1602 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

militarily, culturally, economically, socially....

the time of the Elves is over, the Age of Man is upon us

And thank the Maker for that.

[MisterJB]

Certainly the feudal societies that now dominates Thedas are far superior to all elven achievements across 8000 years of Thedosian history, and the humans can learn nothing at all from those savages.

 

*Sarcasm*

 

A culture is not rendered outdated simply because its practitioners are militarily defeated. 

 

Yes but their last great achievement was two thousand years ago.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sorry, I thought this was the elven support thread.

And that means what?

That they cannot have detractors?

[Red of Rivia]

Yes but their last great achievement was two thousand years ago.

and is well likely to remain so, unless those pseudo-gods do something.

[Assassino01]

Yes but their last great achievement was two thousand years ago.

 

The Dales were magically superior to the human nations. If the magic we see in Inquisition is any judge. But yeah, the elves haven't had the ability to do much for the past 700 years. Hopefully that will change.

 

And that means what?

That they cannot have detractors?

 

No. I am simply stating that since this is the Elven Support Thread I simply assumed most people here would in some shape or form support the elves. Evidently this is not always the case. 

[Maria13]

Is this a actual response...

 

Yep, instead of responding to coherent arguments just accuse your opponent of whining... Why don't you?

 

*SNIP!*

[Maria13]

The Dales were magically superior to the human nations. If the magic we see in Inquisition is any judge. But yeah, the elves haven't had the ability to do much for the past 700 years. Hopefully that will change.

 

 

No. I am simply stating that since this is the Elven Support Thread I simply assumed most people here would in some shape or form support the elves. Evidently this is not always the case. 

 

Not Master Wader... Oh sorry! Warder... Can't you tell from the name he has issues???

[Master Warder Z_]

Yep, instead of responding to coherent arguments just accuse your opponent of whining... Why don't you?

*SNIP!*

Stating a culture is has not ceased being relevant despite the world it existed within no longer existing is a coherent argument?

I'll take your word for it.

[MisterJB]

The Dales were magically superior to the human nations. If the magic we see in Inquisition is any judge. But yeah, the elves haven't had the ability to do much for the past 700 years. Hopefully that will change.

The magic we see in Inquisition was from Arlathan.

 

And whatever magical prowess the Dales had did not prevent their defeat.

 

Honestly, I'm surprised they have lasted 700 years.

Probably something to do with keeping the status quo.

I mean, in two thousand years since the Birth of Christ, we have been to the moon while Thedas hasn't changed much.

[Master Warder Z_]

No. I am simply stating that since this is the Elven Support Thread I simply assumed most people here would in some shape or form support the elves. Evidently this is not always the case.

Hence why I prefer the broader termed "discussion" thread titling.

It dissuades that notion.

[Master Warder Z_]

The magic we see in Inquisition was from Arlathan.

And whatever magical prowess the Dales had did not prevent their defeat.

Honestly, I'm surprised they have lasted 700 years.
Probably something to do with keeping the status quo.
I mean, in two thousand years since the Birth of Christ, we have been to the moon while Thedas hasn't changed much.

Your probably right.

It's a in universe balancing.

[Dorrieb]

None of that has anything to do with the main problem, which is humans. If the Dalish elves tried to integrate, they'd just get forced into Alienages (the one exception that can happen, in Wycome, if the Dalish Inquisitor does everything right, is an exception due to a preexisting crisis). Human racism and cultural imperialism is at the root of the elven problems.

 

Not disagreeing with you there, but humans too can change. Many institutions already manage it, when they stop seeing each other as 'elves' and 'humans'. For example, within the mage Circles (pre-troubles), elves and humans lived together, not as 'elves' and 'humans', but as 'mages'. If they can do it, so can everyone else.

 

Sorry, I thought this was the elven support thread. 

 

We can support elves by not enabling them.

 

It has been seven centuries for the city elves too.

 

Absolutely. City Elves are better positioned to change, but they need a swift kick in the pants. Too many of them are complacent, lamenting the past and idealising the Dalish, Meanwhile, the Dalish look down their noses at them, and idealise the original Elvhen. And now we've met some original Elvhen who look down their noses at them and don't consider them 'true' elves either. And what do these guys even have to be so proud of? They're a gang of slaves who have spent the last few thousand years squatting in an overgrown ruin and mostly sleeping all the time, guarding a forgotten kiddy pool of knowledge that no one even remembered, one crappy, pointless job, and they couldn't even do that. If that's immortality, they can keep it.

 

The elves are a 'proud people', but they have to start asking themselves, what are they proud of, exactly? * Their ancient Empire of Terror? Their many accomplishments since then? When humans, dwarves, and qunari meet to decide the political and commercial shape of their world, do you think any of them go, 'Oh, wait a minute, we can't go ahead with the summit, we forgot to invite the elves!' even though these decisions affect them as well? 

 

* Stolen from Pterry Pratchett as well.

[Xilizhra]

Not disagreeing with you there, but humans too can change. Many institutions already manage it, when they stop seeing each other as 'elves' and 'humans'. For example, within the mage Circles (pre-troubles), elves and humans lived together, not as 'elves' and 'humans', but as 'mages'. If they can do it, so can everyone else.

Only under the iron fist of Chantry doctrine. How would this facilitate equal cultural dialogue between Andrastians and Dalish?

[Dorrieb]

As opposed to city elves, who've spent the last 700 years playing nice with humans and yet are still treated as little more than slaves and second-class citizens in human society? (And then get beaten down, lynched and/or purged if they try to rise too high or stand up for themselves?) If humans were going to start treating elves more fairly, they've had 700 years to do it. The fact that they haven't shows they have no intention.

 

Can you really blame the Dalish for seeing the way city elves are treated in human society and saying, "You know what? No thanks, I don't want that life. I'd rather travel around avoiding humans than live under their boots, and practice my own religion and culture over the ones they try to force on us."

 

That's a false dichotomy. If the only choices were to either live as the Dalish or as the city elves have done so far, then maybe living as the Dalish do would be the better choice. Not necessarily: the Dalish have a better standard of life, but the city elves are presented with more individual opportunities. But it doesn't matter, because I've been arguing that elves need to fight for an equal place in Thedan society, and that doesn't mean Alienages and oppression, does it.

 

But of course, 'humans won't allow it!' Not without a fight, they won't. So fight. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it doesn't happen at all if you don't work for it. Many humans already accept elves as equals, work with that. It isn't: 'Excuse me, can we be equal citizens and valued members of society? No? Okay then, we'll just go back to moaning and girning about our cruel fate for another few hundred years.'

[Dorrieb]

Only under the iron fist of Chantry doctrine. How would this facilitate equal cultural dialogue between Andrastians and Dalish?

 

It proves that it can be done. Under oppression by the Chantry, they have a common cause as mages. They don't see each other as 'elves' and 'humans', they see each other as fellow mages.

[Steelcan]

Only under the iron fist of Chantry doctrine. How would this facilitate equal cultural dialogue between Andrastians and Dalish?

like how Sebastian tried to open up a religious dialogue with Merrill?

 

that wasn't stopped in its tracks by an Andrastian

[Xilizhra]

That's a false dichotomy. If the only choices were to either live as the Dalish or as the city elves have done so far, then maybe living as the Dalish do would be the better choice. Not necessarily: the Dalish have a better standard of life, but the city elves are presented with more individual opportunities. But it doesn't matter, because I've been arguing that elves need to fight for an equal place in Thedan society, and that doesn't mean Alienages and oppression, does it.

 

But of course, 'humans won't allow it!' Not without a fight, they won't. So fight. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it doesn't happen at all if you don't work for it. Many humans already accept elves as equals, work with that. It isn't: 'Excuse me, can we be equal citizens and valued members of society? No? Okay then, we'll just go back to moaning and girning about our cruel fate for another few hundred years.'

So, you're fine with a fight? Very well, but it'll be a bloody one and it will probably have to be dirty.

 

 

like how Sebastian tried to open up a religious dialogue with Merrill?

 

that wasn't stopped in its tracks by an Andrastian

So Merrill asks one salient question and Sebastian never brings it up again? I think that it was.

[MoonDrummer]

That's a false dichotomy. If the only choices were to either live as the Dalish or as the city elves have done so far, then maybe living as the Dalish do would be the better choice. Not necessarily: the Dalish have a better standard of life, but the city elves are presented with more individual opportunities. But it doesn't matter, because I've been arguing that elves need to fight for an equal place in Thedan society, and that doesn't mean Alienages and oppression, does it.

 

But of course, 'humans won't allow it!' Not without a fight, they won't. So fight. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it doesn't happen at all if you don't work for it. Many humans already accept elves as equals, work with that. It isn't: 'Excuse me, can we be equal citizens and valued members of society? No? Okay then, we'll just go back to moaning and girning about our cruel fate for another few hundred years.'

You need to realise that Elves only exist in Thedas because Humans allow them to. City Elves provide a cheap source of labour, it is the only thing that makes them useless, as soon as they go on strike or rebel they get purged, easily. This has happened in Denerim and Halamshiral. Even the Dalish only exist because it is just too much effort. If they started actually being a nuisance, they would be wiped out.

[Addai]

Hence why I prefer the broader termed "discussion" thread titling.

It dissuades that notion.

Elf "discussions" end up with elf haters blowing threads apart. It's a miracle this one has lasted this long without that happening.
 

Are you female? Do you like having the vote? I do. Are you okay with sexual harassment in the workplace? Do you enjoy back breaking labour from dawn to dusk? I don't. What are your feelings on child labour? Segregation? Should homosexuality be illegal? Do you enjoy computer games and spare time in which to play them?

I remember the society into which I was born, and I look at the society in which we live today, and yes, it is an improvement, and not only because of 'conveniences' such as i-phones and the internet. It's easy to idealise the past and fool yourself into thinking that we were better then, more 'spiritual' or more 'in touch with ourselves' and so on, but poke it even just a little and it's rubbish.

Modernity has created a lot of wealth for a lot of people, I grant you. At the cost of those oceans of blood I mentioned. We're not done filling oceans, either. Do you like the possibility of total annihilation?

You can continue to believe that those things came about by "social change," and I'll continue believing they came about because of guns and money- and will disappear just as quickly when the money's gone. I think, all told, that I still sleep better at night, since I don't worry about changing the world. But, this is off topic and a bit esoteric.

[Steelcan]

Elf "discussions" end up with elf haters blowing threads apart. It's a miracle this one has lasted this long without that happening.

we have a reputation to uphold, it'd look poor if we let one slide

[dragonflight288]

You need to realise that Elves only exist in Thedas because Humans allow them to. City Elves provide a cheap source of labour, it is the only thing that makes them useless, as soon as they go on strike or rebel they get purged, easily. This has happened in Denerim and Halamshiral. Even the Dalish only exist because it is just too much effort. If they started actually being a nuisance, they would be wiped out.

 

Well, I actually sort of disagree that elves provide cheap labor. Well, they do provide cheap labor, but I disagree with how they're seen as valuable if only for that.

 

Most certainly to nobles as servants, but as we know from the human noble origin in Origins if you talk to that one elven handmaiden, she is raising her daughter Amethyne to not have high hopes because servant is pretty much the pinnacle of what elves are expected to achieve in society, and she felt well off compared to others of her kind because she was the handmaid of a noble. 

 

But in many other cases I see plenty of examples of elves being mistreated or not even qualifying as people merely because of the shape of their ears. There's that one scout in Haven who is surprised to be working for Charter, an elf and ends up apologizing for calling her a knife-ear earlier (example of a human changing as he got to know an elf) but then you have that guy in Skyhold who doesn't even want to work with elves if he can at all help it, much to the sarcastic commentary of the dwarf he talks to. 

 

The elves in Lothering are practically abandoned and no one is willing to help them after being attacked by bandits. 

 

The city elf codex, if you're a city elf, will talk about how elves leave the alienages (and get called knife-ears by other city elves) and they are lucky if whatever homes they build and businesses they start aren't burnt to the ground by racist humans, and can even make it back to the alienage. 

 

We know that after 700 years, the Dalish haven't really improved their fortunes, and neither have the City Elves. Staying separate from humans has not helped them find a land they could call their own. Integrating with humans and adopting their religion hasn't at all helped them appease the humans and make them want to treat them any better, and instead regularly abuses them, and life can be short and bloody. 

 

Working with humans hasn't worked, and avoiding them isn't working. If the elves want a land that they can call their own and the respect of the humans, enough to at least keep them from committing genocide, it'll probably require a great deal of violence and blood. 

 

Given the setting, it's also the only realistic option unless something happens in a DLC or future game like a natural disaster wipes out the humans in an area and the elves take control of the area because superstition keeps humans away, or something like that. 

[In Exile]

The problem is that, ultimately, the elven problem is a human problem. Human racism is the source of the vast majority of the problems of both city and Dalish elves, and Sera completely ignores this.

I disagree. What it means to be an elf - and what elves need to do moving forward as to their identity - is largely separate from humans being racist.

Human racism is an obstacle for them to confront once they sort out what they want to be and want path they want to follow, but the question of their identity should be a thing decided indepdent of racism.

[ComedicSociopathy]

snip 

 

This is why I think the whole lot of them should pack up their bags and leave. Being terrible to elves is a celebrated multinational sport in most of Thedas and the chances of that changing anytime soon is slim. I mean, besides Briala, whose rise to power is highly determinant in Inquisition and therefore unlikely to have much an overarching impact on the Dragon Age universe besides a few passing references in the future games and story, Solas and whatever he has planned is the best hope for the elves. 

 

How sad is that a randomly appearing god has to possibly rework the very fabric of reality to ensure that the elves get a better chance of having an actual future. 

[Steelcan]

I doubt Solas can really do much for them in the long run