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[Elfyoth]

The Emerlad Knights were controled by the Dales goverment? I mean if they were, the goverment knew about this incident? 

[MoonDrummer]

I don't find the story of the exalted march all that implausible, though that may be simply because we have little details.  I'd basically see it as the Dalish possessing the upper hand in the field, at least with their main army, but losing due to the Orlesians being better able to replace their forces and perhaps them also learning from the early encounters and performing better as the war went on.

 

The fall of Val Royeaux is the most awkward detail.  One would expect taking the enemy capital city to require a more solid superiority than fits with the story that I'm telling.  But it might be possible if it fell to surprise or treachery (or you could stick in some special magic), rather than being a lengthy siege.  And you could paint it as a last desperate thrust to achieve victory in a war situation that was already showing signs of turning against them.

I go with the head cannon that Orlais got a right old rogering, but once the exalted march was called their forces were bolstered by commoners from the Marches and whatnot. 

[Heimdall]

The fall of Val Royeaux is the most awkward detail.  One would expect taking the enemy capital city to require a more solid superiority than fits with the story that I'm telling.  But it might be possible if it fell to surprise or treachery (or you could stick in some special magic), rather than being a lengthy siege.  And you could paint it as a last desperate thrust to achieve victory in a war situation that was already showing signs of turning against them.

I thought that Val Royeaux didn't actually fall, but the Dales' forces were close enough to launch an assault when the Exalted March was called.

I see it a bit like Hannibal and Rome. The Dales had fewer but more skilled soldiers with some talented generals while the Orlesians involved were less talented but able to replace vast armies. Hannibal never got around to attacking Rome, but the Romans were absolutely terrified that he would and "Hannibal at the Gates" became synonymous with terror. How the Orlesians turned it around, maybe the generals got better or the Dales simply took too many losses.

[Elfyoth]

Btw you all know tensions were high enough before all that happened. The second Blight began and the Elves refused to go fight it. It was early Andrastianism, who most likely were mad at the Elves for following their own gods than the "Maker" that Shartan helped. I suppouse the Chantry was very furious at them, about not helping the Maker after all of this, and about accepting Maferath's gift of homeland. Yes Maferath was the one who gave them the Dales from what I remember, I will check for a link. So there is that, tensions were high:

 

1-The Elves have accepted Maferath the "betrayer" gift of homeland.

 

2- The Elves refused to belive and worship Andrastianism 

 

3- The Dales refused to help fighting the Blight. Possibly becouse the Chantry wanted to force them to worship the Maker. And possibly becouse of the tensions between Orlais and the Dales. And remember that most of the pepole  that fought agsint the Bligh were ANDRASTIAN. 

 

And now of the last straw- Red Crossing incident. Now if the Emerlad Knghits were not from the Goverment. And if the goverment told them it was a mistake, we dont know. 

 

Then the war began. But, to answer the questions of what does "Orlais was the only one that could have provided troops" Its cuz if the Exalted MArch happened after Red Crossing Orlais was the only one to be able to provide andrastian troops? 

[Heimdall]

1-The Elves have accepted Maferath the "betrayer" gift of homeland.

I'm reasonably sure that Maferath gave them the Dales before his betrayal was revealed, which wasn't for some time after Andraste's death.
 

2- The Elves refused to belive and worship Andrastianism

Or at least the Dales' government expelled missionaries and forbid the building of Chantries, which suggests to me that they were achieving a degree of success in their efforts among the populous.
 

3- The Dales refused to help fighting the Blight. Possibly becouse the Chantry wanted to force them to worship the Maker. And possibly becouse of the tensions between Orlais and the Dales. And remember that most of the pepole  that fought agsint the Bligh were ANDRASTIAN. 

The Dales were isolationist from the beginning, before the founding of the Chantry, that much wasn't new. People were angry with them on this count because they refused to offer aid as their neighbors were slaughtered, not because they didn't worship the Maker.

[dragonflight288]

I think Orlais was the only country to officially provide troops, but there were volunteers from all over.

 

There is that one templar who joined the Exalted March for the sole purpose of killing elves because he loved killing elves so much and he wasn't Orlesian. He was honored by the Chantry and Orlais because he killed so many elves, and for the exact same reason his name is still cursed by the elves. 

[Elfyoth]

I'm reasonably sure that Maferath gave them the Dales before his betrayal was revealed, which wasn't for some time after Andraste's death.

Or at least the Dales' government expelled missionaries and forbid the building of Chantries, which suggests to me that they were achieving a degree of success in their efforts among the populous.

The Dales were isolationist from the beginning, before the founding of the Chantry, that much wasn't new. People were angry with them on this count because they refused to offer aid as their neighbors were slaughtered, not because they didn't worship the Maker.

No no, the Dales I think refused ti help the humans becouse the humans wanted to force them to Worship the Maker.

[In Exile]

The Emerlad Knights were controled by the Dales goverment? I mean if they were, the goverment knew about this incident?

They went off reservation to execute their mission. I'm not sure how much that counts as a result.

[LOLandStuff]

Nope. The elves just sat it out and even watched Montsimmard get sacked by the darkspawn.

[Addai]

^ That kind of thing goes around apparently. The Last Flight mentions that Orlais only sent a token force to assist while the entire of the Anderfels, Free Marches, Rivain and Antivia were being decimated in the Fourth Blight.

[Eliastion]

Nope. The elves just sat it out and even watched Montsimmard get sacked by the darkspawn.

It didn't. Get sacked by darkspawn, I mean. There's an "almost" in that story.

Though frankly it all just sounds strange, that elven army miles from their border, spectating a battle apparently unnoticed or at least ignored by Darkspawn... Kinda hard to imagine the scene  

[MoonDrummer]

^ That kind of thing goes around apparently. The Last Flight mentions that Orlais only sent a token force to assist while the entire of the Anderfels, Free Marches, Rivain and Antivia were being decimated in the Fourth Blight.

I think Tevinter sat it out aswell

[LOLandStuff]

It didn't. Get sacked by darkspawn, I mean. There's an "almost" in that story.

Though frankly it all just sounds strange, that elven army miles from their border, spectating a battle apparently unnoticed or at least ignored by Darkspawn... Kinda hard to imagine the scene

 

They were saving the elves for last.

What I wonder is what the elves were thinking at that time. Did they actually believe the darkspawn will just ignore them once they were done with humans.

[SgtSteel91]

They were saving the elves for last.

What I wonder is what the elves were thinking at that time. Did they actually believe the darkspawn will just ignore them once they were done with humans.

 

That Humans could take care of the Darkspawn by themselves and the Elves wouldn't lose their people fighting Darkspawn with the Humans doing the fighting? Perhaps, also, they feared that if they stepped in, the Darkspawn would start attacking the Dales in retaliation and Blighting everything up there. Maybe they even thought after the Blight, Humans would be more focused on rebuilding than pestering them to convert.

 

Maybe the Elves did sent a token force, or an army, or some form of help but it was written out of the history books by Humans to make Elves look bad?

[Heimdall]

No no, the Dales I think refused ti help the humans becouse the humans wanted to force them to Worship the Maker.

They refused to help them because their leaders were isolationists that wanted nothing to do with humans, so they stuck their heads in the sand.  They were like that before Drakon and the Chantry even existed.

[Steelcan]

I think Orlais was the only country to officially provide troops, but there were volunteers from all over.

 

There is that one templar who joined the Exalted March for the sole purpose of killing elves because he loved killing elves so much and he wasn't Orlesian. He was honored by the Chantry and Orlais because he killed so many elves, and for the exact same reason his name is still cursed by the elves. 

he's a templar, not a foreign volunteer, kind of a different thing

[Eliastion]

(...) Perhaps, also, they feared that if they stepped in, the Darkspawn would start attacking the Dales in retaliation and Blighting everything up there. (...)

 

Maybe the Elves did sent a token force, or an army, or some form of help but it was written out of the history books by Humans to make Elves look bad?

The first is unlikely because if there were Darkspawn in Orlais and in Ferelden, there most definitely were some in Dales too.

The second... I don't think so. I mean, sure, Chatry tried to write Shartan out of history, but at worst I think Elves could've gotten to Montsimmard late for the party and when the battle was getting to the end, the humans assumed that elves were standing there on that hill the whole time. But even that is heavy interpretation - frankly, I don't think there was any elven army at all. Some scouts perhaps, but army? If they were going to actually send it beyond their borders, it wouldn't be to risk standing near the battlefield while doing nothing.

Not sending anything on the other hand seems more than plausible.

[Steelcan]

The first is unlikely because if there were Darkspawn in Orlais and in Ferelden, there most definitely were some in Dales too.

The second... I don't think so. I mean, sure, Chatry tried to write Shartan out of history, but at worst I think Elves could've gotten to Montsimmard late for the party and when the battle was getting to the end, the humans assumed that elves were standing there on that hill the whole time. But even that is heavy interpretation - frankly, I don't think there was any elven army at all. Some scouts perhaps, but army? If they were going to actually send it beyond their borders, it wouldn't be to risk standing near the battlefield while doing nothing.

Not sending anything on the other hand seems more than plausible.

You don't get to just say "I don't believe it" when faced with a historical happening

 

there isn't even an elven counter-narrative that denies or explains the situation

[SgtSteel91]

You don't get to just say "I don't believe it" when faced with a historical happening

 

there isn't even an elven counter-narrative that denies or explains the situation

 

History written and remembered by Humans, maybe.

 

Maybe all of the elven historical records of that time were destroyed by Humans? What do the elves really know of their history other than what humans write about them and whatever the Keepers remember with oral history, perhaps some texts that escaped the cultural genocide?

[Steelcan]

History written and remembered by Humans, maybe.

 

Maybe all of the elven historical records of that time were destroyed by Humans? What do the elves really know of their history other than what humans write about them and whatever the Keepers remember with oral history, perhaps some texts that escaped the cultural genocide?

...........................................................

 

they also didn't know about keeping slaves, but wasn't any less true, they didn't know about the Vallisin, not any less true, their existing narrative about the 2nd Exalted March is shown to be complete bunk, but we should totally take their word that it didn't happen, despite having no records of it at all in elven accounts not even a "humans made up nasty lies about us during the Blight"

[Eliastion]

You don't get to just say "I don't believe it" when faced with a historical happening

 

there isn't even an elven counter-narrative that denies or explains the situation

Sure as hell I get to  

We're talking Chantry-affected history from seven hundred years ago and the lore claims that elves were standing with an army in visible range of battle, many miles from Dalish border, and they were there as spectators, a status that was apparently honored by darkspawn too.

As usual, I try and make some sense out of this. And the most sensible answer seems to be "it's completely false, distorted beyond recognition or heavily misinterpreted".

[Steelcan]

Sure as hell I get to

We're talking Chantry-affected history from seven hundred years ago and the lore claims that elves were standing with an army in visible range of battle, many miles from Dalish border, and they were there as spectators, a status that was apparently honored by darkspawn too.

As usual, I try and make some sense out of this. And the most sensible answer seems to be "it's completely false, distorted beyond recognition or heavily misinterpreted".

based on what?  Humans being inherently tricksy and evil towards elves?  There is no historical account that says the opposite, human or elven, denying it wholesale or even misconstrued requires proof, which you have none of

[SgtSteel91]

Eh, that was only a theory and even I think that the Elves in the Dales didn't intervene with the Blight for one reason or another.

 

But I hope we can all agree that they didn't deserve all that happened to them, not on that scale. Really, what happened to the Elves in the Dales should never happen to any group of people.

[Colonelkillabee]

Eh, that was only a theory and even I think that the Elves in the Dales didn't intervene with the Blight for one reason or another.

 

But I hope we can all agree that they didn't deserve all that happened to them, not on that scale. Really, what happened to the Elves in the Dales should never happen to any group of people.

Meh, the elves today don't deserve it. However, the ancient elves are different. If it were me, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same exact thing to my enemy if they took villages and cities.

[Eliastion]

based on what?  Humans being inherently tricksy and evil towards elves?  There is no historical account that says the opposite, human or elven, denying it wholesale or even misconstrued requires proof, which you have none of

No, based on the fact that

1. It doesn't make sense for elven army to be there

2. If elven army was there it doesn't make sense that they were not dragged into the battle whether they wanted or not (darkspawn are not known to be too discrimatory in who they kill)

 

Chantry lying into world's face makes more sense (they're known to do that). Even people misinterpreting late help make more. Finally (and that's my favorite explanation so far) - elves refusing help despite keeping tabs on darkspawn horde (and being well aware of situation Montsimmard was going to face) getting distorted through ages into "elven army watching as Montsimmard was attacked by Darkspawn" - makes a whole lot more sense.