1602 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

One of my favorite fantasy authors wrote about the same situation and his elves found this solution.
Rather than attempt to convince humans they are loyal citizens with pointed ears, they acknowledged they would always be seen as different. Thus they acknowledged this distinction and took advantage of it.
They founded their own independent city but rather that fight to keep humans out, they invited them in...as costumers.
Their city caters to the dark desires humans won't admit having.
Want assassins? They have them. Want arena fights to the death? They have them? Want drugs? Right here. Want brothels where elves of both sexes will do anything? They have them.

Since they maintain neutrality and attend to people of all nations, their sovereignty was respected.

[Steelcan]

I doubt the Dalish would ever consider becoming vassals of Tevinter, fighting and dying for their war. I doubt it would be good for them to settle in the war ravaged parts of the Imperium either.

well they don't have many options, continuing on the current path they are on will lead to a footnote in some Thedosian history book "in this year the last Dalish clan was declared extinct following _____"

[Red of Rivia]

I doubt the Dalish would ever consider becoming vassals of Tevinter, fighting and dying for their war. I doubt it would be good for them to settle in the war ravaged parts of the Imperium either.

Well, I think we can take the Witcher account. Nilfgaard created an ''independent'' kingdom for the elves and the kingdom is often attacked by neighbors, even though Nilfgaard vassal. The state was won by the help of elves in Nilfgaard war.

[In Exile]

If you are so quick to dismiss a people's culture and history, then I do not think any discussion between us can be productive.

I would disagree with your assessment that the Dalish are only "allowed to live" because they do not make a fuss. We know many clans actively fight humans, and raid trade caravans and human settlements. So we know some clans fight, some do not.

The real reason is that it's far more bother than it's worth to hunt hundreds of clans of heavily armed people in remote areas all over Thedas. Wiping out the Dalish is more or less impossible in the short term.

Regardless it is not the goal of the Dalish to seek to change human society. Their goal is to preserve as much of their culture as possible. A worthy goal in my opinion.

I think people spent far too much time putting their past on a pedestal without looking at how to move forward. There is a difference between valuing and venerating your culture, and the Dalish are very much in the latter category.

The clans "make a fuss" only in ways that fall beneath human notice. They raid a few caravans like brigands, or occasionally slaughter some unarmed prisoners. They are so irrelevant in the harm they inflict that local lords aren't even motivated to go after them in most cases. When it does happen that a human wants to evict them the Dalish run away so fast you can actually see the cartoonish smoke trail behind them. That isn't defiance.

It's not worth the bother to break the Dalish because they're not doing much of anything that bothers humanity. You'd see a much greater dedication to fighting them if - like in TW - the Dalish were a paramilitary organisation waging war against human society. But they're not. The stupidly suicidal war of the Sco'ia'tel is defiance. Futile and ultimately pointless, but absolutely defiant.

Their version of preserving their history is the same as the CEs: stay outside of human notice and occasionally stand up to them only when you think you can win. That's not defiance.

You can admire the Dalish if you want for not converting but giving in to their self-defeating myth about defiance is another thing entirely.

[In Exile]

But it also requires enough humans in this case to see the injustice that elves face, and have the courage to do something about it as well. To set aside their bigotry, a bigotry that for centuries has also been propagated by the main religion of everyone with the whole removing the Canticle of Shartan and preaching that elves have turned further from the Maker than humans, ironic considering that it was a human who made the Maker turn his back on the people a second time, is a very big step.

I agree with First/Keeper Lanaya in Origins. If there is to be progress and peace, it'll be the humans who have to take the first step.

I think Lanaya is wrong. Look at IRL history. It wasn't the majority that somehow in their magnanimity granted rights to minorities. The minorities fought for their rights often through forms of social unrest and upheaval.

Even if there was a form of political enlightenment sweeping Thedas the elves would have to undermine the social order to build themselves into anything. Without that political reform, the only option for them is outright sedition.

[In Exile]

Your first mistake is in assuming that the point of Dalish existence is to spite humans. That may be one of their rallying cries, but they exist to survive as a people. Humans are irrelevant to that goal.

The fact that the Dalish are hunted by templars and others has been well established in all three games.

I didn't say their goal is to defy humans. I said that IF their goal were to defy humans, they're not doing a good job of it.

And people make far too much of a big deal out of one line that Merrill tells us. In DA2 the elves are outside of Kirkwall for a decade. In all that time the full on loon that is Meredith leaves them alone until Act III, and even then first gives them a diplomatic ultimatum.

The only confrontation with the templars that we see is when they hide a human apotate. That's not to say that somehow the Chantry is in the right here because they are not. But claims of being hunted by the templars are comically overstated based on what we see.

[Dorrieb]

<snip>

 

You keep finding reasons why it can't be done, it's impossible, etc. I'm just drawing ideas from what people like Michael Collins, Emiliano Zapata, and Huey P. Newton have actually done, successfully, in real life. Zapata is especially a good fit because the peasants whom he organised actually had it worse than the elves are shown to do in DA. Again, this happened in real life. Our 'Irregulars' are modeled on Collins' volunteer guerilla fighters. Our guardsmen are modeled on the Black Panthers.

 

And Shianni wasn't murdered when I left it. You must have messed up somehow.

[Steelcan]

You keep finding reasons why it can't be done, it's impossible, etc. I'm just drawing ideas from what people like Michael Collins, Emiliano Zapata, and Huey P. Newton have actually done, successfully, in real life. Zapata is especially a good fit because the peasants whom he organised actually had it worse than the elves are shown to do in DA. Again, this happened in real life. Our 'Irregulars' are modeled on Collins' volunteer guerilla fighters. Our guardsmen are modeled on the Black Panthers.

 

And Shianni wasn't murdered when I left it. You must have messed up somehow.

remind me, how well did Michael Collins fare in the end?

[Maria13]

You keep finding reasons why it can't be done, it's impossible, etc. I'm just drawing ideas from what people like Michael Collins, Emiliano Zapata, and Huey P. Newton have actually done, successfully, in real life. Zapata is especially a good fit because the peasants whom he organised actually had it worse than the elves are shown to do in DA. Again, this happened in real life. Our 'Irregulars' are modeled on Collins' volunteer guerilla fighters. Our guardsmen are modeled on the Black Panthers.

 

And Shianni wasn't murdered when I left it. You must have messed up somehow.

 

You are quite the Rebel, but I approve. Interesting that Solas discusses something similar with Sera..

 

There is also Cuba, which allied itself to the equivalent of the Trevinter empire in order to gain some autonomy

[Maria13]

remind me, how well did Michael Collins fare in the end?

 

Irrelevant. Rebels die but the revolution lives on!

[Red of Rivia]

I can only wonder what kind of revolution will be. 

[Maria13]

I can only wonder what kind of revolution will be. 

 

Huh, and I just compared one of your nations to Trevinter... It's all good...

[Red of Rivia]

Huh, and I just compared one of your nations to Trevinter... It's all good...

It would be the emergence of a new nobility, military power or dictatorship of the people?

[Addai]

I didn't say their goal is to defy humans. I said that IF their goal were to defy humans, they're not doing a good job of it.

And people make far too much of a big deal out of one line that Merrill tells us. In DA2 the elves are outside of Kirkwall for a decade. In all that time the full on loon that is Meredith leaves them alone until Act III, and even then first gives them a diplomatic ultimatum.

The only confrontation with the templars that we see is when they hide a human apotate. That's not to say that somehow the Chantry is in the right here because they are not. But claims of being hunted by the templars are comically overstated based on what we see.

Not based on Morrigan's experiences and the templar corpses we see in the Brecilian Forest which support her account.

DA2's compression of events doesn't make a lot of sense in general. But even so, this could easily be explained by the fact that Kirkwall has crazy blood mages on every street corner.

[Dorrieb]

Irrelevant. Rebels die but the revolution lives on!

 

Yeah, but there's a lesson there too. Collins was shot by the very people he had organised and trained. He was brilliant at the guerrilla war, but he failed when he tried to achieve unity. You could say that he won the war and lost the peace

 

That's why we can't just focus on the 'war' side of things. We have to work at changing people's minds and bringing them together while waging a resistance movement at the same time.

 

Thanks for standing up for me, by the way.

[Steelcan]

if you want an elven state to arise, you need a leader more like Spartacus than Micheal Collins.  Michael Collins had the advantages of an entire nation (relatively) on his side, as well as the British Government being less than adept at dealing with the Irish.

 

Elves aren't really analogous to the pre-independent Irish

[Red of Rivia]

Then will come a new line of elven nobles or will be a dictatorship state?

[Dorrieb]

if you want an elven state to arise, you need a leader more like Spartacus than Micheal Collins.  Michael Collins had the advantages of an entire nation (relatively) on his side, as well as the British Government being less than adept at dealing with the Irish.

 

Elves aren't really analogous to the pre-independent Irish

 

Zapata is a better analogy, I think. I mention Collins because he organised a crack guerilla army from nothing, which we'll need, and Huey Newton because we'll also need a militia similar to the Black Panthers. But none of it will matter if we keep it just elves. We have to get others on our side, and we do that by fighting for them so that they'll fight for us.

[In Exile]

Not based on Morrigan's experiences and the templar corpses we see in the Brecilian Forest which support her account.

DA2's compression of events doesn't make a lot of sense in general. But even so, this could easily be explained by the fact that Kirkwall has crazy blood mages on every street corner.

Except for the fact that we don't hear about any templar encroachment in DAO and we have established human apostates that the templars would and could be hunting in the Brecilian forest.

The templars clearly hunt apostates. We just don't have evidence of them hunting the Dalish tribes en masse.

[Elfyoth]

I don't insult your posts I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

You are right, I wrote it in an inappropiate way. 

 

But from what I see is that you try to spread hate around here. This is an Elven Support Thread, we talk about elven history, and how elves live in Thedas. We dont say in almost all of our posts about how we hate them. Again, I am sorry if  have offended you with my posts, it was inappropiate, but consider what I have said right now. 

[Maria13]

Yeah, but there's a lesson there too. Collins was shot by the very people he had organised and trained. He was brilliant at the guerrilla war, but he failed when he tried to achieve unity. You could say that he won the war and lost the peace

 

That's why we can't just focus on the 'war' side of things. We have to work at changing people's minds and bringing them together while waging a resistance movement at the same time.

 

Thanks for standing up for me, by the way.

 

Ah, I think you were fighting well.

 

And RIP Michael Collins but revolutionaries tend to have short lives... Don't take my word for it...

 

Solas: Once you have the aristocracy weakened, Sera, you will have to redirect your lieutenants.
Sera: Oh, this again. All right, what am I doing?
Solas: Some of your forces, valuable until now, have no interests beyond creating disruption. Chaos for its own sake. They must be repositioned where they can do no harm, or removed if necessary. You replace them with organizers willing to build a new system and carry out the ugly work that must be done.
Sera: What? Why? What ugly work?
Solas: That is up to you. Do you wish to disrupt the nobility, secure a title? Or change the political structure entirely?
Sera: None of it! I don't want any of that!

 

 

I   creepy revolutionary Solas!

[Vit246]

You are right, I wrote it in an inappropiate way. 

 

But from what I see is that you try to spread hate around here. This is an Elven Support Thread, we talk about elven history, and how elves live in Thedas. We dont say in almost all of our posts about how we hate them. Again, I am sorry if  have offended you with my posts, it was inappropiate, but consider what I have said right now. 

 

Stop wasting your time with this poster. He's actually quite insane for an anti-elf.

This is the same guy who justified the fall of the Dales by claiming this:

 

Being shown God, having homes, jobs and salvation handed to them is what happened.

Also the Chantry doesn't need to justify ****

The elves caused it.

 

Kinda like how the historical period Euro-American colonists/imperialists tried to justify what happened to the Native Americans because they got "compensated" with Christianity and "civilization".

[MoonDrummer]

No comment on Michael Collins, except for that his movie was really bad. 

 

Edward Carson though...   

[Red of Rivia]

This revolution can be communist, after all... its born in miserable people. Or simply comes a leader, he declares himself king of the elves, a new elven nobility is born, which seems to make more sense than any other form of government.

[ComedicSociopathy]

If any attempts at a revolution or a social reform in the Chantry or other such human controlled institutions is impossible or incredibly unlikely then what exactly is the point then of the elven struggle?

 

Almost every idea on how to change the city elves and the Dalish elves lives has been shot down in one way or another. If that is the case then what is the solution then? Maintain the status quo? Continue wandering Thedas with no actual plan or hope on finding or reclaiming a homeland or keep on enduring the cruelty of human oppression? 

 

To me that is undeniably boring and quite depressing as well.