifts in the writers' emphasis, different ways of approaching topics, and backgrounds for different kinds of stories.
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#446
Steelcan

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We can always resurrect the Crusades discussion, it'd be much more interesting than "I love elves they are so great, damned dirty shems" and "how sturdy are elf bones for bridges?"



#447
Eliastion

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(...)

When I read a book, watch a movie or play a game, I want it to make sense. An element of this is - generally speaking - giving writers the benefit of a doubt when something falls apart. It doesn't always work, some handwaving is necessary and some problems can't be dealt with even by handwaving, but often the results are pretty good - the world works. Also, you're wrong that these efforts are doomed to fail if the writers ever revisit the subject - one of my problems with DA Lore was Arlathan. It was easy to "fix" since nobody remembered well what really happened, but it made no sense for me that Elvhenan (As powerful as it was described) could fall like that to Tevinter (a nation of barbarians by comparison). Magic? Elves were better. Blood magic? Bah, elves had that too. Advantage in numbers? Well, that was still a time when Elves ruled the continent. It felt flimsy, one of my attempts at rationalizing this was that perhaps Elvhenan wasn't as united as it seemed - and a disastrous civil war would be a nice element laying ground for a slightly more realistic scenario of Tevinter conquest. And guess what - now it's pretty much confirmed...

I don't see how reveling in the feeling of superiority that "I see how what they created doesn't make sense" would be better than explaining it to myself so that it does make sense, especially when we're talking about a subject that is very unlikely to be ever examined closely enough to refute my explanation.

 

Also, there is another, perhaps more specific bit - i play RPG; the real kind, I mean, pen&paper. A consistent world has, in fact, value in and of itself, even separated from these particular stories we play through or read about in canon material. I can have much more fun in this world than the game itself has coded in ;) But a setting not making sense "because they can't write military conflicts" would be a problem. So, unlike you, i definitely find attempts to explain those not-making-sense bits so that they make sense to be worthwhile.


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#448
Aimi

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When I read a book, watch a movie or play a game, I want it to make sense. An element of this is - generally speaking - giving writers the benefit of a doubt when something falls apart. It doesn't always work, some handwaving is necessary and some problems can't be dealt with even by handwaving, but often the results are pretty good - the world works. Also, you're wrong that these efforts are doomed to fail if the writers ever revisit the subject - one of my problems with DA Lore was Arlathan. It was easy to "fix" since nobody remembered well what really happened, but it made no sense for me that Elvhenan (As powerful as it was described) could fall like that to Tevinter (a nation of barbarians by comparison). Magic? Elves were better. Blood magic? Bah, elves had that too. Advantage in numbers? Well, that was still a time when Elves ruled the continent. It felt flimsy, one of my attempts at rationalizing this was that perhaps Elvhenan wasn't as united as it seemed - and a disastrous civil war would be a nice element laying ground for a slightly more realistic scenario of Tevinter conquest. And guess what - now it's pretty much confirmed...
I don't see how reveling in the feeling of superiority that "I see how what they created doesn't make sense" would be better than explaining it to myself so that it does make sense, especially when we're talking about a subject that is very unlikely to be ever examined closely enough to refute my explanation.
 
Also, there is another, perhaps more specific bit - i play RPG; the real kind, I mean, pen&paper. A consistent world has, in fact, value in and of itself, even separated from these particular stories we play through or read about in canon material. I can have much more fun in this world than the game itself has coded in ;) But a setting not making sense "because they can't write military conflicts" would be a problem. So, unlike you, i definitely find attempts to explain those not-making-sense bits so that they make sense to be worthwhile.


Yes, I agree: it's nice for things to make sense. But they don't make sense. They self-evidently don't make sense. In most cases, they would have to be completely retconned to make sense. And even if all they required was clarification from the writers - "oh, we implied that, sure, but you can twist around the words and actually it meant this" - that would still be completely out of your hands.

Take this Exalted March thing. It's already been rewritten clarified at least once. There's a very clear change of emphasis there. There's no reason they couldn't change emphasis again. It happened in the setting's past, after all. It's not like there's something sitting there, in-game, happening in front of the player, clearly showing everybody that LOL THIS IS NOT RIGHT. You can play the "limited historical accounts, we don't know what REALLY HAPPENED" card. There are plenty of other examples that are from the game. And they are equally implausible, if not more so!

Like the fact that your army at Skyhold is camping out on a frigging glacier. Where is everybody getting food? Are they eating the snow? Armies can't do that. If armies stay together outside of campaigning season, they stay in valleys or plains or other temperate places where they can actually get food. They can't bring large amounts of food overland to someplace else, because that's actually impossible unless you have, like, railroads, or the internal combustion engine. Absent those things, when you stay in an even slightly inhospitable place for long-term quarters, most of your army starves, gets horrendously sick, and dies. Far from serving as the nucleus for a grand army to defeat Corypheus, Skyhold would at best end up being like Valley Forge, which was only, y'know, the most grievous defeat that the Continental Army ever suffered.

It's really really hard for me to imagine a way for them to come up with a way to make it so that Skyhold is not in the Frostbacks, or that the army that the player sees with her own eyes, tents scattered throughout the pass, is not there. I mean...that would completely change a lot of things! It is a fairly integral part of the game experience!

Going by that, and by other things in the setting, it seems as though the writers don't really acknowledge the issue of food supply. Not just in military operations, although there is that. But in other contexts, too. Orzammar supposedly relies on food from the surface. Like, this comes up in Origins and it comes up in Inquisition. It is not as in-your-face as Skyhold is, but it's a present concern. But where does all this food come from? Overland? Through that Frostback pass from Origins? It can't have been through the water connection that Orzammar doesn't have. Even Daerwin's Mouth hasn't been used in centuries, and only appears to connect to Orzammar by way of intermediary thaigs and Deep Roads anyway. Or take the siege of Adamant, which is apparently a set-piece engagement between two sizable forces in the middle of a total wasteland. Again: what are they eating? These aren't gaps in our knowledge of the setting that await only headcanon to be bridged. They're just stuff that don't make no sense.

The writers' tactics sometimes leave things to be desired, as well. The Battle of Ostagar, for instance, can theoretically make sense if you assume that everybody involved was a complete idiot, including the Warden and Alistair, but also encompassing Duncan, Cailan (of course), and Loghain (whose actions made little sense if he was betraying Cailan and made even less sense, if that's possible, if he wasn't betraying Cailan). But that's not very much fun. And it seems clear that the writers don't want you to assume that everybody involved was a complete idiot, because they know that's not very much fun. Ostagar isn't portrayed in subsequent media as a Clash of the Morons. It's supposed to be a terrible tragedy with ostensibly complex (or at least inscrutable) causes, the sort of thing that was destined to be an argument topic for decades. It seems unlikely that the writers would rewrite Ostagar. Instead, they'll do what they did in Inquisition - poke a little fun at the endless arguments, emphasize the unknowable nature of it all, and move on with more important things like the story that they actually want to tell.

I mean, there are just so many examples of why the devs just aren't making a plausible setting. Because they're obviously not trying to. That's their Thing. They're not academics. (Which is a good thing, because academics are usually terrible writers of fiction.) This is true of most fiction - worldbuilders simply can't work through all of the plausibility angles, or follow all the potential implications of something new. I'm sure that plenty of your PnP campaigns follow the same sort of track. We can pretty much assume that implausibilities exist; the only differences are what, exactly, they are, and how badly they break a given person's willing suspension of disbelief.

The point isn't "hurf durf loogit dumb biower righters who dunno HISTRY". It's not "reveling in the feeling of superiority", because whenever I look at what authors of fiction can do that I can't, "superiority" is not what I feel. It's recognizing fictional worlds for what they are. And it's not expecting them to be things they aren't; just as I wouldn't expect readable prose out of 99% of the journal articles I read, I wouldn't expect fictional settings to to fully worked-through with no flaws. It's an acknowledgment that fixing creators' mistakes is at best an endless runaround that can only possibly benefit oneself and which is likely to cause more problems than it solves anyway. I personally think that this is an intensely liberating thing, and I think that it's an entirely reasonable 'third option'. Obviously, you don't buy in. Which is fine, too, I guess. I suppose I wanted to make the point that you were drawing a false dichotomy in your earlier post, and that all this argument is probably much ado about nothing.
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#449
Eliastion

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(...)

I get your point, but apparently weren't clear enough with my own position. I do agree with (most of, at least) what you say - there are multiple cases when things don't match, sometimes for gameplay reasons (areas we visit in Denerim are so tiny for being sizable chunks of supposedly 70 000 city), sometimes for reasons completely unknown... When forcing the setting to make sense, supplementing facts given to us with a little bit of headcanon can only take us so far. Yes, there are things that won't work no matter how you rationalize them - like battle at Ostagar that (if taken as we see it) would require us to conclude that Loghain is an idiot despite the games consistently painting him as brilliant tactician and good strategist (though also bad politician). Faced with this particular situation I grudgingly just let go of what i saw with my own eyes and go with what the developers and the world says about Loghain - he was not an idiot, nor did he suddenly go full retard in Ostagar... I take the results (Cailan left to die, Loghain retreating with portion of forces he managed to lead out of there) and try to "forget" the battle itself.

And there are other situations like this - sometimes the only way is to ignore some aspects of what we learn, even if we learn it by looking at it with our own eyes. When it is possible, however, I still prefer to stick to what the game gives us as closely as possible. In case of Exalted March I include unofficial sources despite no official help on national level - because it's the easiest way to explain it. If this was unavailable, I would go with some more elaborate explanation. If no explanation was available at all, I would try dropping some "facts" (as little and as seemingly unimportant for as possible) until I could somehow put it back together...

 

It's not that the games have no glaring holes that can't be easily fixed - some of them pose a real problem and either must be ignored or require heavy head-retconning rather than simply some tame headcanon. But that doesn't mean that there's no value in "fixing" those holes that can, indeed, be fixed - and with relatively little effort.

But, as I already said, all this is, to an extent, a perspective of someone who has use of the setting outside of the video game itself. I guess it may be changing my approach to some things (though I expect some people, especially those heavily leaning to the roleplaying side of game experience, would still share my sentiments ;) ).

 

Either way, to end the discussion, my position could've indeed been seen as false dichotomy because I didn't explicitly state one assumption that precludes the "third option" you suggest. If I want to explain the course ot hat war so that it makes sense in light of information given, I have those two options. And I do want ;) 

Without said assumption, however... well. MST3K Mantra is, indeed, always an option - I'm not going to argue against that :D 


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#450
Wulfram

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I don't find the story of the exalted march all that implausible, though that may be simply because we have little details.  I'd basically see it as the Dalish possessing the upper hand in the field, at least with their main army, but losing due to the Orlesians being better able to replace their forces and perhaps them also learning from the early encounters and performing better as the war went on.

 

The fall of Val Royeaux is the most awkward detail.  One would expect taking the enemy capital city to require a more solid superiority than fits with the story that I'm telling.  But it might be possible if it fell to surprise or treachery (or you could stick in some special magic), rather than being a lengthy siege.  And you could paint it as a last desperate thrust to achieve victory in a war situation that was already showing signs of turning against them.