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[TK514]

Page 64, World of Thedas timeline has an entry stating that the elves in the Dales did nothing as the Darkspawn nearly destroy the nearby city of Montsimmard.  There would be no reason to make a specific timeline entry about the event if it were just a couple of scouts hanging out.  It is, instead, a WoG indictment of the Dales in general.

[Eliastion]

If it's phrased as you say, it reinforces my position rather than weakens it. "Dales did nothing" - they didn't send any army. "Nearby city" - yeah, it is relatively near the Dales, so if they were keeping tabs on the horde that attacked it, they would likely know of Montsimmard upcoming plight and could possibly have helped if they wanted to.

And a major battle in Montsimmard sounds worthy of timeline entry, especially as it exemplifies Dalish attitude of considering endangered human cities to be someone else's problem.

[TK514]

It only supports your position if you're the sort that thinks it is valid to cherry pick only the information that you like and dismiss everything else.

[Eliastion]

Then apparently I am "the sort that thinks it is valid to cherry pick only the information that you like and dismiss everything else" since yes, this does reinforce my position (unless you misquoted and it's phrased differently).

Though you have a strange way of saying "someone that takes the information given and tries to build a coherent picture out of it". But whatever suits you best.

[LOLandStuff]

@Eliastion

 

What are you on about?

[In Exile]

Then apparently I am "the sort that thinks it is valid to cherry pick only the information that you like and dismiss everything else" since yes, this does reinforce my position (unless you misquoted and it's phrased differently).
Though you have a strange way of saying "someone that takes the information given and tries to build a coherent picture out of it". But whatever suits you best.

I think the WOG passage is meant to suggest that it was within the Dales means to try to save Montsimmard and that they refused to do so for isolationist reasons.

Whether or not you see that as indictable behaviour is - I think - meant to be up to the reader.

[Sui Causa]

I really do think that it should be an option for an elven Inquisitor to smash the Pro-Andrastian-Propoganda statutes scattered across the Exalted Plains. Roleplaying my elfquisitor I was all offended reading them and totally wanted them destroyed. I'm extremely interested in finding out more about what exactly happened, but to have everything twisted around to >They brought this all upon themselves they deserve what they got and where they are now just makes me extremely sad. The elves were isolationists and cautious because they didn't trust humans.

 

After all that happened, seeing how elves live today, I think that they should have been more isolationist and distrustful.

 

If Germany or Japan had been sacked and had most of their populations massacred, the innocent left behind enslaved for generations, their technology and accomplishments chewed up and spit out and their Gods nullified, we would think that maybe we went too far. If Bioware turns the next game into a >See they were evil then and the elves are evil now smite the elves raze the alienages destroy the dalish! then I'm just going to give up and go full Qun supporter or something.

[Colonelkillabee]

I really do think that it should be an option for an elven Inquisitor to smash the Pro-Andrastian-Propoganda statutes scattered across the Exalted Plains. Roleplaying my elfquisitor I was all offended reading them and totally wanted them destroyed. I'm extremely interested in finding out more about what exactly happened, but to have everything twisted around to >They brought this all upon themselves they deserve what they got and where they are now just makes me extremely sad. The elves were isolationists and cautious because they didn't trust humans.

 

After all that happened, seeing how elves live today, I think that they should have been more isolationist and distrustful.

 

If Germany or Japan had been sacked and had most of their populations massacred, the innocent left behind enslaved for generations, their technology and accomplishments chewed up and spit out and their Gods nullified, we would think that maybe we went too far. If Bioware turns the next game into a >See they were evil then and the elves are evil now smite the elves raze the alienages destroy the dalish! then I'm just going to give up and go full Qun supporter or something.

Well, we already say this about the results of WWI and the treaty of Versailles. Personally I don't agree, though I do agree that if peace was what they wanted truly, then yes it went too far.

 

As for the elves, it's a little hard for me to buy the line that they should be distrustful of the people who retaliated for the elven invasion, even if their retaliation did go a bit far. Regardless, it's not like it's surprising or was unwarranted. Get my meaning?

[Colonelkillabee]

Granted, they should distrust humans, but it's not like this is all or even mostly on them why things are as they are today.

[karushna5]

I agree that it is all one sided but most of all I just think Bioware should wait to write any racial prejudice. They don't hate elves so much as they want to level the playing field. Humans are bad but Elves are just as bad in the past. Live and let live. Let it Go, all the hate of the past. I think that is their intention, but it comes off as extremely one sided and seems to be an empty way to deal with things. 

 

Basically, I don't think racial prejudice should be so intrinsic into the setting, just to treat it immaturely. It is a hard issue faced all around the world, and confining it to, you are just angry is just not a way to deal with it. City elf was a thing in Origins. Making fun of a culture trying to keep its roots is demoralizing and will have dissonance with a lot of players.

 

Basically I am saying that they shouldn't have made Elves the way they are if they won't deal with that situation with respect. Really I think Bioware should perhaps approach it as they have with women and LGBT issues. Or maybe, not at all. Deal with racial prejudice or make them their own separate nation of people who are on par with humans. They both subjugate each other! But don't say the people kept in their own slums, who have to wander constantly or be stuck in cities where War Crimes against them are practically legal are the same because they Used to be the same. They aren't anymore, and that is no excuse for anything humans are currently doing against them.

[Eliastion]

I think the WOG passage is meant to suggest that it was within the Dales means to try to save Montsimmard and that they refused to do so for isolationist reasons.

Whether or not you see that as indictable behaviour is - I think - meant to be up to the reader.

Montsimmard is explicitly an important Orlesian city - I've never seen anyone claiming it was within the Dales 

[Steelcan]

Montsimmard is explicitly an important Orlesian city - I've never seen anyone claiming it was within the Dales 

yes but the Dalish could have saved it with their army, but they let it burn instead because they are isolationists

[Caddius]

I could see a Dalish army having a Loghain moment in regards to Montsimmard. One of the arguments used by the Pro-Loghain at Ostagar faction is that the signal came too late, and the whole plan hinged on being able to flank the darkspawn. Judging by Cailan's      face, and how many of the characters were dismissing it as an unusually large raid, the darkspawn had far greater numbers than expected. Having the horde stretching that far back would ruin any chance of a decent flanking attack, so Loghain quit the field. Maybe the Dalish were intending to come to Montsimmard to bolster the garrison and defend the city, but instead they faced the prospect of an open field battle against a much larger darkspawn force? Then they would simply observe, and decide it couldn't be saved and leave. While I can buy the elves not caring to go to Orlais's aid, I'm confused as to why they would send an army instead of a few spies to keep an eye on Montsimmard. It could just be an oversight by a writer, or there's more to it. *shrug* It could also be Chantry propaganda. Regardless, I do buy that the Dales didn't do much to aid the human nations. While the human nations usually don't help each other out much either, because they had pointy ears and a 'heathen' religion, they were blamed more for it.

The war seems to have started off as a typical border skirmish and become a full-fledged territorial war, with the Dalish even sacking Val Royeaux and Montsimmard. The ensuing panic resulted in an Exalted March. However the war started, it ended as a religious crusade hell-bent on wiping out Dalish culture and religion and taking that territory and making it Orlesian. As the statues in the Exalted Plains tell it, it was a war of annihilation they felt justified in. I don't particularly blame either side for the war starting. By the border skirmishes, both sides were complicit. But I do blame the Orlesians for what was, in effect, ethnic cleansing. They removed elven citizens and put them into alienages, having Orlesian peasants and nobles take the land they once held. They successfully broke the power of the Creator-worship and converted the alienage elves to Andrastianism. The elves who escaped this fate are still running from human kingdoms and the Chantry.

I see it as scaling like this:

Nevarran/Orlesian border skirmishes: Wars were a few scraps of strategic territory like Perendale are exchanged. Political ping-pong, basically.

Orlesian Occupation: As Nevarra and Ferelden can tell you, brutal and unpleasant. A lot of horrific actions taken by the Orlesians. The Fereldans have their Orlesian loathing and paranoia hat for excellent reasons. However, the Fereldan land-holders (relatively) remained in place, and the nobility was alternatively courted or hunted by the Empire.

Eradication of the Dales: There was no elven nation after the Orlesians finished with them.

The elves feel justified in being distrustful of humans because (or so everyone believed, including many humans) their empire of Arlathan was destroyed by humans, they lost their immortality to humans, they were enslaved for centuries by humans. They were given lands by Maferath thanks to Andraste's pledge to them, as a gift for their aid in war, but they had to know their position was tenuous. The Dales were a country with PTSD, and justified paranoia about the massive neighbor to their west.

[Cobwebmaster]

yes but the Dalish could have saved it with their army, but they let it burn instead because they are isolationists

The question remains why would the Dalish want to? Whilst it could be argued that their "isolantionism" was to a certain extent self inflicted following their "antagonism" towards Orlais generally, they were subsequently, conquered and had huge chunks of their population enslaved by Orlesians who threw many of them in ghettos. What benefits would the Dalish derive from sacrificing even more lives to assist their repressors? Andraste gifted them the Dales following the Exalted March against the Imperium. Orlais decided to take that away by force of arms. Orlesians have a history of ambition and conquest attempts. They were not trusted by their fellow humans in Ferelden and the free Marches which they invaded so what reason should the Dalish have to leap to their defence and how could they trust Orlesians to deliver on any promises they might have made by way of gratitude for any help?
 

[Insaner Robot]

The point in time in which the Dalish could have aided Montsimmard, they were not yet repressed, hadn't lost the Dales and Orlais had not invaded Fereldan or the Free Marches.

So the question shouldn't be "why would the Dalish want to?" But "why wouldn't the join they other nations against the Blight?"

 

I believe it to be possible that The Dalish had an army viewing the Battle that nearly destroyed Montsimmard, beacause of the proximity to the Dales. Montsimmard is extremely close to the Dales on maps, a similar distance to the one between Lothering and Ostagar. So if The Darkspawn had destroyed the city and overwhelmed Human resistance there, the horde would have been able to march on the Elves.

[Caddius]

The question remains why would the Dalish want to? Whilst it could be argued that their "isolantionism" was to a certain extent self inflicted following their "antagonism" towards Orlais generally, they were subsequently, conquered and had huge chunks of their population enslaved by Orlesians who threw many of them in ghettos. What benefits would the Dalish derive from sacrificing even more lives to assist their repressors? Andraste gifted them the Dales following the Exalted March against the Imperium. Orlais decided to take that away by force of arms. Orlesians have a history of ambition and conquest attempts. They were not trusted by their fellow humans in Ferelden and the free Marches which they invaded so what reason should the Dalish have to leap to their defence and how could they trust Orlesians to deliver on any promises they might have made by way of gratitude for any help?
 

Like Insaner Robot said, they haven't messed with Ferelden at this point. However, they did recently lose control of the Anderfels and I believe were still holding onto the western Free Marches at this point. Basically Drakon's empire is beginning to decline, so the Orlesians turn to the Dales as a politically isolated target to expand their borders.

The Dales seem to have been founded on the principle of, "The Tevinter Imperium screwed us over. Let's move as far away as possible from those lunatics, and avoid contact with humans. That worked for Arlathan, didn't it?" 

I believe there's been mention in Codex entries that the Dalish went into isolation to try to reclaim their immortality, going off the legends of it and how it was lost passed down by generation after generation of slaves?

As for not trusting the humans to keep their word, the promise was made by Andraste to Shartan, and kept by Maferath. But Maferath's family empire crumbled. The Drakon family are not descendants of that promise, and don't feel particularly beholden to it.

[Eliastion]

yes but the Dalish could have saved it with their army, but they let it burn instead because they are isolationists

Yeah, upon reading In Exile's post while not falling asleep over my keyboard I managed to understand it this time, despite the lack of apostrophe that threw me off the first time  

[MisterJB]

2. If elven army was there it doesn't make sense that they were not dragged into the battle whether they wanted or not (darkspawn are not known to be too discrimatory in who they kill)

Except during Bligths. It's possible the Archdemon predicted the elves wouldn't get involved if he didn't attack them and there was no need to fight both Orlais and the Dales at once.

[dragonflight288]

he's a templar, not a foreign volunteer, kind of a different thing

 

So does that mean if the garrison of templars from Ferelden, Antiva, Nevarra or what have you sent templars, it wouldn't count as foreign aid?

[TK514]

So does that mean if the garrison of templars from Ferelden, Antiva, Nevarra or what have you sent templars, it wouldn't count as foreign aid?

 

They're members of the Chantry, not a foreign national force, and would be expected to take part in an Exalted March.

 

This would be a case of the Chantry redeploying troops, not a Nation sending aid/committing forces of its own.

[dragonflight288]

They're members of the Chantry, not a foreign national force, and would be expected to take part in an Exalted March.

 

This would be a case of the Chantry redeploying troops, not a Nation sending aid/committing forces of its own.

 

And the Chantry started out, and even in the Stolen Throne is to a certain extent seen as, an Orlesian organization. 

 

EDIT: So essentially the Exalted March likely included soldiers from all over, and they may or may not even be Orlesian by birth, but because they are part of the Chantry's forces as templars, they don't count as foreign aid. 

[In Exile]

Montsimmard is explicitly an important Orlesian city - I've never seen anyone claiming it was within the Dales

I don't think you parsed the grammar right "within the Dales means" is another way if saying "it was possible for the Dales to"

[In Exile]

The point in time in which the Dalish could have aided Montsimmard, they were not yet repressed, hadn't lost the Dales and Orlais had not invaded Fereldan or the Free Marches.
So the question shouldn't be "why would the Dalish want to?" But "why wouldn't the join they other nations against the Blight?"

I believe it to be possible that The Dalish had an army viewing the Battle that nearly destroyed Montsimmard, beacause of the proximity to the Dales. Montsimmard is extremely close to the Dales on maps, a similar distance to the one between Lothering and Ostagar. So if The Darkspawn had destroyed the city and overwhelmed Human resistance there, the horde would have been able to march on the Elves.

The argument is Realpolitik: leaving the Orlesians to fend for themselves to fortify the Dales from an eventual darkspawn invasion. I mean it could also have racist reasons - posters often tend to frame it as being racist without realising it (elves had historical mistrust with humans) but that needn't be true.

[Elfyoth]

Lets revive this thread before it'll be named necromanced thread lol

[Bad King]

Well, we already say this about the results of WWI and the treaty of Versailles. Personally I don't agree, though I do agree that if peace was what they wanted truly, then yes it went too far.

 

As for the elves, it's a little hard for me to buy the line that they should be distrustful of the people who retaliated for the elven invasion, even if their retaliation did go a bit far. Regardless, it's not like it's surprising or was unwarranted. Get my meaning?

 

The obliteration of an entire civilisation is always unwarranted. This is particularly true when the elven attack on Red Crossing was due to a misunderstanding.