1602 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

'Yay, we tore ourselves apart! We're our own worst enemy! Go us!'?

Well, yes. Better than the racist "humans are plague bearing vermin who beat us because of an aging plague".

[ComedicSociopathy]

Leave to go where? For one thing, the Dalish are now in scattered clans. They'd need a powerful leader and a powerful reason to overcome that and unify. Then how do you know wherever they go won't be worse?

 

Just pack up and leave, wandering into god knows where? They would have to travel either by sea, through a swamp, or through a desert. That sounds like a terrible plan.

 

Staying in a realm ruled by people that hate and fear you isn't much better either, especially when doing so has lead to your people slowly dying out. It's not a great plan, or even a good one, and it has a whole lot of variables that could easily lead to disaster, but not as if the Dalish have anything else going for them. 

[Amne YA]

Well, yes. Better than the racist "humans are plague bearing vermin who beat us because of an aging plague".

 go halla  hunting ?  

[Steelcan]

I support a massive elven uprising against the human nations of Thedas, they can be put down and we go onto better storylines

[Dorrieb]

Not necessarily inevitable, but there were forces at work on a global scale that pushed the civil rights movement forward and it had many sympathisers in high and low places (which Thedas' elves lack). The problem with the elves finding common cause with other downtrodden people is that many of those people fear and/or resent the elves primarily due to the encouragement of their elite who tend to perpetuate stereotypes about the elves. It's one of the reasons many elves choose to live in alienages: their lives are often threatened if they try and live outside alienages. Unless the feudal system is reorganised from the top with the efforts of individuals like Briala and Leliana, any attempt to change the system from the bottom up will fail. Trying to appease humans by eradicating aspects of their own identity will fail.

 

I disagree with that so much. Real change happens from the grassroots, as it were. When it's imposed from the top it's a form of tyranny, no matter how well-intentioned, and it never works. Only when people get past their prejudices and realise that we are all in it together can real progress be made. It's more difficult, and it involves a lot of suffering and struggle, but the people come through, every single time.

 

I don't see it as eradicating aspects of their identity. You still care about your people, you're just expanding the concept of 'your people' to include everyone. My warden's people are the elves of the alienage, but also the casteless of Orzammar, and the peasants of Orlais, and the mages of Kirkwall. Give them a chance and they'll see it too.

[Dorrieb]

Well, yes. Better than the racist "humans are plague bearing vermin who beat us because of an aging plague".

 

Yeah... Not that much better though. Not exactly something to be proud of.

[Assassino01]

Here is a point I just thought about elves intigrating into human society. What have the human Nations done for the elves that make them worthy of the elves' cooperation?
Why should the elves wish to become loyal citizens of countries which have given them nothing?

[Assassino01]

Here is a point I just thought about elves intigrating into human society. What have the human Nations done for the elves that make them worthy of the elves' cooperation?
Why should the elves wish to become loyal citizens of countries which have given them nothing?

[Steelcan]

Here is a point I just thought about elves intigrating into human society. What have the human Nations done for the elves that make them worthy of the elves' cooperation?
Why should the elves wish to become loyal citizens of countries which have given them nothing?

because not dying in their thousands as alienages burn is always a good idea

[ComedicSociopathy]

Here is a point I just thought about elves intigrating into human society. What have the human Nations done for the elves that make them worthy of the elves' cooperation?
Why should the elves wish to become loyal citizens of countries which have given them nothing?

 

The short answer: Jack and Sh*t 

 

Beside a few examples most elves that live alongside humans are treated like garage. So, yeah there's no reason to ingratiate into human society willingly beside not wanting to live out in the woods like the Dalish and the possibility of social reform within the system, which is something Briala can possibly pull off in Inquisition. 

[Bad King]

I disagree with that so much. Real change happens from the grassroots, as it were. When it's imposed from the top it's a form of tyranny, no matter how well-intentioned, and it never works. Only when people get past their prejudices and realise that we are all in it together can real progress be made. It's more difficult, and it involves a lot of suffering and struggle, but the people come through, every single time.

 

I don't see it as eradicating aspects of their identity. You still care about your people, you're just expanding the concept of 'your people' to include everyone. My warden's people are the elves of the alienage, but also the casteless of Orzammar, and the peasants of Orlais, and the mages of Kirkwall. Give them a chance and they'll see it too.

 

Thedassian society consists of a series of feudal systems so unless BioWare suddenly introduces representative democracy into the world tyranny is the norm (from our modern perspective). All we as players need to decide on is which form of tyranny is most desirable. In such a feudal system, the change you describe is impossible when the people at the bottom are facing such entrenched, established power. The only way to change things in such a system is from the top. 

 

Regarding your second point, you originally appeared to be arguing for elven integration into the human system via the removal of ideas that push for a separate elven identity: not exactly an inclusive concept of 'people'.

[Addai]

I disagree with that so much. Real change happens from the grassroots, as it were. When it's imposed from the top it's a form of tyranny, no matter how well-intentioned, and it never works. Only when people get past their prejudices and realise that we are all in it together can real progress be made. It's more difficult, and it involves a lot of suffering and struggle, but the people come through, every single time.

It only ever comes from the top. Anything else is an illusion. Who's on top can change, but that happens a lot more slowly than you're proposing. You can't look at modern civil rights without seeing the whole history of struggle against absolutist monarchy, and the absolutely blood drenched modern era in which it has come about- the scale of which is far out of proportion to anything that came before.

What's driving the change is also not goodwill, it's wealth. The elves will advance when they have something that humans want and are able to defend it to the point that humans need to bargain for it rather than just take it. Fences, guns and money- that's what drives change.

[Dorrieb]

Thedassian society consists of a series of feudal systems so unless BioWare suddenly introduces representative democracy into the world tyranny is the norm (from our modern perspective). All we as players need to decide on is which form of tyranny is most desirable. In such a feudal system, the change you describe is impossible when the people at the bottom are facing such entrenched, established power. The only way to change things in such a system is from the top. 

 

Regarding your second point, you originally appeared to be arguing for elven integration into the human system via the removal of ideas that push for a separate elven identity: not exactly an inclusive concept of 'people'.

 

It's not impossible. Entrenched and established? Unentrench and disestablish it, then. It isn't easy, but it's been done.

 

And yes, there can't be a separate elven identity (or human, or dwarven). Otherwise all you get is 'separate but equal'.

[Assassino01]

I agree with those here that point out that feudal societies like those in Thedas are very rarely changed from the bottom up, and never by marginalized groups like the elves, who are looked down upon by even the peasants. Why would the Orleasian peasant seek to help rise up the only group that is beneath him on the social ladder? Why would the Nevarran merchant help elevate his cheap labour force? What benefit would the Fereldan Bann have of spearheading the elven cause in the landsmeet? 

 

No, the only groups who can help, and has the will to help the elves would be the elves themselves, and only by distancing themselves from the human nations. Possibly by force. 

[Dorrieb]

It only ever comes from the top. Anything else is an illusion. Who's on top can change, but that happens a lot more slowly than you're proposing. You can't look at modern civil rights without seeing the whole history of struggle against absolutist monarchy, and the absolutely blood drenched modern era in which it has come about- the scale of which is far out of proportion to anything that came before.

What's driving the change is also not goodwill, it's wealth. The elves will advance when they have something that humans want and are able to defend it to the point that humans need to bargain for it rather than just take it. Fences, guns and money- that's what drives change.

 

I can only tell you that you're wrong, it never comes from the top.

 

There may be a whole history of struggle ahead, but surely it has to start somewhere?

 

As for 'fences, guns, and money' wow, so cynical. I suggest that an overly cynical view is further from the truth than an overly optimistic one. You should read Kropotkin's 'Mutual Aid' (or just a quick look at the wikipaedia link): http://en.wikipedia....or_of_Evolution

[Bad King]

It's not impossible. Entrenched and established? Unentrench and disestablish it, then. It isn't easy, but it's been done.

 

That's an understatement, particularly when the elves directly challenging the system from the bottom up has tended to be completely self-destructive.

 

And yes, there can't be a separate elven identity (or human, or dwarven). Otherwise all you get is 'separate but equal'.

 

So you don't want to expand any concept of identity, you merely want them all to adopt one human monoculture and destroy cultural diversity.

[Addai]

As for 'fences, guns, and money' wow, so cynical. I suggest that an overly cynical view is further from the truth than an overly optimistic one. You should read Kropotkin's 'Mutual Aid' (or just a quick look at the wikipaedia link): http://en.wikipedia....or_of_Evolution

Yep. Well, I would call it realistic. Cooperation can happen when the guns, money and territory questions are settled.

[MoonDrummer]

And yes, there can't be a separate elven identity (or human, or dwarven).

That sounds like it would be really boring.

[Addai]

And yes, there can't be a separate elven identity (or human, or dwarven). Otherwise all you get is 'separate but equal'.

Well, screw that, then.

[Red of Rivia]

I agree with those here that point out that feudal societies like those in Thedas are very rarely changed from the bottom up, and never by marginalized groups like the elves, who are looked down upon by even the peasants. Why would the Orleasian peasant seek to help rise up the only group that is beneath him on the social ladder? Why would the Nevarran merchant help elevate his cheap labour force? What benefit would the Fereldan Bann have of spearheading the elven cause in the landsmeet? 

 

No, the only groups who can help, and has the will to help the elves would be the elves themselves, and only by distancing themselves from the human nations. Possibly by force. 

We are almost entering in the field of revolution.

[In Exile]

Yeah... Not that much better though. Not exactly something to be proud of.

 

Their society collapsing on itself after what amounts to a fundamental change in the fabric of reality perpetrated by one of their "gods", and only once that collapse was almost complete getting picked apart by scavangers is a lot different of a narrative from just getting overrun by plague-bearing invaders for the crime of being too perfect.

 

Inasmuch as there is a narrative that gives your society agency as it collapses, being the architects of your own downfall is it. The elves go from powerless victims (aging plague!) to agents (their vices being the cause of their downfall). It's very differently thematically.

 

And it's all about harsh truths, which is what all DA history is about in the end. Every group/culture has to confront the fact that their actual history does not correspond to their myth about it. DA:I takes that up many notches with each group it focuses on, and I'm sure we'll see it in the future with the Qunari.

[Steelcan]

We are almost entering in the field of revolution.

an elven uprisign would more liekly look like a slave revolt than an armed revolution.

 

They are extremely under privileged, they cannot bear weapons, they have little to no representation, they cannot organize large scale, and so on

[Dorrieb]

That's an understatement, particularly when the elves directly challenging the system from the bottom up has tended to be completely self-destructive.

 

 

So you don't want to expand any concept of identity, you merely want to adopt one human monoculture and destroy cultural diversity.

 

No, but everyone should be willing to give up their traditions, whether elven, dwarven, or human. For anything that they consider a tradition of their culture, first examine it, ask 'what is its purpose?' Does its purpose still apply? Is it something that will make everyone's lives better? If it is then fine, keep it. If not, discard it, never mind whether it comes from the ancient elves, or the fathers of the stone, or Andraste's brother-in-law, or whatever. Those people did things their way for their own reasons, now we should do things our own way, for our own reasons.

 

There is a lot from the past that we can still use, and more importantly, share, but if we let it define us then it can only hold us back, instead of helping us move forward.

[Dorrieb]

Well, screw that, then.

 

You favour segregation?

[MoonDrummer]

You favour segregation?

Its just that the utopia you suggest would be quite boring to play in. May as well paint everything beige.