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[dragonflight288]

He didn't let his people suffer when he ignored them. He felt the descendants of the humans who committed such grave crimes against his son and daughter were equally guilty and viewed them as nothing more than mindless beasts.

 

Yes, he knew the truth of the spirit but his grief and rage condemned an entire group for things that none of them in the present were guilty of. 

 

And when his clan became infected, he started working to help them and keep as many of them from turning as he could, but not in a way that would, in essence, give up the grief he holds so tightly. 

 

He was a man, driven by grief, and I think in many ways his grief and pain were the only things of his family he had left, and so he clung to them rather than let go. And somewhere along the lines his death being a key probably played a factor. 

 

He's not an uncaring sociopath who doesn't care about his people. I think his fault is caring too much that it blinded him from reason or sense, and his grief keeps him from even acknowledging that the punishment is now hurting those who are not guilty of the crime, in this case the werewolves. 

 

He is not the only character in-universe who punishes a people collectively for the crimes of their ancestors, or by association for being part of the same group. He's not a hero, I'm not defending him, but it's important to acknowledge the truth of who he is, and who he isn't. 

[Bad King]

He was an uppity, intolerant racist mass murderer.

 

So is Gaspard de Chalons, and yet you appear to adore him! I'm not claiming that Zathrian is a good guy (I'm in favour of him dying at the end of the quest), only that he's more complex than a 'sociopath' and has some redeeming qualities and a sense of morality, even though he did ugly things against the innocent descendants of the people that committed his daughter's rape and children's murders. You can continue to crudely pigeonhole characters into black and white moral categories if you like, but in doing so you're completely some of the complexities of these characters.

 

Regardless, I find your original comment about Zathrian an irrelevant distraction from the matter being discussed which was whether the Dalish 'suck' for a city elf.

[Master Warder Z_]

So is Gaspard de Chalons

Explain.

[In Exile]

He didn't let his people suffer when he ignored them. He felt the descendants of the humans who committed such grave crimes against his son and daughter were equally guilty and viewed them as nothing more than mindless beasts.

Yes, he knew the truth of the spirit but his grief and rage condemned an entire group for things that none of them in the present were guilty of.

And when his clan became infected, he started working to help them and keep as many of them from turning as he could, but not in a way that would, in essence, give up the grief he holds so tightly.

He was a man, driven by grief, and I think in many ways his grief and pain were the only things of his family he had left, and so he clung to them rather than let go. And somewhere along the lines his death being a key probably played a factor.

He's not an uncaring sociopath who doesn't care about his people. I think his fault is caring too much that it blinded him from reason or sense, and his grief keeps him from even acknowledging that the punishment is now hurting those who are not guilty of the crime, in this case the werewolves.

He is not the only character in-universe who punishes a people collectively for the crimes of their ancestors, or by association for being part of the same group. He's not a hero, I'm not defending him, but it's important to acknowledge the truth of who he is, and who he isn't.

You are defending him to a significant degree. The labeling is besides the point. The tenor of your post has three elements: (1) his grief is somehow mitigating; (2) he didn't ignore his people but rather took reasonable steps to save them; (3) his fault is "caring too much".

You've cast him as a tragic figure whose only wrong was punishing the children of the guilty. That's not just a defence but a passionate and forceful one.

I'll respond to the substance in a separate post but there's no basis to conclude you're not defending him (and very forcefully and eloquently at that).

[Xilizhra]

It's more than just being vengeful. Let's ignore what he does to the humans and focus on what he does to the Dalish. First, he perpetrated a fraud that basically mocked their most sacred beliefs about elven immortality. He led them to believe their (racist) views on isolation were justified because of a ritual he concocted. Second, once Witherfang appeared, he effectively let his people continue to suffer rather than do everything in his power (i.e. give up his vengeance) to save them.

That's not exactly caring.

None of that makes a difference to my point, which is that he doesn't fit the clinical definition of a sociopath.

[In Exile]

None of that makes a difference to my point, which is that he doesn't fit the clinical definition of a sociopath.

Sure, but like I said, I think it's a distinction without a difference.

[Xilizhra]

Sure, but like I said, I think it's a distinction without a difference.

Eh. I more or less agree with Dragonflight's summation, really.

[dragonflight288]

You are defending him to a significant degree. The labeling is besides the point. The tenor of your post has three elements: (1) his grief is somehow mitigating; (2) he didn't ignore his people but rather took reasonable steps to save them; (3) his fault is "caring too much".

You've cast him as a tragic figure whose only wrong was punishing the children of the guilty. That's not just a defence but a passionate and forceful one.

I'll respond to the substance in a separate post but there's no basis to conclude you're not defending him (and very forcefully and eloquently at that).

 

Defending to an extent, yes, in that even characters I don't really care for or have feelings towards, I feel it is best to approach them honestly. Their motivations, their backgrounds, and recognize them and their faults and I see no point in exacerbating existing problems because I don't like a character to the point it causes me to overlook other aspects of them.

 

I don't really like Zathrian in all honesty, and I definitely feel he is wrong and he has lived well past his time. And he most definitely took his vengeance way too far. But that does not make him an unfeeling sociopath, which is what I was trying to lay to rest. 

[In Exile]

 

On WItherfang, Zathrian was actively trying to kill the wolf by sending out hunters/the warden to slay it and take its heart: he did care about his clan enough to try and help them, though he was so consumed by hatred and vengeance that slaying the wolf was the only option for him (and his vengeance was exacerbated when the werewolves slew several members of his clan in order to get what they wanted).

 

That's what makes him incredibly vile. The lives of his people are worth exactly nothing when compared with his pathological vengeance. Sentencing his people to death by werewolf or the very curse he created is worth it in his sick and twisted mind for the sake of continuing to punish a generation of people who's only crime was to be born to the wrong people. 

 

When a Grey Warden shows up, his first reaction is to lie to you to convict you to do his dirty work. He holds the Blight over you like a cudgel. He put his own life and his vengeance above the clan and its safety. That's, again, absolutely vile. 

 

And that's ignoring that his vengeance was a crime a hundred times worse than what was done to his children. 

 

 

IIRC, he wasn't personally perpetuating the idea that he was becoming immortal - perhaps he encouraged it to cover up his blood magic ritual but I think that was members of the clan coming to their own conclusions about him.

 

That's ridiculous. He lived for an unnatural amount. One of the - if not the - most central and sacred Dalish belief is that they could recover their immortality. When he's clearly not aging and he's not correcting people, then not only is he completely shitting on his people's core beliefs, and not only is he just lying to them in perpetuity, but he's actually encouraging cultural isolation and racism. 

 

Regardless, he's hardly the morally black sociopath that some people like to see him as: he was probably once a good person driven by grief and anger into doing morally repugnant things, and even at the time we meet him, he has many redeeming characteristics such as the kindness he shows to Lanaya, Aneirin and the clan and his eventual recognition that he needed to sacrifice himself to undo his past mistakes.

 

The idea that the fact that he somehow doesn't skin babies alive personally wipes away the horror of his centuries (?) of abuse, his absolute betrayal of every one of his people's beliefs, and the fact that he treats the lives of his people as less valuable than punishing the great-great-great-great grandchildren of some criminals is ridiculous. 

 

Defending to an extent, yes, in that even characters I don't really care for or have feelings towards, I feel it is best to approach them honestly. Their motivations, their backgrounds, and recognize them and their faults and I see no point in exacerbating existing problems because I don't like a character to the point it causes me to overlook other aspects of them.

 

I don't really like Zathrian in all honesty, and I definitely feel he is wrong and he has lived well past his time. And he most definitely took his vengeance way too far. But that does not make him an unfeeling sociopath, which is what I was trying to lay to rest. 

 

Like I said: the label is irrelevant. The fact that, again, Zathrian doesn't sit on a skull of bones and skin babies is supposed to be a redeeming feature of his existence is silly. As I said above, the things that Zathrian did were just absolutely vile. Not only in the crimes he perpetrated across generations, but in his absolute betrayal of not just his role as Keeper but his defacating, effectively, on the most sacred beliefs of his people.  

[dragonflight288]

 

 

 

Like I said: the label is irrelevant. The fact that, again, Zathrian doesn't sit on a skull of bones and skin babies is supposed to be a redeeming feature of his existence is silly. As I said above, the things that Zathrian did were just absolutely vile. Not only in the crimes he perpetrated across generations, but in his absolute betrayal of not just his role as Keeper but his defacating, effectively, on the most sacred beliefs of his people.  

 

 

I never said it was a redeeming quality, I said that sometimes it seems like our dislike of a character can make us overlook other aspects of Zathrian. I think he did abandon what it meant to be a keeper, as far as the curse itself and the misconception of his own immortality are concerned.

 

But we also cannot say with absolute certainty that he defecated on the most sacred beliefs of his people since we only see him in the Brecilian Forest dealing with the werewolves and we don't see him say, interact with with his clan in peaceful times or exploring elven ruins or that once every ten-year meeting between the clans. 

 

He was wrong in his actions and his beliefs, even those who really, really like elves say this, and what this argument seems to be is not the nature of his character but the semantics of labeling him a sociopath or not, and if we are overlooking or overstating various aspects of his character. 

 

Your criticisms of him are perfectly valid things, and you have every right to talk about how you don't care about proper labeling or not, but I think you are also taking your dislike of him to the line where you ignore his redeeming aspects.

 

Saving Lanaya, a city elf, from a truly atrocious situation from bandits, and then teaching her magic and giving her a chance to be his First, a position she achieved despite not even being born Dalish to begin with.

 

Taking in Aneirin after he was run through by templars.

 

He's not a hero, he's not even truly benevolent, and he most definitely is in the wrong and his actions are reprehensible, but there's a lot more to him than the curse and the werewolves. 

 

Just like there's a lot more to Meredith than paranoia and overzealotry. Her own apostate sister killed their family and 70 others before being killed by templars.

 

Just like there's more to Loghain than what the game tries to make us feel about him thanks to Ostagar.

 

There's a lot there. That is simply my only point. 

[Addai]

That's what makes him incredibly vile. The lives of his people are worth exactly nothing when compared with his pathological vengeance. Sentencing his people to death by werewolf or the very curse he created is worth it in his sick and twisted mind for the sake of continuing to punish a generation of people who's only crime was to be born to the wrong people.

I think this is a bit harsh. He's trying to save his people- by curing them with Witherfang's heart. That's not sentencing them to anything.

When a Grey Warden shows up, his first reaction is to lie to you to convict you to do his dirty work. He holds the Blight over you like a cudgel. He put his own life and his vengeance above the clan and its safety. That's, again, absolutely vile.

I'm not sure what you think he should do. He can't break the curse without getting to Witherfang, and that's not possible on his own. He's using every avenue to help his clan and it's no more than any of the other treaty signers ask you to do.
 

That's ridiculous. He lived for an unnatural amount. One of the - if not the - most central and sacred Dalish belief is that they could recover their immortality. When he's clearly not aging and he's not correcting people, then not only is he completely shitting on his people's core beliefs, and not only is he just lying to them in perpetuity, but he's actually encouraging cultural isolation and racism.

We don't in fact know how the elves perpetuated their immortality. Solas says it was a byproduct of their magic, so binding to a spirit might not be far off the mark. As for encouraging cultural isolationism, I guess he should have told them to herd themselves into an alienage instead?

Undoubtedly Zathrian should have told the truth, and he shouldn't have kept the curse up so long. He realizes it in the end.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

We don't in fact know how the elves perpetuated their immortality. Solas says it was a byproduct of their magic, so binding to a spirit might not be far off the mark. As for encouraging cultural isolationism, I guess he should have told them to herd themselves into an alienage instead?

 

Actually Solas says immortality was simply part of being elven when my Inquisitor asked if there was a special magic involved. 

[Elfyoth]

Solas also tells Sera, "It is said that we lived at a pace that sustained us for ages."

 

Whatever that means is anyone's guess, but it also points toward immortality coming from being elven rather than magic.

He also said that it comes from being an Elf 

[Addai]

Actually Solas says immortality was simply part of being elven when my Inquisitor asked if there was a special magic involved. 

Right, I got it inverted, he said their magic was a by-product of the immortality. But it's obviously connected- those in Uthenera are said to sustain themselves on the Fade.

[The Hierophant]

The context of the engravings in the temple of Dirthamen have been bothering for while. Did Dirth's followers chop up the head priest on his orders, or did they spaz out because they lost contact with him?

[Reznore57]

The context of the engravings in the temple of Dirthamen have been bothering for while. Did Dirth's followers chop up the head priest on his orders, or did they spaz out because they lost contact with him?

 

From what I've gathered , Dirthamen disappeared, the elves in the temple panicked .The High priest knew some things , but he kept his mouth shut.The rest of the priests chopped him in little pieces .

[Shechinah]

(to Reznore57) Well, it is one way of dealing with a crisis, I suppose.

[In Exile]

From what I've gathered , Dirthamen disappeared, the elves in the temple panicked .The High priest knew some things , but he kept his mouth shut.The rest of the priests chopped him in little pieces .

My understanding was that they were all trapped in there by him. And that's what led to the disaster.

[Hellion Rex]

Right, I got it inverted, he said their magic was a by-product of the immortality. But it's obviously connected- those in Uthenera are said to sustain themselves on the Fade.

One thing I never got though was: is Uthernera the so called "immortality" or was that a different thing entirely?

[In Exile]

One thing I never got though was: is Uthernera the so called "immortality" or was that a different thing entirely?

It's not clear. The apparent description is that it is a form of sleep which lengthens over time and eventually becomes permanent. Servants are seemingly necessary to keep the body alive. Allegedly the spirit is in the Fade.

[Hellion Rex]

It's not clear. The apparent description is that it is a form of sleep which lengthens over time and eventually becomes permanent. Servants are seemingly necessary to keep the body alive. Allegedly the spirit is in the Fade.

Ok, so it's not like they were touting Tolkienesque immortality then.

[In Exile]

Ok, so it's not like they were touting Tolkienesque immortality then.

No. And they were never impossible to kill - just implied to either be ageless or to live for so long they were functionally ageless.

[Hellion Rex]

No. And they were never impossible to kill - just implied to either be ageless or to live for so long they were functionally ageless.

Well Tolkien elves were not impossible to kill lol.

[Addai]

It's not clear. The apparent description is that it is a form of sleep which lengthens over time and eventually becomes permanent. Servants are seemingly necessary to keep the body alive. Allegedly the spirit is in the Fade.

Servants were only required at the beginning until the person learned to draw sustenance completely from the Fade.

I'd say that immortality is related to this and that's why the elves lost immortality as they lost connection with the Fade, possibly because of blood magic? The taint?