Here is my question for you all: How to solve the issue of elves in Dragon Age? Of course, let's be consistent and not come out and say that they would get an army and exterminate humans.
Welp, there goes my answer.
Seriously, though, it would have to be a cultural change amongst the humans more than anything. The Chantry is very human-centric, considering elves, dwarves, and qunari to be lesser races. And since the Chantry is the leading human organization in Thedas, many humans follow this philosophy without question, regardless of their social standing. Leliana being Divine is a step in the right direction, even if she's a bit..... rushed in her actions.
Honestly, I feel that there has to be more separation between Chantry law and government law. It won't happen in DA (at least, not at this point in time), but it's still something to work towards. The Chantry is a place of worship, not a government institution, no matter how hard it tries to be one.
tbf, Dalish culture isn't what dictates where they live. It's the fact that Orlais had given the elves of the Dales an ultimatum at the end of the Exalted March: either abandon their culture and live in human cities as second-class citizens, or be forced to become wandering nomads that weren't welcomed anywhere in human territory. The Dalish don't choose to live as nomads anymore than city elves choose to live in alienages.
I can understand the letting go of traditions if it's leading to the collapse of your society, but that isn't what's going on with the Dalish. The Dalish are trying to rebuild what they lost. Same could be said of the dwarves, but they're being slower about it (not to mention that their culture is sort of forcing them to circle the drain).
Personally, the Dalish are my favorite faction in the DA universe, though I deeply respect the city elves due to how much they have to survive in their day-to-day. I don't care if one of them is 'more elfy' than the other. They have their own cultures and I'm not one to decide who's got the right culture. There's so much grey in the world and all we have are our opinions in the end.
Plus, if you listen closely to the dialogue in the city elf origin, there are elves who believe the Dalish either don't exist, or they're savages, the latter of which is what many humans believe of the Dalish.
Anyway, lets just talk about how awesome the elves in general are.
Stop being rational @Gamer072196.
I like that their are two separate cultures. Merrill and Sera are both really high on my favorite character list. It makes for a richer world when you have competing ideas of what it means to "be" something.
I like that their are two separate cultures. Merrill and Sera are both really high on my favorite character list. It makes for a richer world when you have competing ideas of what it means to "be" something.
I don't like Sera all that much, but it's mostly due to the fact that she so easily dismisses opposing opinions as 'stupid' without even thinking. She does make quite a few good points, but the fact that she refuses to try and understand why people think differently than her is a serious hang-up for me. I'm on the fence about how I feel about her as a person, but as a character, I don't really like her at all. Which is saying something, considering how I don't like Vivienne as a person at all, yet I really like her as a character.
Anyway, I don't think we should talk about Sera vs. other elves anymore lest this thread fall apart due to it.
Seriously, though, it would have to be a cultural change amongst the humans more than anything. The Chantry is very human-centric, considering elves, dwarves, and qunari to be lesser races. And since the Chantry is the leading human organization in Thedas, many humans follow this philosophy without question, regardless of their social standing. Leliana being Divine is a step in the right direction, even if she's a bit..... rushed in her actions.
Honestly, I feel that there has to be more separation between Chantry law and government law. It won't happen in DA (at least, not at this point in time), but it's still something to work towards. The Chantry is a place of worship, not a government institution, no matter how hard it tries to be one.
Good. Good.
It seems fair to separate the state from religion... is a good thing, but I think I still would have racism and perhaps could even exacerbate, compared roughly with the Jews, whens the elves began to rise, could burst a hate trigger and result in a pogrom. Or not. We are just speculating. But liked the idea of separating the state from religion, it would help the mages also, I suppose.
Merril doesn't really defy the preconceptions of being an elf.
What's controversial about her are actions most people disagree with regardless of race.
Yes and no. While Merrill does possess the dedication towards preserving elven lore and the dedication towards her people, she doesn't have the same general distrust towards outsiders to the point of being very friendly with everyone (even Anders and Fenris who basically treat her like **** most of the time) and she's always a bit awkward. Most Dalish don't approve of using blood magic, but she uses it freely (though, tbf, she herself says that she only used it because it was the only way she had to cleanse the pieces of the eluvian).
Here is my question for you all: How to solve the issue of elves in Dragon Age? Of course, let's be consistent and not come out and say that they would get an army and exterminate humans.
My first DAI playthrough actually ended with a lot of promise in that regard. There is some war table stuff that can either have really bad or really good implications with Elf/Human relations and I landed on the really good side.
Spoiler
Leliana ended up as Divine and her interpretation of the faith borders on Unitarian, which would bode well for any non-orthadox/non-human group in Thedas. A Dalish Elf leads the most powerful non-nation force in the Thedas, and the Chantry all but owes its continued existence to her. I'd say there are reasons to be optimistic in that particular world-state.
Anyway, I'm a believer in compromise and live and let live. I don't think that any group subjugating another group will ever end well.
It seems fair to separate the state from religion... is a good thing, but I think I still would have racism and perhaps could even exacerbate, compared roughly with the Jews, whens the elves began to rise, could burst a hate trigger and result in a pogrom. Or not. We are just speculating. But liked the idea of separating the state from religion, it would help the mages also, I suppose.
Hence why it has to be a cultural change amongst the humans for the most part. It'd take a while, yeah, but trying to force it on everyone is just going to result in more problems.
I don't like Sera all that much, but it's mostly due to the fact that she so easily dismisses opposing opinions as 'stupid' without even thinking. She does make quite a few good points, but the fact that she refuses to try and understand why people think differently than her is a serious hang-up for me. I'm on the fence about how I feel about her as a person, but as a character, I don't really like her at all. Which is saying something, considering how I don't like Vivienne as a person at all, yet I really like her as a character.
Anyway, I don't think we should talk about Sera vs. other elves anymore lest this thread fall apart due to it.
No, it really doesn't. She's a child and a nasty one at that. Her hatred of her own identity is really sad.
...
If they don't learn the lessons of the past, they'll just make the same mistakes again. And no, I don't think it's bad that the Dalish want to preserve their own traditions rather than assimilating. Even if imperfect, their traditions are their own, not dictated by the dominant culture. If the Dalish are too arrogant, the city elves are too complacent.
I'm afraid I may have posted my opinion on the Dalish in the wrong place, and I don't want to be a disturbance so, still unconvinced, I could argue this at length, and if you guys like you could maybe start a new thread about it and I'll rant in it for pages, so I shall. I'll keep an eye out.
I'm afraid I may have posted my opinion on the Dalish in the wrong place, and I don't want to be a disturbance so, still unconvinced, I could argue this at length, and if you guys like you could maybe start a new thread about it and I'll rant in it for pages, so I shall. I'll keep an eye out.
It's alright, your opinion is a valid one. If it wasn't, I'm pretty sure you'd have gotten a more... unfriendly response.
My first DAI playthrough actually ended with a lot of promise in that regard. There is some war table stuff that can either have really bad or really good implications with Elf/Human relations and I landed on the really good side.
Spoiler
Leliana ended up as Divine and her interpretation of the faith borders on Unitarian, which would bode well for any non-orthadox/non-human group in Thedas. A Dalish Elf leads the most powerful non-nation force in the Thedas, and the Chantry all but owes its continued existence to her. I'd say there are reasons to be optimistic in that particular world-state.
Anyway, I'm a believer in compromise and live and let live. I don't think that any group subjugating another group will ever end well.
This is a fact, but we can control the situation. Religious barrier and culture serve to both sides and unfortunately is what most often causes the conflict. And in this regard, I am in favor of not destroying the elven culture for... ''peace''
Hence why it has to be a cultural change amongst the humans for the most part. It'd take a while, yeah, but trying to force it on everyone is just going to result in more problems.
Yes, it has to be natural. It has that movie... a racist white guy goes to jail and there he lives with a black guy and ceases to be a Nazi. The coexistence made him understand that people are no different regardless of color. But when a closed group did not want to be open, this creates prejudice.
Yes and no. While Merrill does possess the dedication towards preserving elven lore and the dedication towards her people, she doesn't have the same general distrust towards outsiders to the point of being very friendly with everyone (even Anders and Fenris who basically treat her like **** most of the time) and she's always a bit awkward. Most Dalish don't approve of using blood magic, but she uses it freely (though, tbf, she herself says that she only used it because it was the only way she had to cleanse the pieces of the eluvian).
She definitely is an atypical Dalish elf.
People from everywhere are against blood magic. It's not specific to the Dalish.
Fenris doesn't go out of his way to put anyone down. He's just very serious, which comes off as rude.
Anders... I think he and Merril would've gotten along much better if she would admit just once that blood magic and demon pacts are wrong. But no, she never says "I'd never do it again". Her response is always "It's no big deal".
And honestly, what she said after he almost lost control and killed someone was a much lower blow. " All spirits are dangerous, I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't".
That was horribly cold, considering what he'd just gone through.
Another good example of how Merril isn't the sweetheart who can do no wrong is this party banter, at 2:30.
Aveline tries asking the same question three times, and in the third attempt she put it in the most simple way possible. Not even 'naive' Merril could get it wrong.
At that point, it was clear she was using sarcasm to dodge a subject she doesn't like.
People from everywhere are against blood magic. It's not specific to the Dalish.
Fenris doesn't go out of his way to put anyone down. He's just very serious, which comes off as rude.
Anders... I think he and Merril would've gotten along much better if she would admit just once that blood magic and demon pacts are wrong. But no, she never says "I'd never do it again". Her response is always "It's no big deal".
And honestly, what she said after he almost lost control and killed someone was a much lower blow. " All spirits are dangerous, I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't".
That was horribly cold, considering what he'd just gone through.
I think, it even out Anders trying to force his Human-Andrastian-Cirlce views onto Merrill. "Maybe you don't really understand the difference between Sprits and Demons." "Did I ask you?"
I think, it even out Anders trying to force his Human-Andrastian-Cirlce views onto Merrill. "Maybe you don't really understand the difference between Sprits and Demons." "Did I ask you?"
I wouldn't compare that to kicking a man while he's down after one of his worst experiences.
I just realized that the Dalish don't make much sense. I hope this doesn't sound rude or anything, but hear me out. The Dalish's main goal is to create or find a homeland of their own, right? So to do this they divide them themselves into countless tribes of nomads that are spread out across Thedas and rarely interact with each other.
Strange, but I could understand why this would happen immediately after the Fall of the Dales since the Dalish probably didn't want to easily tracked by conquering humans on account of having large numbers. So division into smaller groups would make sense. But the Dales fell hundreds of years ago and the Dalish are still in these nomadic tribes with only a small semi-permanent community in Rivain as the closest example of them reestablishing a civilization of any kind.
Now, you could argue that the Dalish are still worried about humans attacking them if they attempt to group together again, which makes sense but also creates another problem. Thedas is dominated by humans and the Dalish seem to have the washed their hands of the possibility that the humans will ever change their ways and accept them. They barely interact with them and they have no political or legal presence in almost any human kingdom. Thus, when do cross paths with humans they can be killed with impunity. If that's the case then why continue to travel in human lands and suffer their abuses? Wouldn't the Dalish of come to the conclusion that they were better off leaving human-controlled Thedas and instead decide to pull a mass exodus and run off to the Donarks, the Arbor Wilds or the Tirashan Forest? I guess they want to stay so that they can continue to understand their past through studying elven ruins, but by doing so their neglecting their future. They are a dying culture after all and that probably has to do with staying on continent full of people who want to kill you. The problem as to why they'll never decided to do the exodus thing is probably relates back to them being a bunch of nomads with no known network of mass communication and the one time they do seem to get together during the Arlathven they argue and decide they prefer their isolation.
It just seems to me that either by intention or bad luck they've managed to shape themselves into a people that are incapable of achieving their goals or even creating a long-term plan without a divine miracle to help them out. (Solas to the rescue)
Here is my question for you all: How to solve the issue of elves in Dragon Age? Of course, let's be consistent and not come out and say that they would get an army and exterminate humans.
I'd say the elves need a new homeland, one that is not dominated by either the Dalish or City Elf faction, but shared by them both, where they might worship the Maker or the Creators as they wish alongside one another.
I don't believe it is possible to change mainstream human culture in such a way as to allow elves to live among them as equals. Not in the short term. it would require centuries. Centuries the elves cannot afford.
How they would claim the territory for such a land is a different matter. The Dales would be easiest. As there is already an elven majority in that territory, and they have a claim to it. If a liberal divine could be persuaded then Orlais might be forced to cede it. Else the Dalish might reclaim it by force.
People from everywhere are against blood magic. It's not specific to the Dalish.
I never said it was. Also: Tevinter isn't against blood magic on a cultural level (at least, not what the Chantry considers to be blood magic). As far as I know, the Qun has no real opinion on blood magic in and of itself.
Fenris doesn't go out of his way to put anyone down. He's just very serious, which comes off as rude.
I know, but he still treats Merrill like **** regardless. The only person he treats worse than Merrill is Anders, and for both, his core reasoning is that he doesn't like mages.
Anders... I think he and Merril would've gotten along much better if she would admit just once that blood magic and demon pacts are wrong. But no, she never says "I'd never do it again". Her response is always "It's no big deal".
This is more of a conflict of opinion rather than an issue of right or wrong. Blood magic is magic just like a hammer is a tool. Both can kill, but they aren't necessarily meant to do that.
And honestly, what she said after he almost lost control and killed someone was a much lower blow. " All spirits are dangerous, I understood that. I'm sorry you didn't".
That was horribly cold, considering what he'd just gone through.
Merrill does feel sympathy for Anders, but the feeling isn't mutual. In Merrill's Act II quest, after Pol dies, he basically calls her a monster for using blood magic (mind you, she hasn't once used it on anyone). In her Act III quest, after Marethari dies, Anders says, "That was the most noble thing I've ever seen. The world is lesser for having you (Merrill) in it instead of her." Anders holds no sympathy for Merrill, otherwise he wouldn't have said those things when he did. If Merrill is horribly cold for that quote alone, Anders is worse than Cory.
Another good example of how Merril isn't the sweet pie who can do no wrong is this party banter, at 2:30.
Aveline tries asking the same question three times, and in the third attempt she put it in the most simple way possible. Not even 'naive' Merril could get it wrong.
At that point, it was clear she was using sarcasm to dodge a subject she doesn't like.
First, I never said anything along those lines. I have no idea where you're getting that from.
Second, as far as Merrill knows, the eluvian can't hurt anyone, especially when it's inert (which it is for basically the entirety of the game). Plus, the eluvian isn't what killed Tamlen and (possibly) Mahariel. That was the blight, and the blight can spread fairly easily. Why so many people forget this is beyond me.
As for her tone, I personally think she was semi-serious with her answers. If the eluvian was dangerous, it would've harmed Merrill in some way. On its own, the eluvian is fairly harmless, which, I think, is the point she was trying to get across.
Also, she knows that spirits and demons are all dangerous. If she didn't, she wouldn't have asked for Hawke to go with her in her Act III quest to kill her should the demon that she was communicating with possess her. She knew what she was doing, and the dangers of it, regardless of what most people believe. If she didn't know what she was doing, she would've gone to Sundermount alone and died either via possession or by trying to kill the demon.
I'd say the elves need a new homeland, one that is not dominated by either the Dalish or City Elf faction, but shared by them both, where they might worship the Maker or the Creators as they wish alongside one another.
I don't believe it is possible to change mainstream human culture in such a way as to allow elves to live among them as equals. Not in the short term. it would require centuries. Centuries the elves cannot afford.
How they would claim the territory for such a land is a different matter. The Dales would be easiest. As there is already an elven majority in that territory, and they have a claim to it. If a liberal divine could be persuaded then Orlais might be forced to cede it. Else the Dalish might reclaim it by force.
In my opinion this could create a new Israel and that region is troubled. Without comparing , I think it would be problematic. Unless they have some power to safeguard the lives of the country or even the Chantry. Still, the people who will be there , humans, I do not know if they will want to relocate and relocate means: cultural barrier. The elves are driving the human and claiming the land just for them. And even if they stay there, they can twist the nose to elves, hence you can tell me how humans will act to...a governed by the elves?
In my opinion this could create a new Israel and that region is troubled. Without comparing , I think it would be problematic. Unless they have some power to safeguard the lives of the country or even the Chantry. Still, the people who will be there , humans, I do not know if they will want to relocate and relocate means: cultural barrier. The elves are driving the human and claiming the land just for them. And even if they stay there, they can twist the nose to elves, hence you can tell me how humans will act to...a governed by the elves?
I don't think humans should be governed by elves, nor elves by humans. If the elves claim a homeland, which I think they must, then humans in that new land must be driven out. It's not pretty. But it would prevent internal conflict at least. As for creating something simmilar to Israel, that would depend on how they behave to their neighbors. Orlais wouldn't be pleased. But alliances with Ferelden and Nevarra would be possible I think. Both of them would like a weakened Orlais I think. Ferelden especially would be delighted to no longer share a border with those painted fops.
I'd say the elves need a new homeland, one that is not dominated by either the Dalish or City Elf faction, but shared by them both, where they might worship the Maker or the Creators as they wish alongside one another.
I don't believe it is possible to change mainstream human culture in such a way as to allow elves to live among them as equals. Not in the short term. it would require centuries. Centuries the elves cannot afford.
How they would claim the territory for such a land is a different matter. The Dales would be easiest. As there is already an elven majority in that territory, and they have a claim to it. If a liberal divine could be persuaded then Orlais might be forced to cede it. Else the Dalish might reclaim it by force.
Having a shared space would be ideal in theory, but it probably wouldn't work out so well in practice without integration on both sides.
We know from the City Elf Origin, Pol, and even a city elf's codex on city elves that the city elves are just as prejudiced against elves leaving alienags, calling them flat ears as well as abandoning what it means to be elven, and many see Dalish as nothing more than a myth or mindless savages because they were taught to believe such by the Chantry. On the Dalish end, they pity the city elves, may even look down on them because from the Dalish's point of view, it is the City Elves who have abandoned what it means to be elven by embracing the human religion and allowing themselves to be ruled by humans and live as second-class citizens.
Sure, city elves would have the experience with building buildings and setting up permanent residences and the dalish would have the lore and hunting skills, but both sides have to get over themselves as a cultural group before I can see them intermingling without much conflict, especially in the area of religion.
I don't think humans should be governed by elves, nor elves by humans. If the elves claim a homeland, which I think they must, then humans in that new land must be driven out. It's not pretty. But it would prevent internal conflict at least. As for creating something simmilar to Israel, that would depend on how they behave to their neighbors. Orlais wouldn't be pleased. But alliances with Ferelden and Nevarra would be possible I think. Both of them would like a weakened Orlais I think. Ferelden especially would be delighted to no longer share a border with those painted fops.
There is one area where there isn't any real racism, as far as its own members go, and is probably the most fair out of all societies, although it's also one of the most controversial ones. The Qun.
Zevran: Is it true that in Qunari lands, elves rule?
Sten: Some of them.
Zevran: Really? And how are they chosen?
Sten: The tamrassan's evaluate you and your skills and decide where you are most fit to serve.
Zevran: And so elves rule over humans?
Sten: Some of them.
Zevran: And we're back at the beginning. It's like talking to a water-wheel.
I don't think humans should be governed by elves, nor elves by humans. If the elves claim a homeland, which I think they must, then humans in that new land must be driven out. It's not pretty. But it would prevent internal conflict at least. As for creating something simmilar to Israel, that would depend on how they behave to their neighbors. Orlais wouldn't be pleased. But alliances with Ferelden and Nevarra would be possible I think. Both of them would like a weakened Orlais I think. Ferelden especially would be delighted to no longer share a border with those painted fops.
We should probably all admit three things at this point in the conversation: 1) the viability of human and elf coexistence is largely dependent on how one has played the game (or told the story) for the past three games. 2) The writer's of the game have set a precedent for both co-existence and prolonged antagonism (I'm not going to get into the specifics so as to avoid spoilers) and probably have vested interest in keeping that future hazy since it allows for more tension in dramatic storytelling. 3) Given 1 and 2, these are typically the types of conversations where head cannon starts to creep into the argument.
Be that as it may, given game information through what we have so far, I'd say a Alistair ruled Ferelden saved by either a Dalish or Elven Warden who saved Shianni has a decent chance of making a human/elf coalition work. Depending on how a certain quest works out, there is some precedent for this in the Free Marches as well. Orlais seems like a far away dream for elf and human co-existence because the wounds are too fresh and deep on both sides, and because Orlais has deeper infatuation with the trappings of nobility. Of course, all of these potential relationships would be greatly impacted by the new Divine, since religion was a major sources of the first schism. So, some this depends on the world state, but I'm not prepared to say two groups cannot co-exist together in a non-antagonistic way.
We should probably all admit three things at this point in the conversation: 1) the viability of human and elf coexistence is largely dependent on how one has played the game (or told the story) for the past three games. 2) The writer's of the game have set a precedent for both co-existence and prolonged antagonism (I'm not going to get into the specifics so as to avoid spoilers) and probably have vested interest in keeping that future hazy since it allows for more tension in dramatic storytelling. 3) Given 1 and 2, these are typically the types of conversations where head cannon starts to creep into the argument.
Be that as it may, given game information through what we have so far, I'd say a Alistair ruled Ferelden saved by either a Dalish or Elven Warden who saved Shianni has a decent chance of making a human/elf coalition work. Depending on how a certain quest works out, there is some precedent for this in the Free Marches as well. Orlais seems like a far away dream for elf and human co-existence because the wounds are too fresh and deep on both sides, and because Orlais has deeper infatuation with the trappings of nobility. Of course, all of these potential relationships would be greatly impacted by the new Divine, since religion was a major sources of the first schism. So, some this depends on the world state, but I'm not prepared to say two groups cannot co-exist together in a non-antagonistic way.
I think if there is a place for only the elves, as I said before, they going to need someone to care for them, the Chantry or another country that can guarantee military assistance. When the elves can have a military force and take care of themself or not, they will need to have good relations with the Chantry to not suffer another mass invasion, then it will happen a war of letters and dance policy. The elves will have to play well this game to ensure that kingdom and officially not propagate xenophobia and racism, officially. The system of government could be equal Tevinter, ensuring human and Chantry participation in the Senate would create some good alliances.
The Orlais elves can migrate to the promised land and the Tevinter flee too. The elves can take care of this refugees, but they will only received militarily aid, Taking care of immigrants is due to their own. That promised land can also invest in trade, some good alliances can achieve military access. Trade between the promised land and a hostile country, can cause embargo and creat a economic problem, can cause war or not.
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@Gamer072196. 
