1602 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorrieb]

Shianni can't even manage one alienage without riots, and in some epilogues is murdered by an anti-elf bigot.

Who's going to bring this rainbow coalition of social justice activists together, and again, how are humans going to be forced to give up their wealth and power to a hated minority? Why would dwarves or humans lift a finger against their self-interest?

I'm sorry, you're kind of farting rainbows here. It all sounds very nice, but isn't realistic.

 

I didn't say it would be easy. And since analogous movements have taken place in the actual real world that we live in, I wouldn't call it unrealistic.

 

There is this thing called 'ethics' that motivates some people beyond their own short-term gain. Also, some dwarves and humans would be smart enough to recognise that in the long run, this would benefit everyone, and not just the elves.

[Addai]

I didn't say it would be easy. And since analogous movements have taken place in the actual real world that we live in, I wouldn't call it unrealistic.
 
There is this thing called 'ethics' that motivates some people beyond their own short-term gain. Also, some dwarves and humans would be smart enough to recognise that in the long run, this would benefit everyone, and not just the elves.

I take it you mean the Enlightenment and all that. People who look at modern history need to view it through the lens of the oceans of blood on which the modern notion of statehood rests, and realize also how fragile the status quo is. You really don't escape the realities of survival and self-interest. If a country is extremely wealthy, they can fake it for a while, since there's enough to go around that the powerful don't mind if others get a few scraps. But in Thedas, the wealthiest countries are the worst in terms of stratified societies. So, good luck with that.

Like I said up above, Bioware could write it the way you're describing, because the writers might like to put out a progressive utopian fantasy, and the political writing in DA is already pretty weak. So maybe you'll get the story you want to see.

[Bad King]

I'm not suggesting that city elves should be happy living in alienages. I'm saying that they should fight for equal rights within modern Thedan society, instead of hanging on to an idealised past.

 

So elves should all live in alienages and live short and difficult lives for the sole reason that they may stimulate some reform in the distant future (long after they're dead)? In a powerful feudal society in which fear and racism are the norm, it's difficult to envision this happening. Also, it's not like the Dalish are completely incapable of interacting with humans: most clans engage in trade with human settlements and the Lavellan clan even helps the Inquisition save the city of Wycombe from the Venatori and help it rebuild.

[Elfyoth]

So elves should all live in alienages and live short and difficult lives for the sole reason that they may stimulate some reform in the distant future (long after they're dead)? In a powerful feudal society in which fear and racism are the norm, it's difficult to envision this happening. Also, it's not like the Dalish are completely incapable of interacting with humans: most clans engage in trade with human settlements and the Lavellan clan even helps the Inquisition save the city of Wycombe from the Venatori and help it rebuild.

And after the Lavellan clan saves the city, there is a new city council of City Elves the keeper of the Lavellan clan, and human merchants, sounds awsome! 

[Patchwork]

I obviously don't agree about the Dales being the best choice for a new elvhen homeland but I don't want to go in circles about it. 

 

So moving on-

 

Whatever culture the elves had in Arlathan, Tevinter and the Dales is gone and while I do think there's value in learning about the past particularly if it involves powerful magic that can make life better the Dalish and the Alienage elves have new cultures. The Dalish are nomadic hunters- that's who they are now, they live in tents and aravels, vallaslin is part of a coming of age ceremony, their magic and understanding of the Fade is unique, every day is a game of them verses the wilderness and sometimes when circumstances permit they investigate ruins in hopes of learning more about their ancestors. The elves in the Alienage have a less clear cut identity separate from human culture but there's a strong sense of community and practices that belongs solely to them.

 

Good or bad they've changed since the Fall of the Dales, formed new, very different identities so if the two come back together there's going to be as many problems within as without. 

[Dorrieb]

I take it you mean the Enlightenment and all that. People who look at modern history need to view it through the lens of the oceans of blood on which the modern notion of statehood rests, and realize also how fragile the status quo is. You really don't escape the realities of survival and self-interest. If a country is extremely wealthy, they can fake it for a while, since there's enough to go around that the powerful don't mind if others get a few scraps. But in Thedas, the wealthiest countries are the worst in terms of stratified societies. So, good luck with that.

Like I said up above, Bioware could write it the way you're describing, because the writers might like to put out a progressive utopian fantasy, and the political writing in DA is already pretty weak. So maybe you'll get the story you want to see.

 

I was thinking more of the civil rights movement. And history has shown us that survival and self-interest are best served by mutual aid and cooperation. There is even mathematical proof of it. When we work together toward our mutual good we tend to do better than when we try to benefit at each others' expense, and that's not farting rainbows, that's farting maths.

[MoonDrummer]

I was thinking more of the civil rights movement. And history has shown us that survival and self-interest are best served by mutual aid and cooperation. There is even mathematical proof of it. When we work together toward our mutual good we tend to do better than when we try to benefit at each others' expense, and that's not farting rainbows, that's farting maths.

That sounds like a good way to get every alienage in Orlais purged.

[Dorrieb]

So elves should all live in alienages and live short and difficult lives for the sole reason that they may stimulate some reform in the distant future (long after they're dead)? In a powerful feudal society in which fear and racism are the norm, it's difficult to envision this happening. Also, it's not like the Dalish are completely incapable of interacting with humans: most clans engage in trade with human settlements and the Lavellan clan even helps the Inquisition save the city of Wycombe from the Venatori and help it rebuild.

 

They should demand their place in society, not meekly hope to 'stimulate some reform in the distant future'. Fear and racism may be the norm, but it doesn't have to be that way. It will continue to be so only if they don't do anything about it.

[Dorrieb]

That sounds like a good way to get every alienage in Orlais purged.

 

There will be blood, yes. The future is worth it.

 

EDIT: No, that sounds awful. We don't want there to be blood, but we're willing to stand up to it. You can't let the threat of violence repress you.

[MoonDrummer]

There will be blood, yes. The future is worth it.

 

EDIT: No, that sounds awful. We don't want there to be blood, but we're willing to stand up to it. You can't let the threat of violence repress you.

Its not the threat of violance, its actual violance, Celene burnt Halamshiral to the ground the last time alienage Elves demanded justice. 

[Dorrieb]

Its not the threat of violance, its actual violance, Celene burnt Halamshiral to the ground the last time alienage Elves demanded justice. 

 

I get it. Point being, you can't let that stop you.

[MoonDrummer]

I get it. Point being, you can't let that stop you.

Well that's easily said. Whenever someone has locked you and your family inside your house, doused it in oil and put a torch to it, you might have a few regrets. I know I certainly would.

[Bad King]

I was thinking more of the civil rights movement. And history has shown us that survival and self-interest are best served by mutual aid and cooperation. There is even mathematical proof of it. When we work together toward our mutual good we tend to do better than when we try to benefit at each others' expense, and that's not farting rainbows, that's farting maths.

 

The context of the civil rights movement in the US is very different to the context of elven oppression in DA. The civil rights movement occurred in a modern, democratic, globalised nation that itself existed in a world in which many western countries had already granted equal rights to minorities after centuries of colonialism, two world wars and the rise of the Soviet Union. Thedas meanwhile consists of feudal nations that lack any need to reform their treatment of elves: any uprising is simply crushed and any peaceful calls for more rights are ignored - there is no reason for the upper classes to change the system, and any attempted changes are greeted with hostility. Celene and Maric were both very pro-elven rulers and yet they backslid on any attempt to improve elven lives in order to retain power and control; Loghain personally led an elven company in Ferelden's civil war and yet was ready to sell the Denerim elves into slavery as he perceived that this would give him an advantage against the darkspawn. 

 

One of the few characters in the game interested in actively improving elven lives is Briala, but she only achieves what she does through control of the eluvian network, exploitation of Orlais's Civil War and an alliance with the Inquisition (otherwise she would have no hope). Also, she personally reveres the creators and strives to retain elven culture as much as possible - she isn't simply one to 'integrate' into human culture, and neither are the majority of city elves who seek to protect the elven aspects of their identity.

[dragonflight288]

I obviously don't agree about the Dales being the best choice for a new elvhen homeland but I don't want to go in circles about it. 

 

So moving on-

 

Whatever culture the elves had in Arlathan, Tevinter and the Dales is gone and while I do think there's value in learning about the past particularly if it involves powerful magic that can make life better the Dalish and the Alienage elves have new cultures. The Dalish are nomadic hunters- that's who they are now, they live in tents and aravels, vallaslin is part of a coming of age ceremony, their magic and understanding of the Fade is unique, every day is a game of them verses the wilderness and sometimes when circumstances permit they investigate ruins in hopes of learning more about their ancestors. The elves in the Alienage have a less clear cut identity separate from human culture but there's a strong sense of community and practices that belongs solely to them.

 

Good or bad they've changed since the Fall of the Dales, formed new, very different identities so if the two come back together there's going to be as many problems within as without. 

 

I think one of the first things both groups would have to learn is either respect one another's beliefs, accept that they are all elven since both groups have a stick up their butt about who is "truly elven" and who is not, and understand if a city elf wants to worship the maker, he or she can, but if they want to worship the creators, he or she can as well. 

 

I can see the potential of both groups worked together, but there is also great potential for huge conflict, as you said, from within as well as from without. 

[Addai]

There will be blood, yes. The future is worth it.
 
EDIT: No, that sounds awful. We don't want there to be blood, but we're willing to stand up to it. You can't let the threat of violence repress you.

I thought you were talking about getting along? You're suddenly sounding very Dalish.

P.S. It's a good discussion, thank you.

[Dorrieb]

Well that's easily said. Whenever someone has locked you and your family inside your house, doused it in oil and put a torch to it, you might have a few regrets. I know I certainly would.

 

Yes, but nevertheless one must try. Activists too were (and are) threatened with violence, many of them were (and have been) murdered, but if they had let that stop them we wouldn't have made the progress that we have. And we have made progress... surely you can see that? To the point that a popular game can feature gay characters and the world has barely taken notice.

 

The context of the civil rights movement in the US is very different to the context of elven oppression in DA. The civil rights movement occurred in a modern, democratic, globalised nation that itself existed in a world in which many western countries had already granted equal rights to minorities after centuries of colonialism, two world wars and the rise of the Soviet Union. Thedas meanwhile consists of feudal nations that lack any need to reform their treatment of elves: any uprising is simply crushed and any peaceful calls for more rights are ignored - there is no reason for the upper classes to change the system, and any attempted changes are greeted with hostility. Celene and Maric were both very pro-elven rulers and yet they backslid on any attempt to improve elven lives in order to retain power and control; Loghain personally led an elven company in Ferelden's civil war and yet was ready to sell the Denerim elves into slavery as he perceived that this would give him an advantage against the darkspawn. 

 

One of the few characters in the game interested in actively improving elven lives is Briala, but she only achieves what she does through control of the eluvian network, exploitation of Orlais's Civil War and an alliance with the Inquisition (otherwise she would have no hope). Also, she personally reveres the creators and strives to retain elven culture as much as possible - she isn't simply one to 'integrate' into human culture, and neither are the majority of city elves who seek to protect the elven aspects of their identity.

 

You make it sound inevitable. It was actually a very tough fight, fraught with casualties. Attempted change was greeted with hostility, not stopping at murder.

 

It goes without saying that any fight to give equal rights to the elves would have to include all downtrodden sectors of society. They may suppress the elves, but can they purge the alienages and the poor and the peasants and the casteless? No sane leader would be willing to tear their own nation apart (Loghain excepted, but he's dead/gone). If elves were to let go of their isolationist identity and instead find common cause with others, the upper classes and nobility would soon have no choice but to concede to change.

 

Briala I'm iffy on. Her aims seem good, but she's too focused on her own personal power and utterly lacking in ethics. I get the feeling that she's using the elves rather than working for them, which may be what happens when you hang out with Orlesian royalty for too long.

[In Exile]

DAI confirms a lot of their traditional beliefs, and since Sarel and Paivel in DAO we've heard Dalish elves saying they know they don't know much about their own history. I think it's mostly players who weren't paying attention to the Dalish before DAI that think this.

Indeed. In fact DAI tells us that the Dalish in some respects understated the awe and power of Elvhenan as a civilisation, as we have conclusive proof they (among other things) could create whole realities out of nothing, were functionally ageless, and could alter the fabric of the world in ways that seem pure fantasy in modern Thedas.

The Dalish don't get their own history, sure, but their views about lost glory are more vindicated than in their wildest dreams. When it comes to their fall, for example, we learn Tevinter was a bystander and they were their own architects. While that undercuts the historical narrative it also strengthened their myth of power as a race, since their fall was their own doing.

[Dorrieb]

I thought you were talking about getting along? You're suddenly sounding very Dalish.

P.S. It's a good discussion, thank you.

 

If the Dalish were to raise their heads up from out of their own bottoms, yeah. And cheers, you too.

[Red of Rivia]

Well that's easily said. Whenever someone has locked you and your family inside your house, doused it in oil and put a torch to it, you might have a few regrets. I know I certainly would.

In the world of The Witcher this would created the Scoia'tael. An endless circle of violence between both sides.

[Dorrieb]

Indeed. In fact DAI tells us that the Dalish in some respects understated the awe and power of Elvhenan as a civilisation, as we have conclusive proof they (among other things) could create whole realities out of nothing, were functionally ageless, and could alter the fabric of the world in ways that seem pure fantasy in modern Thedas.

The Dalish don't get their own history, sure, but their views about lost glory are more vindicated than in their wildest dreams. When it comes to their fall, for example, we learn Tevinter was a bystander and they were their own architects. While that undercuts the historical narrative it also strengthened their myth of power as a race, since their fall was their own doing.

 

'Yay, we tore ourselves apart! We're our own worst enemy! Go us!'?

[MoonDrummer]

In the world of The Witcher this would created the Scoia'tael. An endless circle of violence between both sides.

I think I should start playing the Witcher, it sounds like a miserable place. I would fit in perfectly. 

'Yay, we tore ourselves apart! We're our own worst enemy! Go us!'?

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 

Yes, but nevertheless one must try. Activists too were (and are) threatened with violence, many of them were (and have been) murdered, but if they had let that stop them we wouldn't have made the progress that we have. And we have made progress... surely you can see that? To the point that a popular game can feature gay characters and the world has barely taken notice.

 

It's also true that activists can be the ones doing the threatening as well.

 

Both in various forms of fiction and in real life, and people who aren't even involved are attacked, sometimes violently, for viewpoints inferred upon them by activists or by popular prejudice that they may or may not even have.

 

Guilty by association.

[dragonflight288]

I think I should start playing the Witcher, it sounds like a miserable place. I would fit in perfectly. 

 

 

It is quite a miserable place. There are no really "good" choices. It's a world where racism runs rampant, abuse of power is the currency of power, and murder and mayhem, even by those who are discriminated against, is a way of life. 

[Bad King]

You make it sound inevitable. It was actually a very tough fight, fraught with casualties. Attempted change was greeted with hostility, not stopping at murder.

 

It goes without saying that any fight to give equal rights to the elves would have to include all downtrodden sectors of society. They may suppress the elves, but can they purge the alienages and the poor and the peasants and the casteless? No sane leader would be willing to tear their own nation apart (Loghain excepted, but he's dead/gone). If elves were to let go of their isolationist identity and instead find common cause with others, the upper classes and nobility would soon have no choice but to concede to change.

 

Briala I'm iffy on. Her aims seem good, but she's too focused on her own personal power and utterly lacking in ethics. I get the feeling that she's using the elves rather than working for them, which may be what happens when you hang out with Orlesian royalty for too long.

 

Not necessarily inevitable, but there were forces at work on a global scale that pushed the civil rights movement forward and it had many sympathisers in high and low places (which Thedas' elves lack). The problem with the elves finding common cause with other downtrodden people is that many of those people fear and/or resent the elves primarily due to the encouragement of their elite who tend to perpetuate stereotypes about the elves. It's one of the reasons many elves choose to live in alienages: their lives are often threatened if they try and live outside alienages. Unless the feudal system is reorganised from the top with the efforts of individuals like Briala and Leliana, any attempt to change the system from the bottom up will fail. Trying to appease humans by eradicating aspects of their own identity will fail.

 

The Dalish don't get their own history, sure, but their views about lost glory are more vindicated than in their wildest dreams. When it comes to their fall, for example, we learn Tevinter was a bystander and they were their own architects. While that undercuts the historical narrative it also strengthened their myth of power as a race, since their fall was their own doing.

 

Not entirely: they weakened themselves through infighting, but the Imperium nevertheless swung the axe on the weakened elven people and enslaved most of them. Whether this would have happened otherwise is unclear.

[Red of Rivia]

I think I should start playing the Witcher, it sounds like a miserable place. I would fit in perfectly.   Thedas has steered away from being a really shitty place to live imo.

Can I say without spoilers if you think the elves are fucked in Thedas, do not want to see the North in The Witcher.