1602 réponses à ce sujet

[Elfyoth]

'Flat-ears', they call us. That's derogatory. They may be friendly, but they still look down on you with pity and contempt, as if they were your superiors. That's the thing I hate: their smug 'elfier-than-thou' attitude. It would still be wrong even if it were justified, but as it turns out, it isn't even that! Their so-called traditions are garbled nonsense. Their idealised ancestors were slavers and tyrants.

I support the Dalish against human intolerance and abuse, but I hate their attitude. They need to stop looking backward, stop looking down their noses at others, and start working on a way forward, instead of trying uselessly to get back to a thousand years ago. As for Sera, you should get past the Buffy-speak and listen to what she actually says, because it makes a lot of sense.


It's hardly the words of a few, it's an essential part of their philosophy that they're better than you, despite all evidence to the contrary. And which city elves, in DA:O, DA2, or DA:I did you see discriminating against them? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't remember that scene.

You're right that cowering in an alley is no way to live, which is why my Warden and Shianni made it a point to fight back. That is what I mean by 'moving forward'. Never mind what elves did or didn't do a thousand years ago: let us focus on what elves can make of themselves today, as part of the society that they belong to and not the idealised dream of an ancient empire that, as it turns out, wasn't as wonderful as it's been made out to be.

And sure, the mirrors are cool. Doesn't seem to have prevented them from destroying themselves though, so I wouldn't be too proud. They had slaves, served bloodthirsty gods, and had devastating wars among themselves. Is that anything to aspire to get back to?

Dalish call City Elves "flat ears" City Elves calls Dalish "flat ears" thats how it is for elves.

[Addai]

I just realized that the Dalish don't make much sense. I hope this doesn't sound rude or anything, but hear me out. The Dalish's main goal is to create or find a homeland of their own, right? So to do this they divide them themselves into countless tribes of nomads that are spread out across Thedas and rarely interact with each other.

That's survival. If one clan is wiped out, the whole subspecies won't be. Of course that's happening anyway since at least once a game, a clan is being wiped.

 

As for your statement that they should just pick somewhere and settle down, that happened with the Dalish boon in Origins and nothing came of it. The differences between Dalish and southern Thedas lands appear to be irreconcilable. That may change now that the Chantry is declining and their bigotry has a chance to recede.

 

I'm afraid I may have posted my opinion on the Dalish in the wrong place, and I don't want to be a disturbance so, still unconvinced, I could argue this at length, and if you guys like you could maybe start a new thread about it and I'll rant in it for pages, so I shall. I'll keep an eye out.

Okay. I'm not sure what you're ranting about. The Dalish have a right to exist as a subgroup and not assimilate to human culture, and they're not attacking alienages, so who cares what they think about other elves. And my opinion of Sera is based on her extreme immaturity and inability to see other points of view, not whether or not she's right about the Dalish. She's entitled to her opinion, even if she doesn't accord that same right to other people.

[Assassino01]

There is one area where there isn't any real racism, as far as its own members go, and is probably the most fair out of all societies, although it's also one of the most controversial ones. The Qun. 

 

Zevran: Is it true that in Qunari lands, elves rule?

 

Sten: Some of them. 

 

Zevran: Really? And how are they chosen?

 

Sten: The tamrassan's evaluate you and your skills and decide where you are most fit to serve.

 

Zevran: And so elves rule over humans?

 

Sten: Some of them.

 

Zevran: And we're back at the beginning. It's like talking to a water-wheel.

 

Humans and elves are only equal under the Qun because all are equal when they are slaves. The Qun is such an oppressive ideology that it does not allow for petty differences based on race. I would not subject anyone to that lack of freedom. Better to live in walled of alienages in that case. 

 

We should probably all admit three things at this point in the conversation: 1) the viability of human and elf coexistence is largely dependent on how one has played the game (or told the story) for the past three games. 2) The writer's of the game have set a precedent for both co-existence and prolonged antagonism (I'm not going to get into the specifics so as to avoid spoilers) and probably have vested interest in keeping that future hazy since it allows for more tension in dramatic storytelling. 3) Given 1 and 2, these are typically the types of conversations where head cannon starts to creep into the argument.

 

Be that as it may, given game information through what we have so far, I'd say a Alistair ruled Ferelden saved by either a Dalish or Elven Warden who saved Shianni has a decent chance of making a human/elf coalition work. Depending on how a certain quest works out, there is some precedent for this in the Free Marches as well.  Orlais seems like a far away dream for elf and human co-existence because the wounds are too fresh and deep on both sides, and because Orlais has deeper infatuation with the trappings of nobility.  Of course, all of these potential relationships would be greatly impacted by the new Divine, since religion was a major sources of the first schism.  So, some this depends on the world state, but I'm not prepared to say two groups cannot co-exist together in a non-antagonistic way.

 

Given that the Dalish boon, or the boon given to city elves seem not to have improved the situation any, despite Alistair's good intentions seems to strenghten my point that humans and elves cannot co exist as it is currently. Centuries of cultural and religious discrimination against the elven population is simply too entrenched in the average Thedosian mind. The only way the elves can get the recognition and respect they need and deserve in order to preserve themselves as a people is by having a nation-state to call their own.

Yes there will be conflicts within such a nation-state. What shall be the dominant religion? (Probably the cult of the Maker given that most elves are Andrastians), who shall rule the nation (Most likely the Dalish initially as they would logically form the backbone of any army a new nation creates), what shall be their stance on magic, and so forth. But I believe it possible, and I believe it to be the best solution for the elves to move forward. 

[Addai]

 

Given that the Dalish boon, or the boon given to city elves seem not to have improved the situation any, despite Alistair's good intentions seems to strenghten my point that humans and elves cannot co exist as it is currently. Centuries of cultural and religious discrimination against the elven population is simply too entrenched in the average Thedosian mind. The only way the elves can get the recognition and respect they need and deserve in order to preserve themselves as a people is by having a nation-state to call their own.

Yes there will be conflicts within such a nation-state. What shall be the dominant religion? (Probably the cult of the Maker given that most elves are Andrastians), who shall rule the nation (Most likely the Dalish initially as they would logically form the backbone of any army a new nation creates), what shall be their stance on magic, and so forth. But I believe it possible, and I believe it to be the best solution for the elves to move forward. 

This will not just happen on its own, though. I mean, maybe it will, because the Bioware writers might want to write a progressive utopia where just having the right social policy and someone of goodwill in charge will overcome all problems. But that will be cheesy and unrealistic if they do it. History tells us that good neighbors are made by tall fences and big guns. The only way the elves gain the right to survive is if they get a gun big enough that they can point it at the humans' head and both will know that if one pulls the trigger, they die. That can really only happen by uncovering the ancient elven technology. After that, we can talk about peaceful cooperation and pluralism and religious syncretism and all that.

[Patchwork]

The only viable option at this point does seem to be a fully powered up Solas simply declaring that X land now belongs to the elves. 

 

I'm not convinced it has to be the Dales, it's been in human hands longer than it was in elven and strategically not only is it landlocked it puts them right between Orlais and Ferelden two countries who have no reason to simply allow the knife-ears to get away with such a thing. Plus Orlais loses a lot of good farmland which isn't going to make them happy.

[MoonDrummer]

The only viable option at this point does seem to be a fully powered up Solas simply declaring that X land now belongs to the elves. 

 

I'm not convinced it has to be the Dales, it's been in human hands longer than it was in elven and strategically not only is it landlocked it puts them right between Orlais and Ferelden two countries who have no reason to simply allow the knife-ears to get away with such a thing. Plus Orlais loses a lot of good farmland which isn't going to make them happy.

Ferelden would probably be alright with having a buffer between Orlais, and Halamshiral is the only city that has an Elven majority, so its the best place for them to set up imo.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That's survival. If one clan is wiped out, the whole subspecies won't be. Of course that's happening anyway since at least once a game, a clan is being wiped.

 

As for your statement that they should just pick somewhere and settle down, that happened with the Dalish boon in Origins and nothing came of it. The differences between Dalish and southern Thedas lands appear to be irreconcilable. That may change now that the Chantry is declining and their bigotry has a chance to recede.

 

It's short term survival that may have made sense right after the fall of the Dales, but continuing to live that way has resulted in them nearly reaching extinction. My point was that they need to stop if hope to ever actually find a new home.

 

As for the Dalish boon, that right there is another problem, the Dalish as a people didn't plan on receiving it from Ferelden. It was only fortunate happenstance that they got it because of a Elf Warden and as you mentioned they lost it pretty quickly because of human prejudice which goes back to my point that they should just leave Thedas and make a new homeland of their own terms.

 

Why wait several ages for the humans to change when they could actually be proactive and leave altogether? 

[Addai]

It's short term survival that may have made sense right after the fall of the Dales, but continuing to live that way has resulted in them nearly reaching extinction. My point was that they need to stop if hope to ever actually find a new home.
 
As for the Dalish boon, that right there is another problem, the Dalish as a people didn't plan on receiving it from Ferelden. It was only fortunate happenstance that they got it because of a Elf Warden and as you mentioned they lost it pretty quickly because of human prejudice which goes back to my point that they should just leave Thedas and make a new homeland of their own terms.
 
Why wait several ages for the humans to change when they could actually be proactive and leave altogether?

Leave to go where? For one thing, the Dalish are now in scattered clans. They'd need a powerful leader and a powerful reason to overcome that and unify. Then how do you know wherever they go won't be worse?

[MoonDrummer]

It's short term survival that may have made sense right after the fall of the Dales, but continuing to live that way has resulted in them nearly reaching extinction. My point was that they need to stop if hope to ever actually find a new home.

 

As for the Dalish boon, that right there is another problem, the Dalish as a people didn't plan on receiving it from Ferelden. It was only fortunate happenstance that they got it because of a Elf Warden and as you mentioned they lost it pretty quickly because of human prejudice which goes back to my point that they should just leave Thedas and make a new homeland of their own terms.

 

Why wait several ages for the humans to change when they could actually be proactive and leave altogether? 

Just pack up and leave, wandering into god knows where? They would have to travel either by sea, through a swamp, or through a desert. That sounds like a terrible plan.

[Patchwork]

Ferelden would probably be alright with having a buffer between Orlais, and Halamshiral is the only city that has an Elven majority, so its the best place for them to set up imo.

 

I think Alistair and/or Anora would be okay with the elves re-creating a homeland in the Dales but like with the Hinterlands boon prejudice and politics would force them to act. If the elves have a homeland again then the cheap labour that both countries rely on is suddenly is well not gone but rarer? More expensive? The CE suddenly have an option they didn't have before. 

 

And there would be the fear that the elves would want reprisal for the treatment they've suffered since the Fall of the Dales. 

 

Buildings are just stone and mortar what the elves really need is a place where they can be safe, prosper and learn how to be a people again. 

[Red of Rivia]

Leave to go where? For one thing, the Dalish are now in scattered clans. They'd need a powerful leader and a powerful reason to overcome that and unify. Then how do you know wherever they go won't be worse?

A great leader can unify the tribes, but still does not mean that they will have their own state. Orlais will not give them Dales, this we know, and the Chantry also not ( I suppose). Even if it is in the Dales, is much more dangerous than anywhere else, are close to one of the most hostile places, I do not know if Ferelden would buy a fight in that region and I do not know how much Ferelden can afford in case of war if something to happen. The only hope I see is the Chantry that may hold any country in the south, but they would have a very big influence in this state at a cost,can be the reduction of gods worship or direct participation in government, or worse, both.

[MoonDrummer]

I think Alistair and/or Anora would be okay with the elves re-creating a homeland in the Dales but like with the Hinterlands boon prejudice and politics would force them to act. If the elves have a homeland again then the cheap labour that both countries rely on is suddenly is well not gone but rarer? More expensive? The CE suddenly have an option they didn't have before. 

 

And there would be the fear that the elves would want reprisal for the treatment they've suffered since the Fall of the Dales. 

 

Buildings are just stone and mortar what the elves really need is a place where they can be safe, prosper and learn how to be a people again. 

I see the point your making, but I think Ferelden would jump at the chance to have a nation, and a mountain in between them and Orlais, yeah people would grumble about it, I'm certain, but I think the nobility would see the benefit. Even with Celene on the throne, there are a lot of orlesians left, who see Ferelden as a juicy prize, who's to say her successor wont be another Gaspard?

 

In saying all that, I don't think we will see an elven nation, at all really. 

[Babelas]

I think Alistair and/or Anora would be okay with the elves re-creating a homeland in the Dales but like with the Hinterlands boon prejudice and politics would force them to act. If the elves have a homeland again then the cheap labour that both countries rely on is suddenly is well not gone but rarer? More expensive? The CE suddenly have an option they didn't have before. 

 

And there would be the fear that the elves would want reprisal for the treatment they've suffered since the Fall of the Dales. 

 

Buildings are just stone and mortar what the elves really need is a place where they can be safe, prosper and learn how to be a people again. 

Don't many Orlesians have holiday homes in the Dales? I don't see them giving their property to elves. But I do agree that they need a place where they can be safe and preferably far away from human settlements. Josephine mentioned the rest of the world and asking if anyone was curious about it. Perhaps there is land that is unoccupied. 

[Dorrieb]

Okay. I'm not sure what you're ranting about. The Dalish have a right to exist as a subgroup and not assimilate to human culture, and they're not attacking alienages, so who cares what they think about other elves. And my opinion of Sera is based on her extreme immaturity and inability to see other points of view, not whether or not she's right about the Dalish. She's entitled to her opinion, even if she doesn't accord that same right to other people.

 

Fine, I'll explain. Sure, they have a right not to assimilate, but it is in their best interests to do so. I have a right to go and live in a cave if I want to, as my ancestors did, but I'm better off in a nice modern house, and not holding on to that particular aspect of my 'old culture'. It made sense back then, because for those people it was the best option available, but to do it now would be to willfuly cling to an outdated concept against my own well-being for no reason other than that it has 'ever been thus', or in other words: tradition.

 

If you're a fan of the late and great Terry Pratchett, I recommend you read his book 'Nation'.

 

Also, I'm not sure that anyone has a 'right' to consider themselves superior to anyone else. In any case, it isn't conducive to mutual aid and progress.

 

And about Sera: sure, she has emotional issues, but she instinctively grasps some very remarkable concepts: She insists that 'people are people', i.e., she defines people by who they are, and not by which race they belong to. She also refuses to define herself as an 'elf' and rejects the weight of expectations that come with that, and she's right. If we are defined by our choices, being born an elf or a dwarf is not a choice, but an accident of birth. She has absolutely no patience with the notion of traditions that don't make people's lives better and in fact make them worse, and again, she's right. Have the Dalish made their lives any better by refusing to integrate? No. Wouldn't it be better to work toward a new human/elven society integrating the best of both?

 

It would mean the loss of the old elven culture, but a ) that culture is already lost, b ) it was an ancient culture that has served its purpose, but is now outdated, and  c ) it seems not to have been a very nice culture to begin with, what with all the slavery and tyranny.

 

Actually, the Dalish are a lot like Tevinter's Venatori, trying to recapture an idealised past that they barely understand and wouldn't like even if they could succeed.

 

One more thing. I've offered to leave this thread and I'll repeat it: I don't want to be a disturbance. If this isn't the right place for this argument, let's start a new thread somewhere else. Or if everyone is okay with it, then fine.

[MoonDrummer]

Fine, I'll explain. Sure, they have a right not to assimilate, but it is in their best interests to do so. I have a right to go and live in a cave if I want to, as my ancestors did, but I'm better off in a nice modern house, and not holding on to that particular aspect of my 'old culture'. It made sense back then, because for those people it was the best option available, but to do it now would be to willfuly cling to an outdated concept against my own well-being for no reason other than that it has 'ever been thus', or in other words: tradition.

Yes, but in the case of Elves its kind of the other way round. Elves are now either living in slums, or homeless wanderers, whereas their ancestors lived in floating crystal cloud cities. It seems reasonable to try and recover the lifestyle of floating-crystal-cloud-city elves, because they are certainly not better off in their modern situation.

[Bad King]

Fine, I'll explain. Sure, they have a right not to assimilate, but it is in their best interests to do so. I have a right to go and live in a cave if I want to, as my ancestors did, but I'm better off in a nice modern house, and not holding on to that particular aspect of my 'old culture'. It made sense back then, because for those people it was the best option available, but to do it now would be to willfuly cling to an outdated concept against my own well-being for no reason other than that it has 'ever been thus', or in other words: tradition.

 

A large flaw in your argument is that you assume that elven culture is 'out-dated' simply because it is old, and yet we've seen that the ancient elves were capable of many feats and innovations that have not been seen since. Your cave metaphor doesn't work in this respect because the 'modern' alternative to the Dalish way of life would be living in an alienage. Living in a free, egalitarian tribe that has a strong sense of identity is surely preferable to the lives that most city elves live. Sera is an exception in this regard as she had a privileged upbringing unlike the vast majority of city elves.

[Addai]

Wouldn't it be better to work toward a new human/elven society integrating the best of both?

One question. Well, one and a half. What are the humans going to give up in this arrangement, and who's going to make them?

[Assassino01]

This will not just happen on its own, though. I mean, maybe it will, because the Bioware writers might want to write a progressive utopia where just having the right social policy and someone of goodwill in charge will overcome all problems. But that will be cheesy and unrealistic if they do it. History tells us that good neighbors are made by tall fences and big guns. The only way the elves gain the right to survive is if they get a gun big enough that they can point it at the humans' head and both will know that if one pulls the trigger, they die. That can really only happen by uncovering the ancient elven technology. After that, we can talk about peaceful cooperation and pluralism and religious syncretism and all that.

 

An elven state does not have to be a utopia. A sufficiently weakened Orlais (perhaps after a failed exhalted march, or a war with the Qun, or a Blight) would be in a position where it might be made to give the Dales away, especially if the request (read: demand) is made with the backing of the Chantry or the Inquisition. If nothing else the Dalish seem to possess the ability to gather an army fairly quickly, should they put their mind to it.

 

Yes, and elven state would need to be strong. And if we are to take anything from the Dales of the past they might very well be. Orlais and the Chantry only defeated them after a decade of war after all. That was before there was a Ferelden and a Nevarra cheering any enemy of Orlais on.

 

I also doubt Ferelden actually has the military capacity to invade anyone across the Frostbacks. 

 

 

The only viable option at this point does seem to be a fully powered up Solas simply declaring that X land now belongs to the elves. 

 

I'm not convinced it has to be the Dales, it's been in human hands longer than it was in elven and strategically not only is it landlocked it puts them right between Orlais and Ferelden two countries who have no reason to simply allow the knife-ears to get away with such a thing. Plus Orlais loses a lot of good farmland which isn't going to make them happy.

 

Ferelden would be more than happy to have a decent military power between it an Orlais I think. Also, the place is full of elves. The Orleasian nobility may cry about lost estates for a bit. But it would be the easiest and most acceptable option for a new elven homeland I think. 

[Dorrieb]

Yes, but in the case of Elves its kind of the other way round. Elves are now either living in slums, or homeless wanderers, whereas their ancestors lived in floating crystal cloud cities. It seems reasonable to try and recover the lifestyle of floating-crystal-cloud-city elves, because they are certainly not better off in their modern situation.

 

Yes, but what Solas forgot to mention was that those floaty crystal Enya album covers were achieved by a handful of extremely powerful individuals/gods/whatever who were apparently quite mad and only for their own benefit, while enslaving much of the population and waging wars of annihilation for their own amusement. Would you rather be a slave in a floaty crystal cloud, or a free person in a nice warm tavern? By all means, research the old technology, but let the old culture go.

 

A large flaw in your argument is that you assume that elven culture is 'out-dated' simply because it is old, and yet we've seen that the ancient elves were capable of many feats and innovations that have not been seen since. Your cave metaphor doesn't work in this respect because the 'modern' alternative to the Dalish way of life would be living in an alienage. Living in a free, egalitarian tribe that has a strong sense of identity is surely preferable to the lives that most city elves live. Sera is an exception in this regard as she had a privileged upbringing unlike the vast majority of city elves.

 

I'm not suggesting that city elves should be happy living in alienages. I'm saying that they should fight for equal rights within modern Thedan society, instead of hanging on to an idealised past.

[Steelcan]

yes because Orlesian nobles would abandon their lands..

[Dorrieb]

One question. Well, one and a half. What are the humans going to give up in this arrangement, and who's going to make them?

 

Shianni! And my Warden. And like-minded elves and humans (and possibly surface dwarves) invested in social justice. Peacefully if possible, but I'd expect a few clashes. As for what the humans would be giving up: privilege.

[Red of Rivia]

yes because Orlesian nobles would abandon their lands..

True enough, this would only happen by force.

[MoonDrummer]

An elven state does not have to be a utopia. A sufficiently weakened Orlais (perhaps after a failed exhalted march, or a war with the Qun, or a Blight) would be in a position where it might be made to give the Dales away, especially if the request (read: demand) is made with the backing of the Chantry or the Inquisition. If nothing else the Dalish seem to possess the ability to gather an army fairly quickly, should they put their mind to it.

 

Yes, and elven state would need to be strong. And if we are to take anything from the Dales of the past they might very well be. Orlais and the Chantry only defeated them after a decade of war after all. That was before there was a Ferelden and a Nevarra cheering any enemy of Orlais on.

 

I also doubt Ferelden actually has the military capacity to invade anyone across the Frostbacks. 

 

 

 

Ferelden would be more than happy to have a decent military power between it an Orlais I think. Also, the place is full of elves. The Orleasian nobility may cry about lost estates for a bit. But it would be the easiest and most acceptable option for a new elven homeland I think. 

Orlais was able to destroy the Dales after being weakened by a blight, single-handed apparently. Despite the Dales being unaffected by said blight (also apparently) and having already occupied all of Orlais' major cities. So I doubt it. 

[Addai]

Shianni! And my Warden. And like-minded elves and humans (and possibly surface dwarves) invested in social justice. Peacefully if possible, but I'd expect a few clashes. As for what the humans would be giving up: privilege.

Shianni can't even manage one alienage without riots, and in some epilogues is murdered by an anti-elf bigot.

Who's going to bring this rainbow coalition of social justice activists together, and again, how are humans going to be forced to give up their wealth and power to a hated minority? Why would dwarves or humans lift a finger against their self-interest?

I'm sorry, you're kind of farting rainbows here. It all sounds very nice, but isn't realistic.

[Red of Rivia]

Shianni can't even manage one alienage without riots, and in some epilogues is murdered by an anti-elf bigot.

Who's going to bring this rainbow coalition of social justice activists together, and again, how are humans going to be forced to give up their wealth and power to a hated minority? Why would dwarves or humans lift a finger against their self-interest?

I'm sorry, you're kind of farting rainbows here. It all sounds very nice, but isn't realistic.

Everyone is dreaming high, not only you.