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[In Exile]

The Eluvian plot IMO is clearly an artifact from when presumably Briala had a bigger role in the story and, more importantly, when siding with certain people would actually substantively improve one "part" of the Inqusition. I mean you see that in Wicked Hearts each person corresponds to one advisor - Cullen/Gaspard (military), Briala/Leliana (subterfuge), Celene/Josephine (diplomacy). This likely would have tied in with the cut stronghold mechanic. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Since were discussing it, is anyone else really annoyed that Morrigan just upped and left with the eluvian after defeating Corypheus? I mean, its not as if having access to the Crossroads wouldn't be an incredible advantage to the Inquisition. This goes double for a Dalish Inquisitor how would probably like to have an useful piece of their people's heritage. 

[Heimdall]

The Eluvian plot IMO is clearly an artifact from when presumably Briala had a bigger role in the story and, more importantly, when siding with certain people would actually substantively improve one "part" of the Inqusition. I mean you see that in Wicked Hearts each person corresponds to one advisor - Cullen/Gaspard (military), Briala/Leliana (subterfuge), Celene/Josephine (diplomacy). This likely would have tied in with the cut stronghold mechanic. 

Thank you for reminding how much I regret that mechanic was cut  (I'm sure there were legitimate reasons for that, but still...)

 

Generally though, I feel like Inquisition's subplots suffered from trying to do too much in a single game.  The Mage-Templar conflict and the Orlesian Civil war felt like they should have been a bit more drawn out to satisfyingly explore the plotline (I actually don't think the Warden plot suffers from this, though the plot itself relies a bit too much on the wardens holding the idiot ball)

[In Exile]

Since were discussing it, is anyone else really annoyed that Morrigan just upped and left with the eluvian after defeating Corypheus? I mean, its not as if having access to the Crossroads wouldn't be an incredible advantage to the Inquisition. This goes double for a Dalish Inquisitor how would probably like to have an useful piece of their people's heritage. 

 

Not especially. Even assuming you were RPing a Dalish Inquisitor who buys into the view of the Dalish as museum curators, you don't necessarily have to see Morrigan as being beholden to the Inquisition. 

[Heimdall]

Since were discussing it, is anyone else really annoyed that Morrigan just upped and left with the eluvian after defeating Corypheus? I mean, its not as if having access to the Crossroads wouldn't be an incredible advantage to the Inquisition. This goes double for a Dalish Inquisitor how would probably like to have an useful piece of their people's heritage. 

On the other hand, its a convenient backdoor into your own stronghold from anywhere in Thedas and we don't know who else if anyone has access to the Crossroads.

 

Sure, its a shame to lose it for the heritage value and potential study, but I felt a bit leery of the security risk it posed.

 

Wait, how does Morrigan transport the thing anyway?  Its humongous!

[In Exile]

Thank you for reminding how much I regret that mechanic was cut  (I'm sure there were legitimate reasons for that, but still...)

 

Generally though, I feel like Inquisition's subplots suffered from trying to do too much in a single game.  The Mage-Templar conflict and the Orlesian Civil war felt like they should have been a bit more drawn out to satisfyingly explore the plotline (I actually don't think the Warden plot suffers from this, though the plot itself relies a bit too much on the wardens holding the idiot ball)

 

Sowwy!

 

I honestly think DA:I should have entirely ignored Ferelden, and otherwise focused exclusively on three consistent running threads through the game that only get tied at the end: elven uprising, mage/templar war, and orlesian civil war. By having each be a discrete "phase" of the plot, and by making each zone almost wholly independent from these MQs (but not from the red templar or venatori plot), the game essentially seems disjointed. 

 

(I think the Wardens always grip the idiot ball. Aside from the HOF, every single Warden we've seen has done nothing but idiot-balled their way through life. Alistair does it when it comes to Loghain despite his personal resentment, Riordan does it when his plan to stop the AD is literally to jump off a ledge to his almost certain death, Duncan does it when he puts the sole hope for ending the AD in the vanguard at the bottom of a cliff, i.e., the one place none of them can reach the AD, and so on). 

 

... Ahem. Back to elves!

[ComedicSociopathy]

Wait, how does Morrigan transport the thing anyway?  Its humongous!

 

Being able to shapeshift into a dragon comes with a lot of practical perks. 

[dragonflight288]

Despite I like the Qunari, I still think they only help the elves for their own interest. They do not seem to be inclined to help any elf, I think they are more inclined to cease fire in Tevinter. In other words, if the elf want to convert, ok. Otherwise they do not care much.

 

But if an elf chooses to convert, he or she will not be treated any better or worse than any other race. An elf is as equal as the next member of the Qun as any human or dwarf. 

 

Whereas everywhere else the elves are treated worse as par the course because they're elves. And if they want to join the Chantry, well they can't be priests, they can't have jobs outside of an alienage, they can't have weapons in an alienage, and if they complain too loudly, they're liable to get purged by the nobility.

[Xilizhra]

You keep finding reasons why it can't be done, it's impossible, etc. I'm just drawing ideas from what people like Michael Collins, Emiliano Zapata, and Huey P. Newton have actually done, successfully, in real life. Zapata is especially a good fit because the peasants whom he organised actually had it worse than the elves are shown to do in DA. Again, this happened in real life. Our 'Irregulars' are modeled on Collins' volunteer guerilla fighters. Our guardsmen are modeled on the Black Panthers.

 

And Shianni wasn't murdered when I left it. You must have messed up somehow.

Right, great, snazzy. Now, kindly tell me how I'm incorrect in my assessments, please, instead of just giving me links to Wikipedia articles of extremely dubious relevance (all these people are twentieth century rebel leaders, who lived in a world where political philosophy was leaps and bounds ahead of anything in Thedas). If you have specific counters to my problems, then that's great and I'll respect that, but you can't just handwave away legitimate criticism like this. Someone has to point out the problems so that solutions can be found.

[Xilizhra]

Not especially. Even assuming you were RPing a Dalish Inquisitor who buys into the view of the Dalish as museum curators, you don't necessarily have to see Morrigan as being beholden to the Inquisition. 

My own Dalish, were the option to RP properly actually in the game, would absolutely not let Morrigan just leave like that. The Eluvian belongs to the Dalish.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Right, great, snazzy. Now, kindly tell me how I'm incorrect in my assessments, please, instead of just giving me links to Wikipedia articles of extremely dubious relevance (all these people are twentieth century rebel leaders, who lived in a world where political philosophy was leaps and bounds ahead of anything in Thedas). If you have specific counters to my problems, then that's great and I'll respect that, but you can't just handwave away legitimate criticism like this. Someone has to point out the problems so that solutions can be found.

 

Could you state your own solution to the problems faced by the elves of Thedas?

 

Countering other people's arguments is fine and necessary of course, but not coming to the table with your solutions is somewhat detrimental to the argument at hand. Perhaps I missed I them, but I believe that countering others arguments and then coming out with your ideas would make this thread a lot more insightful. 

[Hellion Rex]

My own Dalish, were the option to RP properly actually in the game, would absolutely not let Morrigan just leave like that. The Eluvian belongs to the Dalish.

Hahah, I'd love to see you try to snatch it from her lol,.

[ComedicSociopathy]

My own Dalish, were the option to RP properly actually in the game, would absolutely not let Morrigan just leave like that. The Eluvian belongs to the Dalish.

 

I'd say it has relevance to all of Thedas and should be used to the mutual benefit of everyone willing to share it peacefully. The Inquisition is in a lot ways an alliance of several races after all and I'd think that offering much amazing technology to just the Dalish would likely lead to a lot of bad blood and eventually conflict. 

[Lady Artifice]

The Eluvian plot IMO is clearly an artifact from when presumably Briala had a bigger role in the story and, more importantly, when siding with certain people would actually substantively improve one "part" of the Inqusition. I mean you see that in Wicked Hearts each person corresponds to one advisor - Cullen/Gaspard (military), Briala/Leliana (subterfuge), Celene/Josephine (diplomacy). This likely would have tied in with the cut stronghold mechanic. 

 

And after the dance, each of them recommend that you favor the one that corresponds to them, which I thought was pretty cool. I wish they hadn't gotten rid of that mechanic. 

[Xilizhra]

Could you state your own solution to the problems faced by the elves of Thedas?

 

Countering other people's arguments is fine and necessary of course, but not coming to the table with your solutions is somewhat detrimental to the argument at hand. Perhaps I missed I them, but I believe that countering others arguments and then coming out with your ideas would make this thread a lot more insightful. 

That depends heavily on whatever Solas is planning, and that's something we don't know yet.

 

If I had the choice? Use the hell out of the image of the Dalish Inquisitor as a champion of all people and someone who can work well with the Chantry, but who stands firm in not converting to it. The Herald of Andraste come to show that one doesn't have to hew to Andrastianism necessarily to be blessed. Tie this to my preferred Celene/Briala pairing to uplift the elves of Orlais, and Leliana's opening of the Chantry to all races, and bring them together to hopefully create an overall feeling that the time of oppressing the elves is over. The manipulation of public interest and emotion is, in my opinion, far more effective than trying to convince the public of your ethics and logic; with the Inquisitor, the Divine, and the empress all on one side, many of Thedas' humans should be swayed as well.

 

 

Hahah, I'd love to see you try to snatch it from her lol,.

It's easier to take things off of dead people. It wouldn't be my first solution, but I also wouldn't remove it from the table.

 

 

I'd say it has relevance to all of Thedas and should be used to the mutual benefit of everyone willing to share it peacefully. The Inquisition is in a lot ways an alliance of several races after all and I'd think that offering much amazing technology to just the Dalish would likely lead to a lot of bad blood and eventually conflict. 

Well, I would keep it as Inquisitor for the time being, but it's ultimately the property of elves who built and maintained it before they were murdered and it was ripped away from them.

[Heimdall]

Sowwy!
 
I honestly think DA:I should have entirely ignored Ferelden, and otherwise focused exclusively on three consistent running threads through the game that only get tied at the end: elven uprising, mage/templar war, and orlesian civil war. By having each be a discrete "phase" of the plot, and by making each zone almost wholly independent from these MQs (but not from the red templar or venatori plot), the game essentially seems disjointed.

Looking at it that way, I think cutting out Ferelden might have helped solve their focus issues. I imagine they felt compelled to get Ferelden in there to play on fan nostalgia after so many raged about DA2. Irrelevance of most of the area sidequests to those MQs is probably the result of splicing in too much Skyrim DNA, I hope its a mistake they've learned from. I'd sacrifice half the optional areas for a tighter narrative design and more relevant quests in the areas we actually have to go to. Ah, it's easy and bittersweet to dream of the game that might have been!
 

(I think the Wardens always grip the idiot ball. Aside from the HOF, every single Warden we've seen has done nothing but idiot-balled their way through life. Alistair does it when it comes to Loghain despite his personal resentment, Riordan does it when his plan to stop the AD is literally to jump off a ledge to his almost certain death, Duncan does it when he puts the sole hope for ending the AD in the vanguard at the bottom of a cliff, i.e., the one place none of them can reach the AD, and so on). 
 
... Ahem. Back to elves!

In Riordan's defense, I imagine the hardest part about killing the Archdemon since the loss of the griffins is getting it to stay on the ground long enough to stick a sword in its head (And if the whole body jump thing works by proximity, then killing it at range is a no go). He saw his chance went for it... And it was still a completely harebrained thing to do, but I can see his reasoning.

 

But yes, Elves!

 

I'm pretty much convinced the Elven pantheon has a hand, unwitting or not, in all that's wrong with Thedas...  And the Eluvian is the sort of thing I'd like to keep in a magically sealed vault, to be open for study only under careful supervision.

[Hellion Rex]

.It's easier to take things off of dead people. It wouldn't be my first solution, but I also wouldn't remove it from the table.

 

 

Well, I would argue that her claim as daughter of Mythal supercedes your needs.

[Xilizhra]

Looking at it that way, I think cutting out Ferelden might have helped solve their focus issues. I imagine they felt compelled to get Ferelden in there to play on fan nostalgia after so many raged about DA2. Irrelevance of most of the area sidequests to those MQs is probably the result of splicing in too much Skyrim DNA, I hope its a mistake they've learned from. I'd sacrifice half the optional areas for a tighter narrative design and more relevant quests in the areas we actually have to go to. Ah, it's easy and bittersweet to dream of the game that might have been!

I disagree. I don't think Ferelden was the problem. The Hissing Wastes could have been cut with the dwarf ruins shoved into the Western Approach, the Exalted Plains could have been cut with the Dalish shoved into the Emerald Graves, and the Crestwood plotline could have been moved to the Storm Coast. That produces a nice mix of environments with little redundancy and cuts out the most superfluous plotlines (I really hate the Exalted Plains). But yes, this game was way too damned Skyrimy overall.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That depends heavily on whatever Solas is planning, and that's something we don't know yet.

 

If I had the choice? Use the hell out of the image of the Dalish Inquisitor as a champion of all people and someone who can work well with the Chantry, but who stands firm in not converting to it. The Herald of Andraste come to show that one doesn't have to hew to Andrastianism necessarily to be blessed. Tie this to my preferred Celene/Briala pairing to uplift the elves of Orlais, and Leliana's opening of the Chantry to all races, and bring them together to hopefully create an overall feeling that the time of oppressing the elves is over. The manipulation of public interest and emotion is, in my opinion, far more effective than trying to convince the public of your ethics and logic; with the Inquisitor, the Divine, and the empress all on one side, many of Thedas' humans should be swayed as well.

 

There you go! 

 

Well, I would keep it as Inquisitor for the time being, but it's ultimately the property of elves who built and maintained it before they were murdered and it was ripped away from them.

 

Actually, the ancient elves were the ones who destroyed themselves and ripped the eluvians from their own hands. A growing Tevinter probably didn't help, but Abelas and Morrigan ultimately point the blame to the elves themselves. 

 

Hehe. Silly suicidal ancient elves. Their some much fun. 

[Bad King]

Actually, the ancient elves were the ones who destroyed themselves and ripped the eluvians from their own hands. A growing Tevinter probably didn't help, but Abelas and Morrigan ultimately point the blame to the elves themselves. 

 

Hehe. Silly suicidal ancient elves. Their some much fun. 

 

I thought the ancient elves merely weakened themselves before being destroyed and enslaved by Tevinter. The armies of former elven slaves that followed Shartan had to come from somewhere.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I would argue that her claim as daughter of Mythal supercedes your needs.

I'm the chosen of Mythal. She's just some stolen infant.

 

 

Actually, the ancient elves were the ones who destroyed themselves and ripped the eluvians from their own hands. A growing Tevinter probably didn't help, but Abelas and Morrigan ultimately point the blame to the elves themselves. 

 

Hehe. Silly suicidal ancient elves. Their some much fun. 

Fine. Regardless of whether the elves who had them were murdered by humans or other elves, it's still all elven property.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I thought the ancient elves merely weakened themselves before being destroyed and enslaved by Tevinter. The armies of former elven slaves that followed Shartan had to come from somewhere.

 

(shrug)

 

Maybe. I got the impression that ultimately the ancient elves destroyed themselves until their immortality was gone and the eluvians were closed. Then Tevinter enslaved all that was left. 

[Heimdall]

I disagree. I don't think Ferelden was the problem. The Hissing Wastes could have been cut with the dwarf ruins shoved into the Western Approach, the Exalted Plains could have been cut with the Dalish shoved into the Emerald Graves, and the Crestwood plotline could have been moved to the Storm Coast. That produces a nice mix of environments with little redundancy and cuts out the most superfluous plotlines (I really hate the Exalted Plains). But yes, this game was way too damned Skyrimy overall.

I mention cutting Ferelden because it really only served to isolate the Mage-Templar plot from the potential Civil-War, Elven Rebellion plots in Orlais, carving the game plot into sequences when they might have been better served to thread all those plots throughout the game instead of making them one off missions.

[ComedicSociopathy]

I'm the chosen of Mythal. She's just some stolen infant.

 

Apparently, Mythal herself disagrees and would prefer that her shem daughter gain her knowledge and her godhood. I suppose she thinks Dalish, and Lavellen in particular,  aren't worthy of such a prize. It's not as if she respects you enough to give a straight answer to rather important questions after all. Methinks you should find a new god to champion, or better yet free yourself of all beings unworthy of your devotion, the Maker and Stone included.

 

Atheism FTW. 

 

Fine. Regardless of whether the elves who had them were murdered by humans or other elves, it's still all elven property.

 

Ancient elven property actually. Remember, Abelas considers the Dalish and likely the city elves to be dirty shems undeserving of a such a reward. 

[Xilizhra]

Apparently, Mythal herself disagrees and would prefer that her shem daughter gain her knowledge and her godhood. I suppose she thinks Dalish, and Lavellen in particular,  aren't worthy of such a prize. It's not as if she respects you enough to give a straight answer to rather important questions after all. Methinks you should find a new god to champion, or better yet free yourself of all beings unworthy of your devotion, the Maker and Stone included.

 

Atheism FTW. 

Doesn't the Inquisitor gain Mythal's power by drinking from the Well of Sorrows?

 

 

Ancient elven property actually. Remember, Abelas considers the Dalish and likely the city elves to be dirty shems undeserving of a such a reward. 

They betrayed their descendents by remaining in seclusion for so long. I care nothing for them.