I agree with you completely.
P.S Wasent homosexuality allowed in ancient Greece?
Just wondering.
Oh and P.S no I am not a female btw. (It lookst like I am the one who posted the thing you are arguing about no I am not, just sayin.
exclusive m/m relationships were not commonly looked favorably upon
in the military it was more common, though it may be taking the idea of Theban Sacred Band a bit too far, bisexuality was tolerated certainly though
exclusive m/m relationships were not commonly looked favorably upon
int he military is what more common, though it may be taking the idea of Theban Sacred Band a bit too far, bisexuality was tolerated certainly though
Yeah, like Sparta.
Are you female? Do you like having the vote? I do. Are you okay with sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you enjoy back breaking labour from dawn to dusk? I don't. What are your feelings on child labour? Segregation? Should homosexuality be illegal? Do you enjoy computer games and spare time in which to play them?
I remember the society into which I was born, and I look at the society in which we live today, and yes, it is an improvement, and not only because of 'conveniences' such as i-phones and the internet. It's easy to idealise the past and fool yourself into thinking that we were better then, more 'spiritual' or more 'in touch with ourselves' and so on, but poke it even just a little and it's rubbish.
I fail to see how this in any way supports your arguments that the elves should integrate into human society in Thedas. They are anything but "modern" whatever that means. In fact, it seems to me the Dalish conform much more to this Western ideal you favor, than for instance Tevinter or Orlais, the two largest human countries in Thedas.
I would also dare to say that the average Dalish elf lives a far better life than the Orleasian peasant farmer, or the tevinter slave. Yes, his clan may be at risk of attack from humans. But he does not need to worry that his lands might be appropriated and he and his family left to starve. Or that his master may wish to carve him up in a blood ritual.
The Dalish elf need not worry should he be injured, for he has access to healing magic. Food is available to him, although he must work for it, and he is free.
I would also dare to say that the average Dalish elf lives a far better life than the Orleasian peasant farmer, or the tevinter slave. Yes, his clan may be at risk of attack from humans. But he does not need to worry that his lands might be appropriated and he and his family left to starve. Or that his master may wish to carve him up in a blood ritual. Nor does he need worry should he be injured, for he has access to healing magic. Food is available to him, although he must work for it, and he is free.
at risk from humans, demons, the Templar order, wild beasts...
He has no lands to lose admittedly, but he can still starve if there's a bad winter and the game animals and harvested plants die
its not like soldiers and others from Andrastian nations don't get access to healing magic, but the Dalish would be at greater risk even because of their mages being so spread out
When you enter the Servant's Quarters in Halamshiral with Sera, you find the body of a murdered cook. Sera gets angry. 'What kind of bastard stops to murder the cook?' she says. She cares about that cook, and the cook was an elf. The difference with Sera is that she doesn't see the victim as an 'elf', but rather as a helpless person who was casually murdered by those more powerful than her for reasons that had nothing to do with her. She would be equally as angry if the cook had been human, or a dwarf. Sera does anything but victim-blaming. She simply sees people for who they are, and not for what shape they are.
(That's a bit of a silly question, since the answer is obviously "someone who doesn't want to be seen.")
Sera's problem is that she thinks that everything related to the Dalish culture should be swept away and that history doesn't matter at all, neither of which are true. There are fundamental truths about elven society and nature that have yet to be grasped, and the quest for knowledge must continue. Aside from that, she seems to think that the Dalish have some kind of obligation to adapt to Andrastian human culture.
(That's a bit of a silly question, since the answer is obviously "someone who doesn't want to be seen.")
Sera's problem is that she thinks that everything related to the Dalish culture should be swept away and that history doesn't matter at all, neither of which are true. There are fundamental truths about elven society and nature that have yet to be grasped, and the quest for knowledge must continue. Aside from that, she seems to think that the Dalish have some kind of obligation to adapt to Andrastian human culture.
I fail to see how this in any way supports your arguments that the elves should integrate into human society in Thedas. They are anything but "modern" whatever that means. In fact, it seems to me the Dalish conform much more to this Western ideal you favor, than for instance Tevinter or Orlais, the two largest human countries in Thedas.
I would also dare to say that the average Dalish elf lives a far better life than the Orleasian peasant farmer, or the tevinter slave. Yes, his clan may be at risk of attack from humans. But he does not need to worry that his lands might be appropriated and he and his family left to starve. Or that his master may wish to carve him up in a blood ritual.
The Dalish elf need not worry should he be injured, for he has access to healing magic. Food is available to him, although he must work for it, and he is free.
It depends on the Tevinter slave, there are some that have a better life than the Dalish.
I don't think Sera is against finding out more about the elven culture particularly as much as she is against history generally. She just particularly dislikes the Dalish for it. She dislikes Solas for it too, and he doesn't care for the Dalish at all either.
Sera doesn't just devlaue the Dalish. She devalues being an elf. It's why she's equally displeased with CEs. It just comes up a lot less often because CEs don't have a voice in DAI.
The problem is that, ultimately, the elven problem is a human problem. Human racism is the source of the vast majority of the problems of both city and Dalish elves, and Sera completely ignores this.
at risk from humans, demons, the Templar order, wild beasts...
He has no lands to lose admittedly, but he can still starve if there's a bad winter and the game animals and harvested plants die
its not like soldiers and others from Andrastian nations don't get access to healing magic, but the Dalish would be at greater risk even because of their mages being so spread out
The threat from Demons seems overplayed. Especially if the Dalish generally consider 3 the safe amount of mages pr clan.
If a bad winter hits a Dalish clan they can move to new pastures, or trade for food in human villages. If a bad harvest hits an Orleasian peasant he will die.
As for healing magic, soldiers traveling with an army accompanied by a sufficient number of mages might have some limited access. And certain nobles who can afford it. But nobody else. Certainly not the city born elves. The Dalish mages are spread out between clans. But each clan has mages. The human and city elf mages are hoarded in towers and regularly purged.
The Templar order is a threat. But it seems they rarely attack whole clans. Probably too much effort to track down, and too high a risk of loosing a lot of people. Attacking a clan of 20 - 50 armed and well trained elves isn't the Templar's style.
Furthermore, not living in overcrowded alienages also protects the Dalish from disease and other problems that come with urban overcrowding.
It depends on the Tevinter slave, there are some that have a better life than the Dalish.
I agree. Some do. But I trust you will agree that most probably do not.
The threat from Demons seems overplayed. Especially if the Dalish generally consider 3 the safe amount of mages pr clan.
If a bad winter hits a Dalish clan they can move to new pastures, or trade for food in human villages. If a bad harvest hits an Orleasian peasant he will die.
Well TME has an entire clan being wiped out by demons, so its hardly impossible
Nomadic lifestyles aren't well suited to disruptions in the environment, it may sound good to just move onto greener pastures, but what will you eat before you get there?
the rest I have no real complaints with
Modernity for the elves A. has no significant technological advantages that we know of, and B. has brought nothing but societal misery. Why should they be expected to enjoy it?
I fail to see how this in any way supports your arguments that the elves should integrate into human society in Thedas...
Because it has to start somewhere. No, they wouldn't be expected to 'enjoy' it, it would be a first step toward becoming something new. Yes, their ancestors were the victims of a monstruous injustice, and yes, they are right to be angry about it. But how does that help? 700 years is an awfully long time to spend feeling sorry for themselves. Do they mean to go on like this forever?
Whether they like it or not, they are a part of the same world as the humans. They should take part in shaping that world for the better, for their own benefit AND for the benefit of everyone else in it. Exert some influence, participate, contribute, join in. Of course they won't be accepted easily, and taking their place in society is going to be a fight, but in the end it will be better for everyone. I'd bet it wouldn't take another 700 years, either.
Well TME has an entire clan being wiped out by demons, so its hardly impossible
Nomadic lifestyles aren't well suited to disruptions in the environment, it may sound good to just move onto greener pastures, but what will you eat before you get there?
the rest I have no real complaints with
I've not read the book. But I know the situation was hardly a normal one. Though I agree that demons probably pose a threat. But since the Dalish have prevailed for 700 years with mages in each clan I will assume it is not a severe enough problem to cause permanent decline in their population.
And I agree. Nomadic lifestyles are difficult. But in my own personal opinion I find it superior to the alternatives the Dalish have at their disposal at the moment. Evidently the Dalish do as well.
Because it has to start somewhere. No, they wouldn't be expected to 'enjoy' it, it would be a first step toward becoming something new. Yes, their ancestors were the victims of a monstruous injustice, and yes, they are right to be angry about it. But how does that help? 700 years is an awfully long time to spend feeling sorry for themselves. Do they mean to go on like this forever?
Whether they like it or not, they are a part of the same world as the humans. They should take part in shaping that world for the better, for their own benefit AND for the benefit of everyone else in it. Exert some influence, participate, contribute, join in. Of course they won't be accepted easily, and taking their place in society is going to be a fight, but in the end it will be better for everyone. I'd bet it wouldn't take another 700 years, either.
None of that has anything to do with the main problem, which is humans. If the Dalish elves tried to integrate, they'd just get forced into Alienages (the one exception that can happen, in Wycome, if the Dalish Inquisitor does everything right, is an exception due to a preexisting crisis). Human racism and cultural imperialism is at the root of the elven problems.
I dont understand why some pepole are so suprised Arlathan had slaves. I mean, it was kind of obvious, almost every ancient empire in the real world had slaves. I never thought Arlathan have been "saints" and I am a great elven supporter, thats why I created this thread lol. I just mean we shouldnt be suprised at things, that we support the Elves, it dosent make them saints, that have done nothing wrong.
Well my head canon was that initially Arlathan was a shining beacon of hope and civilization admist a cesspit of tyranny... and that only at a later stage did slavery begin to make headway... And it was then that a certain FH decided to take a stand...
But this is idealised head canon... Looking at human societies the Greeks, the Egyptians... They had slaves. And the Romans of course. Big time.
The Aztecs the Incas...
What about the Chinese... Anyone to contribute there?
I've not read the book. But I know the situation was hardly a normal one. Though I agree that demons probably pose a threat. But since the Dalish have prevailed for 700 years with mages in each clan I will assume it is not a severe enough problem to cause permanent decline in their population.
And I agree. Nomadic lifestyles are difficult. But in my own personal opinion I find it superior to the alternatives the Dalish have at their disposal at the moment. Evidently the Dalish do as well.
Without doubt, be colonized sucks, before a false sense of freedom than none.
Are you female? Do you like having the vote? I do. Are you okay with sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you enjoy back breaking labour from dawn to dusk? I don't. What are your feelings on child labour? Segregation? Should homosexuality be illegal? Do you enjoy computer games and spare time in which to play them?
I remember the society into which I was born, and I look at the society in which we live today, and yes, it is an improvement, and not only because of 'conveniences' such as i-phones and the internet. It's easy to idealise the past and fool yourself into thinking that we were better then, more 'spiritual' or more 'in touch with ourselves' and so on, but poke it even just a little and it's rubbish.
No likes left so 
Because it has to start somewhere. No, they wouldn't be expected to 'enjoy' it, it would be a first step toward becoming something new. Yes, their ancestors were the victims of a monstruous injustice, and yes, they are right to be angry about it. But how does that help? 700 years is an awfully long time to spend feeling sorry for themselves. Do they mean to go on like this forever?
Whether they like it or not, they are a part of the same world as the humans. They should take part in shaping that world for the better, for their own benefit AND for the benefit of everyone else in it. Exert some influence, participate, contribute, join in. Of course they won't be accepted easily, and taking their place in society is going to be a fight, but in the end it will be better for everyone. I'd bet it wouldn't take another 700 years, either.
They are a unique culture with what is to them sacred traditions carried down for thousands of years. They are not "feeling sorry for themselves". To the Dalish mind they are the last remnants of elven distinctiveness, of elven culture and language and traditions. Those are powerful motivators to stay apart. Not to mention that the humans and city elves want nothing to do with the Dalish. They do not want to exchange ideas and views. They want to destroy them. The Chantry see them as a direct threat because they present an alternative religion.
That they are part of the same world as humans does not in any way mean they need to unite with humanity. The same way France isn't going to merge with Somalia any time soon simply because they exist in the same world.
I would also argue that the Dalish do exert some influence. Far more than the City elves at least. The Dalish, as scattered and different as they are, are still independent, as well as armed.
Thedas isn't filled with wonderful democratic counties where you can just "participate" and "join in". The only way to get influence in Thedas is to have enough swords that the other guy takes you seriously.
A large flaw in your argument is that you assume that elven culture is 'out-dated' simply because it is old
When you enter the Servant's Quarters in Halamshiral with Sera, you find the body of a murdered cook. Sera gets angry. 'What kind of bastard stops to murder the cook?' she says. She cares about that cook, and the cook was an elf. The difference with Sera is that she doesn't see the victim as an 'elf', but rather as a helpless person who was casually murdered by those more powerful than her for reasons that had nothing to do with her. She would be equally as angry if the cook had been human, or a dwarf. Sera does anything but victim-blaming. She simply sees people for who they are, and not for what shape they are.
Sera is uncomfortable with elfiness but has definite working class instincts... Like Blackwell who is really critical of Dorian, who was an aristo back in Trev, and says he'd be interested in working for Red Jenny once his time with the inquisition comes to an end.
I've not read the book. But I know the situation was hardly a normal one. Though I agree that demons probably pose a threat. But since the Dalish have prevailed for 700 years with mages in each clan I will assume it is not a severe enough problem to cause permanent decline in their population.
they've been in permanent decline since the lost the Dales
That's it exactly.
It was rendered irrelevant by time thus it is outdated by time.
The elves are a remnant, a echo, a hollow reminder of the past.
Certainly the feudal societies that now dominates Thedas are far superior to all elven achievements across 8000 years of Thedosian history, and the humans can learn nothing at all from those savages.
*Sarcasm*
A culture is not rendered outdated simply because its practitioners are militarily defeated.
they've been in permanent decline since the lost the Dales
Where does this come from. I find this difficult to believe. Especially since their mage population is so large they apparently have to kill them off, and since they're stated to exist in "every land the humans cannot hold".
Certainly the feudal societies that now dominates Thedas are far superior to all elven achievements across 8000 years of Thedosian history, and the humans can learn nothing at all from those savages.
*Sarcasm*
A culture is not rendered outdated simply because its practitioners are militarily defeated.
militarily, culturally, economically, socially....
the time of the Elves is over, the Age of Man is upon us
Certainly the feudal societies that now dominates Thedas are far superior to all elven achievements across 8000 years of Thedosian history, and the humans can learn nothing at all from those savages.
*Sarcasm*
A culture is not rendered outdated simply because its practitioners are militarily defeated.
Is this a actual response...or what.
Honestly whiny pro elf whining isn't conductive to good conversation.
Sorry, I thought this was the elven support thread.
Because it has to start somewhere. No, they wouldn't be expected to 'enjoy' it, it would be a first step toward becoming something new. Yes, their ancestors were the victims of a monstruous injustice, and yes, they are right to be angry about it. But how does that help? 700 years is an awfully long time to spend feeling sorry for themselves. Do they mean to go on like this forever?
Whether they like it or not, they are a part of the same world as the humans. They should take part in shaping that world for the better, for their own benefit AND for the benefit of everyone else in it. Exert some influence, participate, contribute, join in. Of course they won't be accepted easily, and taking their place in society is going to be a fight, but in the end it will be better for everyone. I'd bet
it wouldn't take another 700 years, either.
It has been seven centuries for the city elves too.
The truth is that the Dalish have survived because they have nothing the humans want and that also means they have nothing to contribute and no leverage to hold over humans. They are also weak, Nevarra could probably defeat all Dalish elves put together, never mind Orlais.
What can they do to contribute? Why would humans pay attention to them? Trying to join their societies would strengthen the city elves but weaken the Dalish, dilute their culture and race.
The only thing that occurs to me is if all the Dalish moved to the Anderfels and attempted to establish a settlement in return for help fighting the Darkspawn which are a constant threat there. But given that the Anders are also the most devout Andrastians on the continent, I don't imagine it would last.
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