1602 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

They are a unique culture with what is to them sacred traditions carried down for thousands of years. They are not "feeling sorry for themselves". To the Dalish mind they are the last remnants of elven distinctiveness, of elven culture and language and traditions. Those are powerful motivators to stay apart. Not to mention that the humans and city elves want nothing to do with the Dalish. They do not want to exchange ideas and views. They want to destroy them. The Chantry see them as a direct threat because they present an alternative religion.

That they are part of the same world as humans does not in any way mean they need to unite with humanity. The same way France isn't going to merge with Somalia any time soon simply because they exist in the same world.

I would also argue that the Dalish do exert some influence. Far more than the City elves at least. The Dalish, as scattered and different as they are, are still independent, as well as armed.

Thedas isn't filled with wonderful democratic counties where you can just "participate" and "join in". The only way to get influence in Thedas is to have enough swords that the other guy takes you seriously.

But those motivations are at their core idiotic. It amounts to nothing more than pining away for a past glory that they essentially believe they have no means of recapturing. This is beyond their myth fundamentally victimising them at absolutely every critical juncture of their history.

The Dalish essentially exist as a people right now because they're seen as irrelevant by the far more numerous and powerful human nations. It's not really defiance when your entire existence is defined by being almost completely invisible in the eyes of the people you're defying.

It would be one thing if humans were actively hunting elves to convert them but we don't see that happening. At most we have some suggestions templars will occasionally go mage hunting, which the Dalish largely deal with by running away.

I think the Dalish are submitting to human authority just as much as the CEs. The only difference is that the CEs historically surrendered to Orlais to avoid aggravating humanity while the Dalish retreated so radically and fundamentally outside of society that they fell outside of human notice.

I get that the Dalish built this chest thumping myth of defiance but it's not really much of anything since they're doing the defying away from human notice.

[Red of Rivia]

Unless he is a real God and goes burning heretics, otherwise , I doubt too.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I doubt Solas can really do much for them in the long run

 

Well, yeah, he's probably going to be the antagonist in the next game and thus likely to ended up with a bad case of head displacement. If that does happen though then I'll hopefully have the opportunity to get back the equipment that damned hobo stole from me. 

 

And I thought Sera was the only elven thief in the party. 

[Assassino01]

But those motivations are at their core idiotic. It amounts to nothing more than pining away for a past glory that they essentially believe they have no means of recapturing. This is beyond their myth fundamentally victimising them at absolutely every critical juncture of their history.

The Dalish essentially exist as a people right now because they're seen as irrelevant by the far more numerous and powerful human nations. It's not really defiance when your entire existence is defined by being almost completely invisible in the eyes of the people you're defying.

It would be one thing if humans were actively hunting elves to convert them but we don't see that happening. At most we have some suggestions templars will occasionally go mage hunting, which the Dalish largely deal with by running away.

I think the Dalish are submitting to human authority just as much as the CEs. The only difference is that the CEs historically surrendered to Orlais to avoid aggravating humanity while the Dalish retreated so radically and fundamentally outside of society that they fell outside of human notice.

I get that the Dalish built this chest thumping myth of defiance but it's not really much of anything since they're doing the defying away from human notice.

 

If you are so quick to dismiss a people's culture and history, then I do not think any discussion between us can be productive. 

 

I would disagree with your assessment that the Dalish are only "allowed to live" because they do not make a fuss. We know many clans actively fight humans, and raid trade caravans and human settlements. So we know some clans fight, some do not. 

 

The real reason is that it's far more bother than it's worth to hunt hundreds of clans of heavily armed people in remote areas all over Thedas. Wiping out the Dalish is more or less impossible in the short term.

 

Regardless it is not the goal of the Dalish to seek to change human society. Their goal is to preserve as much of their culture as possible. A worthy goal in my opinion. 

[Steelcan]

if all the human nations of Thedas decided to eradicate the Dalish, I doubt it'd be an overly difficult endeavor

[Dorrieb]

You can continue to believe that those things came about by "social change," and I'll continue believing they came about because of guns and money- and will disappear just as quickly when the money's gone. I think, all told, that I still sleep better at night, since I don't worry about changing the world. But, this is off topic and a bit esoteric.

 

No, I think it's very apposite, because if civilisation is only an illusion and we are all savage beasts at heart, then you are right about everything else. But if mutual aid and cooperation are evolutionary facts and people can ultimately be trusted to look out for each other in the end (with some bumps along the way), then I'm right. It's at the core of what you and I believe, which in your case seems to be a very low opinion of humanity as a species. I believe the opposite, I think that left to ourselves people will always come together and help each other.

[ComedicSociopathy]

if all the human nations of Thedas decided to eradicate the Dalish, I doubt it'd be an overly difficult endeavor

 

I don't think it would be that easy.

 

The Dalish are divided across Thedas and are masters of staying irrelevant and far removed from others. Honestly, though such an extermination plan would never happen. The human kingdoms don't care about the Dalish unless there's a Blight happening. They don't have an organized military force. They don't have central leadership. They don't have any land. They don't access to world-shaking magics. And they don't have anything in terms of resources that are notable, besides maybe ironbark. 

 

It would be like the United States sending their entire military force on a genocidal campaign against the island country of Palau. Why bother? 

 

Now Briala and the Orlesians city elves are a group that could manage to be a noteworthy thorn in the side of humanity, if only because of the eluvians. They'd probably all die eventually but there better organized then the Dalish and have an useful secret weapon. Sort of like the French Resistance if I had to use a real world parallel. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I doubt Solas can really do much for them in the long run

Untrue!

He can cause thousands to die in a futile cause that results in nothing.

[Dorrieb]

If city elves changing their lot was as easy as "stand up and fight!", how come most attempts so far has led to lynches, race riots, and purges? Those that try to move out of alienages find themselves on the receiving end of looting and arson at best, dead in a pauper's field at worst. Elves who try to rise above their station (like marry a rich human or become a noble) often find themselves on the receiving end of violence, bigotry, race riots, and lynching. Those who try to openly rebel often find themselves purged, like the Denerim Alienage under Vaughan and Howe, and the Val Royeaux Alienage purged under Celene during her power struggle with Gaspard. (3,000 elves cut down; that's nothing to sneeze at.)

 

When did I ever say it would be easy? I've kept saying all along that it's going to be a struggle. I said it in the very paragraph you're responding to, for heaven's sake. It may not have occurred to you that in real life, people have faced up to lynchings, race riots, and purges in their fight for equality. These things happened, and people died, and they kept fighting for their rights anyway.

 

If no one fought for their rights for fear of being hurt, you and I would be serfs today.

[Xilizhra]

When did I ever say it would be easy? I've kept saying all along that it's going to be a struggle. I said it in the very paragraph you're responding to, for heaven's sake. It may not have occurred to you that in real life, people have faced up to lynchings, race riots, and purges in their fight for equality. These things happened, and people died, and they kept fighting for their rights anyway.

 

If no one fought for their rights for fear of being hurt, you and I would be serfs today.

So you're prepared for it to come to war? How should it be fought? Is there a realistic chance for victory anytime soon?

[dragonflight288]

When did I ever say it would be easy? I've kept saying all along that it's going to be a struggle. I said it in the very paragraph you're responding to, for heaven's sake. It may not have occurred to you that in real life, people have faced up to lynchings, race riots, and purges in their fight for equality. These things happened, and people died, and they kept fighting for their rights anyway.

 

If no one fought for their rights for fear of being hurt, you and I would be serfs today.

 

But it also requires enough humans in this case to see the injustice that elves face, and have the courage to do something about it as well. To set aside their bigotry, a bigotry that for centuries has also been propagated by the main religion of everyone with the whole removing the Canticle of Shartan and preaching that elves have turned further from the Maker than humans, ironic considering that it was a human who made the Maker turn his back on the people a second time, is a very big step. 

 

I agree with First/Keeper Lanaya in Origins. If there is to be progress and peace, it'll be the humans who have to take the first step. 

[Duncan of Rivain]

The elves were abandoned by their gods they deserve their fate, one race to rule them all. Human over those knife ear twigs.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The elves were abandoned by their gods they deserve their fate, one race to rule them all. Human over those knife ear twigs.

 

Um...

 

Didn't the Maker abandon the humans as well. Furthermore, the Creators didn't choose to abandon the elves. They were all tricked by a certain elven hobo. 

[Dorrieb]

But it also requires enough humans in this case to see the injustice that elves face, and have the courage to do something about it as well. To set aside their bigotry, a bigotry that for centuries has also been propagated by the main religion of everyone with the whole removing the Canticle of Shartan and preaching that elves have turned further from the Maker than humans, ironic considering that it was a human who made the Maker turn his back on the people a second time, is a very big step. 

 

I agree with First/Keeper Lanaya in Origins. If there is to be progress and peace, it'll be the humans who have to take the first step. 

 

Hence why I've been saying 'find common cause with others'. For example, oppressed Orlesian peasants and oppressed elves are natural allies. The only obstacle to that is that they have been taught to fear and hate elves as savages, so show them otherwise. You're not going to do it by isolating yourself and keeping separate from them, you have to be a part of the community and contribute. Find things in common with them. Adult humans of today may never get past 'You're not so bad for a knife-ear,' but their children will grow up used to seeing you as just another person, and your children will grow up with human friends. And the next time there's a purge of the Alienage, you will find that there are humans standing on your side of the line.

[Red of Rivia]

But it also requires enough humans in this case to see the injustice that elves face, and have the courage to do something about it as well. To set aside their bigotry, a bigotry that for centuries has also been propagated by the main religion of everyone with the whole removing the Canticle of Shartan and preaching that elves have turned further from the Maker than humans, ironic considering that it was a human who made the Maker turn his back on the people a second time, is a very big step. 

 

I agree with First/Keeper Lanaya in Origins. If there is to be progress and peace, it'll be the humans who have to take the first step. 

The elves have nothing, they are not a real danger, we have to admit that and I doubt they will be one day...for countless reasons we already know, for their situation improves, they need more human than ever.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Hence why I've been saying 'find common cause with others'. For example, oppressed Orlesian peasants and oppressed elves are natural allies. The only obstacle to that is that they have been taught to fear and hate elves as savages, so show them otherwise. You're not going to do it by isolating yourself and keeping separate from them, you have to be a part of the community and contribute. Find things in common with them. Adult humans of today may never get past 'You're not so bad for a knife-ear,' but their children will grow up used to seeing you as just another person, and your children will grow up with human friends. And the next time there's a purge of the Alienage, you will find that there are humans standing on your side of the line.

 

The city elves don't choose to isolate themselves from humans. Its forced upon them by a weird set of laws that are oddly similar to how mages are treated, but without any of the cold pragmatism or common sense reasoning. City elves are separated from humans because... I don't know, forcing these people into tiny confinements is bloody hilarious apparently. 

 

Also, what exactly have the city elves done to prove to the Orlesian peasantry or the peasantry of any human kingdom that there horrible savages that are no better then those dirty forest dwelling Dalish. Nothing is the answer. Beside Chantry nonsense telling the elves are further removed from the Maker there's no recent historical events to prove that the city elves are inferior or dangerous to humanity. So why treat them like crap?

 

Honestly, I think it just comes down to humans being allowed to whatever they want to elves without even the chance of being punished by any real authority. Give anyone that type of leeway and there going to abuse it. We've seen it with Templars towards mages and Tevinters towards their slaves. 

[dragonflight288]

Hence why I've been saying 'find common cause with others'. For example, oppressed Orlesian peasants and oppressed elves are natural allies. The only obstacle to that is that they have been taught to fear and hate elves as savages, so show them otherwise. You're not going to do it by isolating yourself and keeping separate from them, you have to be a part of the community and contribute. Find things in common with them. Adult humans of today may never get past 'You're not so bad for a knife-ear,' but their children will grow up used to seeing you as just another person, and your children will grow up with human friends. And the next time there's a purge of the Alienage, you will find that there are humans standing on your side of the line.

 

But the common cause won't come with the way things are going, and the racism among humans is way too strong at present.

 

It's not that they are seen as savages. City Elves are not. It's that they are seen as less-than-human who barely qualify for personhood.

 

Celene killed 3000 elves in Halamshiral more to save face than actually dealing with the rebellion.

 

Vaughn took women from their own wedding, along with several other women, right in front of a chantry priest with no repercussions save that which a city elf warden brings upon him (illegally.)

 

A magistrate willfully allowed a serial killer to keep at it to save face because his son was only targeting elves and no one considered important was raising a fuss.

 

Aveline heard rumors of her own guards raping an elf but did not investigate until it started affecting diplomacy with the qunari when she couldn't hunt down her brothers who joined the Qun.

 

Elves were taken from Ferelden by Orlais and were pretty much sold as slaves under another name during the events of the Stolen Throne.

 

It's not a perception problem on the elves part. It's arrogance and bigotry on the humans part that is the main contributor to the problem. Elves, after 1000 years of slavery in tevinter then bad blood with the chantry, then absolute subjugation by Orlais and the Chantry with a complete white-washing of history and their accomplishments (city-elf children don't know of any elven heroes and the city elf can make one up for them, when Garahel and Shartan are elven heroes of legend) created an atmosphere where elves are barely glossed over, save for the noble wanting to go 'hunting', whether for Dales in the woods or women in the alienage, or as servants.

 

If there is to be a first step to coexistence, the humans must willingly allow elves to rise above that of servant, or allow elves to leave the alienage and punish those responsible for vandalism or arson harshly.

 

And the Chevalier's regularly killing elves as part of a graduation rite absolutely must stop.

[dragonflight288]

The elves have nothing, they are not a real danger, we have to admit that and I doubt they will be one day...for countless reasons we already know, for their situation improves, they need more human than ever.

 

Or the humans need to acknowledge them as people. 

 

If they want support, outside of the humans who regularly abuse them, often for no more reason than existing with pointy ears, the only people who treat them fairly besides other elves is the qunari. 

 

I respect that the Qunari are quite likely the least racist group out of all of them in the dragon age setting, but it's a sad day indeed when the qun is better than every other society on a social issue. 

[Master Warder Z_]

And the Chevalier's regularly killing elves as part of a graduation rite absolutely must stop.

Your joking right?

[Master Warder Z_]

Or the humans need to acknowledge them as people.

Again your joking right?

[ComedicSociopathy]

Again your joking right?

 

Are you?

[SgtSteel91]

I think a good first step in trying to lessen the bigotry was Divine Leliana opening the priesthood to all races.

[Master Warder Z_]

Are you?

The elves are inferior to humans.

But that said I'm not unconvinced a valley of the flowers solution would be implausible if said correctly.

Give the elves a bit of land somewhere, have their nobility rule it but beholden to the throne of Orlais.

In all things.

It's a premise I've been wondering on for a while.

It gives the rabbits a bit of freedom and Orlais disposable shock troops in wartime.

[Master Warder Z_]

I think a good first step in trying to lessen the bigotry was Divine Leliana opening the priesthood to all races.

I think Leliana should be shanked