1602 réponses à ce sujet

[MoonDrummer]

True, so but we also know from the lore that there are many dalish who don't follow what we have been exposed to for the sake of story telling and the plot.

Well, there's that one Keeper in Inquisition who never did anything wrong.

We need to meet more like him.

Well aside from half of his clan running off and getting killed

[dragonflight288]

Well aside from half of his clan running off and getting killed

 

Only one member of his clan held the idiot ball because he wasn't chosen to be first and got himself killed because he was too proud to admit that he needed more time and wasn't ready to be the First. 

 

His first was investigating Dalish history and that path reveals exactly what happened at Red Crossing and the start of the war between the Dales and Orlais, wasn't breaking any rules or summoning spirits. It was just a dangerous ruin and they got themselves in over their heads on a noble quest to uncover a vital part of history. 

 

Essentially doing what the Dalish stand for. Nothing wrong with what these guys were doing.

 

On a side note, it's important to note (and yes I did both just to compare) that if you give the account of what happened to the Dalish, they acknowledge their own fault in what happened and send a mourning halla to Red Crossing, one of their most sacred animals, but if you give it to the Chantry they whitewash the humans fault of what happened and make it out to be nothing but the savage Dalish. In that regard the Chantry is editing history to make the elves look like the evil savages and the humans completely innocent regardless that both sides hold a share of the blame.

[Addai]

On the flip side, what percentage of Elven Keepers we've met have completely disregarded the supposed Elven taboo against spirit magic?  Zathrian, Merrill, Merethari, the Keeper in TME.  Unless I'm mistaken, that's a pretty strong majority of Keepers we've been exposed to.  Perhaps this is a flaw in BioWare's storytelling or world building, but we haven't really had the idea that these are exceptions to the rule baselined for us through experience.  There might be vague mentions hidden in codex entries of offhand comments, but what we are shown time and time again are Elven Keepers screwing over everyone they care about via blood/spirit magic.
 
By contrast, human super-asses are generally shown to be the villian or at least a smaller percentage of every human we meet.  There are fewer Vaughns or Alriks per capita, if you will. 
 
When the majority of examples you interact with tend to act the same way, it is not unreasonable to assume that is the norm rather than the exception.  Just as one would assume it is the norm for humans to treat elves as inferior, it is not unreasonable to assume that elven keepers don't tend to practice what they preach.

Two of the recent examples (Merrill/ Marethari and Thelhen) are similar in that they're trying to recover lost elven lore from spirits. I see it as a thematic callback to when Tevinters learned blood magic by talking to spirits. And yes, the results are tragic. I'm sure that's deliberate, from a storytelling standpoint.

[Nelyafinwe]

That's my theory too. So if you see seven very tall angry elves heading your way run! Solas is also really just Aang from Avatar in disguise. Think Cassandra could pull off being Aragorn and Oghren could be Gimli? Sera could be the new Legolas without question.

i think Cassandra would bs a great Aragron:) she's got the whole I don't want a throne part down pat! Oh Sera and Oghren XD the banter would be sweet. I swear though if the next game involves the main character and company retrieving stone that shines with incomparable brilliance I'm outta there. Nothing good comes from those rocks. EVER.

[wiccame]

I love the Dalish story. Tragic but hopeful. Or should that be hopeful but tragic?

 

They struggle for years to regain their past, piecing together mere fragments and interpreting them the best they can, they may have gotten it mostly wrong but that struggle gave them something to strive for and improve themselves. 

Regardless of what their history actually is, they've built something out of that that has kept them going and given them hope and created a better culture, and yes I am going to say it, which is more than city elves have done, who have accepted their fates and still continue to live the hardship life forced upon them by humans.

[Elfyoth]

i think Cassandra would bs a great Aragron:) she's got the whole I don't want a throne part down pat! Oh Sera and Oghren XD the banter would be sweet. I swear though if the next game involves the main character and company retrieving stone that shine with incomparable brilliance I'm outta there. Nothing good comes from those rocks. EVER.

Aragon? You mean the king from LOTR?  Thats Alistair in the DA universe e  

[Eliastion]

Why don't elves wear shoes? I thought it was just just a dalish thing but some of the city elves do it too, and they are gonna be trudging through all kinds of **** in the alienages.

The true answer is "to put emphasis on them being closer to Nature" or some BS along those lines. When I learned that yeah, it was a deliberate decision to have the wilderness-dwelling nomads willingly discard any footwear... shoes are not a fashion choice damnit!
Ok Leliana. Not only a fashion choice, is that ok? I mean they are important. Happy now? I thought so.

And on a side note, the amount of seemingly completely serious responses I got to my two previous posts make me somewhat sad... I'll just have to comfort myself with the thought that, while taking my "embrace your inner prejudiced jerk" (pretty much literally spelled that way) message somehow managed to be taken seriously, people generally tried to argue with it rather than agree

[Steelcan]

why are people sullying the good name of the Noldor by comparing them to these forest rats in DA?

[MoonDrummer]

Who's noldor?

[LOLandStuff]

Some foppish dandy elves. Like all elves.

If they don't gnaw on weed and sniff a flower, they're these holier than thou macaroni.

[Rekkampum]

Merrill was never a Keeper and she left her clan so she doesn't count. 

 

EDIT: Also, Merethari to our knowledge never practiced spirit magic. She merely allowed herself t get possessed by a spirit already sundered from the Fade because she was so insistent she knew more about eluvians (without doing any research at all) than Merrill. 

 

And out of every mage we meet, Merrill is the only one who willingly brings back up to kill her should the worst happen, so that makes her smarter than the vast majority of mages that we meet. 

 

And my dalish Inquisitor ended up becoming a Necromancer, so he practiced spirit magic and wasn't "mwahahaha, evil villain for the sake of it."

 

Unless we want to count Cassandra's uncle on the same caliber as Zathrian because he's a mortalitasi. 

 

 

That's different because Mortalitasi are a very common aspect of Nevarran culture, so I don't think that comparison would fit.

[TK514]

True, so but we also know from the lore that there are many dalish who don't follow what we have been exposed to for the sake of story telling and the plot. 

 

Well, there's that one Keeper in Inquisition who never did anything wrong. 

 

We need to meet more like him. 

 

But that is my point.  The only way we 'know' that is codex entries and offhand comments.  The majority of what we experience, however, is the opposite.  We don't have enough 'good' Dalish Keeper personal experiences to put the bad ones in proper perspective.

 

On the last point, however, we definitely agree.  We do need to meet more like the Keeper in Inquisition.  He may not do much, but at least he doesn't risk his clan for selfish reasons by creating werewolves, consorting with demons, or getting possessed.  I would enjoy seeing more positive representations of Keepers/Firsts.  I feel like the Clan in Inquisition was a cop-out, and the Exalted Plans/Emerald Graves zones were a huge missed opportunity.  The only thing BioWare managed to do with those zones was drive home the point that the elves don't have anything like the numbers in the area to even consider taking back the Dales.  Between the heavy troop presence in the Exalted Plains and the heavy rebel presence in the Emerald Graves, The Dales are All Orlesian, All the Time.

[Xilizhra]

But that is my point.  The only way we 'know' that is codex entries and offhand comments.  The majority of what we experience, however, is the opposite.  We don't have enough 'good' Dalish Keeper personal experiences to put the bad ones in proper perspective.

 

On the last point, however, we definitely agree.  We do need to meet more like the Keeper in Inquisition.  He may not do much, but at least he doesn't risk his clan for selfish reasons by creating werewolves, consorting with demons, or getting possessed.  I would enjoy seeing more positive representations of Keepers/Firsts.  I feel like the Clan in Inquisition was a cop-out, and the Exalted Plans/Emerald Graves zones were a huge missed opportunity.  The only thing BioWare managed to do with those zones was drive home the point that the elves don't have anything like the numbers in the area to even consider taking back the Dales.  Between the heavy troop presence in the Exalted Plains and the heavy rebel presence in the Emerald Graves, The Dales are All Orlesian, All the Time.

I sort of wish I could side with the undead and just turn the whole place into a graveyard.

[Red of Rivia]

If we look at it this way, the elves of Norse mythology are the original and there they have a world to themselves. 

[Nelyafinwe]

Who's noldor?

you don't know who the Noldor are?

Here's a quick summary:
According to legend, the clan was founded by Tata, the second Elf to awake at Cuiviénen, his spouse Tatië and their 54 companions, but it was Finwë, the first Ñoldor to come to Valinor with Oromë, who became their King, and led most of them to Valinor.
The Noldor were accounted the greatest of the Elves and all the peoples in Middle-earth in lore, warfare and crafts. In Valinor "great became their knowledge and their skill; yet even greater was their thirst for more knowledge, and in many things they soon surpassed their teachers. The Noldor were changeful in speech, for they had great love of words, and sought ever to find names more fit for all things they knew or imagined". They were beloved of Aulë the Smith, and were the first to discover and carve gems. Their chief dwelling-place was the city of Tirion upon Túna. Among the wisest of the Noldor were Rúmil, creator of the first writing system and author of many books of lore. Fëanor, son of Finwë and Míriel, was the greatest of their craftsmen, "mightiest in skill of word and of hand", and creator of the Silmarils.
The Noldor earned the greatest hatred of Melkor, who envied their prosperity and, most of all, the Silmarils. So he went often among them, offering counsel, and the Noldor hearkened, being eager for lore. But amid his seemingly good advice, Melkor sowed lies to turn one House of the Noldor against another, and in the end the peace in Tirion was poisoned. After threatening his half-brother Fingolfin, Fëanor was banished from Tirion by the Valar, and with him went Finwë his father. Fingolfin remained as the ruler of the Noldor of Tirion.
But Melkor had yet other designs to accomplish. Soon after with the aid of Ungoliant he destroyed the Two Trees, and coming to Formenos he killed Finwë, stole the Silmarils, and departed from Aman. Fëanor, driven by grief and desiring vengeance, rebelled against the Valar by coming back into Tirion and making a speech before the Noldor, in which he persuaded them to leave Valinor, follow Melkor to Middle-earth, and wage war against him for the recovery of the Silmarils. He swore a terrible oath, as did his sons, to pursue Melkor and reclaim the Silmarils at all costs. Fëanor then claimed the title of the High King since his father was dead, but though the greater part of the Noldor still held Fingolfin as King, they followed Fëanor into Exile due to their valor.

The Noldor led by Fëanor demanded that the Teleri let them use their ships. When the Teleri refused, they took the ships by force, committing the first kinslaying. A messenger from the Valar came later and delivered the Doom of Mandos, pronouncing judgment on the Noldor for the Kinslaying and rebellion and warning that if they proceeded they would not recover the Silmarils and moreover would be slain or tormented by grief. At this, some of the Noldor who had no hand in the Kinslaying, including Finarfin son of Finwë and Indis, returned to Valinor, and the Valar forgave them. Other Noldor led by Fingolfin (some of whom were blameless in the Kinslaying) remained determined to leave Valinor for Middle-earth. Prominent among these others was Finarfin's son, Finrod.
The Noldor led by Fëanor crossed the sea to Middle-earth, leaving those led by Fingolfin, his half-brother, behind. Upon his arrival in Middle-earth, Fëanor had the ships burned. When the Noldor led by Fingolfin discovered their betrayal, they went farther north and crossed the sea at the Grinding Ice which cost them many lives.
Fëanor's company was soon attacked by Morgoth. When Fëanor rode too far from his bodyguard during the Dagor-nuin-Giliath, several Balrogs, including their Lord Gothmog, fought him. Despite battling valiantly, Fëanor was mortally wounded and would have been captured and taken to Angband had it not been for the swift arrival of his sons. However, Fëanor died whilst being taken back to his own people.
Because Fëanor had taken the ships and left the Noldor led by his half-brother on the west side of the sea, much enmity remained between the royal Houses of the Noldor. Fingon son of Fingolfin, saved Maedhros Fëanor's son from Morgoth's imprisonment, however, and the feud was settled. Maedhros was due to succeed Fëanor, but he regretted his part of the Kinslaying and left the High Kingship of the Noldor to his uncle Fingolfin, who became the first High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth. His brothers did not agree to this, and began to refer to themselves as the Dispossessed, because the High Kingship had passed them by.
In the north-west of Middle-earth the Noldor made alliance with the Sindar, the Elves of Beleriand, and later with Men of the Three Houses of the Edain. Fingolfin reigned long in the land of Hithlum, and his younger son Turgon built the Hidden City of Gondolin. The Sons of Fëanor ruled the lands in Eastern Beleriand, while Finrod Finarfin's son was the King of Nargothrond and his brothers Angrod and Aegnor held Dorthonion. Fingolfin's reign was marked by warfare against Morgoth and in the year 60 of the First Age after their victory in Dagor Aglareb the Noldor started the Siege of Angband, the great fortress of Morgoth. In the year 455 the Siege was broken by Morgoth in the Dagor Bragollach, in which the north-eastern Elvish realms were conquered. Fingolfin in despair rode to Angband and challenged Morgoth to single combat. He dealt Morgoth seven wounds but perished, and he was succeeded by his eldest son Fingon, who became the second High King of the Noldor in Beleriand.
In the year 472, Maedhros organised an all-out attack on Morgoth and this led to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Betrayed by the new-come Easterlings, the forces of the Noldor, Sindar and Edain were utterly defeated. Fingon the Valiant was slain; he was succeeded by his brother Turgon.
Morgoth scattered the remaining forces of the Sons of Fëanor, and in 495 Nargothrond was also overridden. Turgon had withdrawn to Gondolin which was kept hidden from both Morgoth and other Elves. In 510, Gondolin was betrayed by Maeglin and sacked. During the attack Turgon was killed; however, many of his people escaped and found their way south. Turgon was the last surviving male descendant of Fingolfin, so Gil-galad, great-grandson of Finarfin, became the fourth and last High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth.
Finally the Valar came down to Middle-earth and in the years 545-583 the War of Wrath was fought and Morgoth was cast into the Void. But Beleriand sank into the sea, except for a part of Ossiriand (Lindon), and a few isles. The defeat of Morgoth marked the end of the First Age and the start of the Second.
Most of the Noldor sailed back to Aman at the End of the First Age; but some, like Galadriel daughter of Finarfin or Celebrimbor grandson of Fëanor, refused the pardon of the Valar and remained in Middle-earth. Gil-galad founded a new kingdom at Lindon, and ruled throughout the Second Age, longer than any of the High Kings except for Finwë. But after a while Sauron had replaced his master Morgoth as the Dark Lord. With the aid of the Ruling Ring he fortified Mordor and began the long war with the remaining Elves. He attacked Eregion, destroying it, but was withstood in Rivendell and Lindon. With the aid of the Númenóreans, the Noldor managed to defeat him for a time.
However, in the year 3319 of the Second Age Númenor fell due to Ar-Pharazôn's rebellion against the Valar, in which Sauron had a great part. When Elendil with his sons escaped to Middle-earth and established the realms of Arnor and Gondor, Sauron tried to conquer Gondor before it could take root. Both Elendil and Gil-galad set out for Mordor in the Last Alliance of Men and Elves and defeated Sauron in the Battle of Dagorlad and finally in the Siege of Barad-dûr. There Gil-galad perished, and so ended the High Kingship of the Noldor. Of the descendants of Finwë in Middle-earth, only Galadriel and Elrond Half-elven remained (and the Númenórean Kings through Elrond's twin brother Elros).
In the Third Age, the Noldor in Middle-earth dwindled, and by the end of the Third Age the only big communities of Noldor remaining in Middle-earth were in Rivendell and Lindon. Their further fate of fading utterly from the World was shared by all Elves.
In Valinor:
Finwë, first King.
Fëanor, first son of Finwë; claimed the title after his father's death.
Finarfin, third son of Finwë; ruled the Noldor remaining in Aman.
In Middle-earth:
Fingolfin, second son of Finwë; held to be the High King of the Noldor by the majority of the Noldor after Maedhros son of Fëanor gave up his claims.
Fingon, first son of Fingolfin.
Turgon, second son of Fingolfin.
Gil-galad, great-grandson of Finarfin.
It is not known exactly how Finwë became King: he may have been a descendant of the Noldorin primogenitor Tata, or simply have been accepted as leader based on his status as ambassador to the Valar. The Noldor had many princely houses besides that of Finwë: Glorfindel of Gondolin and Gwindor of Nargothrond, while not related to Finwë, were princes in their own right. These lesser houses held no realms, however: all the Noldorin realms of Beleriand and later Eriador were ruled by a descendant of Finwë.
The Mannish descendants of Elros (the Kings of Arnor) called themselves High Kings, although their authority was only over the Dúnedain. As descendants through the female line Elros and his brother Elrond were not considered eligible, and Elrond indeed never claimed Kingship.
It is perhaps notable that Galadriel, the last of the House of Finwë in Middle-earth (other than the Half-elven) after the fall of Gil-galad, likewise never claimed a title, let alone that of High Queen. Indeed the only known Elven "kingdom" in Middle-earth after the Second Age was the Silvan realm of Mirkwood, ruled by the Sinda Thranduil.
The leaders of the Noldor were all members of the House of Finwë. The descendants of this house were also many of the major historical figures of the Second and Third Ages, culminating in Aragorn II and his wife Arwen.

[LOLandStuff]

[Han Yolo]

So, elves are great. I miss Merrill.

[Nelyafinwe]

sorry the who's Ñoldor got to me.

[jlb524]

So, elves are great. I miss Merrill.

 

I KNOW RIGHT?!??!

[Xilizhra]

I KNOW RIGHT?!??!

Thirded. It's a blasted shame that she couldn't show up in Inquisition.

[jlb524]

Thirded. It's a blasted shame that she couldn't show up in Inquisition.

 

It is because I could see Merrill wanting to help the Inquisition probably more so than the other DA2 companions (Aveline is busy being guard captain, Isabela's off pirating, Sebastian is ruling Starkhaven, Anders would stay away if he's alive).

 

I think Fenris would be a good fit too...he'd enjoy killing Venatori if anything.

[Nelyafinwe]

It is because I could see Merrill wanting to help the Inquisition probably more so than the other DA2 companions (Aveline is busy


being guard captain, Isabela's off pirating, Sebastian is ruling Starkhaven, Anders would stay away if he's alive).

I think Fenris would be a good fit too...he'd enjoy killing Venatori if anything.

I always wanted to see Fenris and Solas meet.

[LobselVith8]

So, elves are great. I miss Merrill.

That would have been great. An intelligent member of the People with knowledge about the Eluvians from her own research of the lore and information she extrapolated from the shard. Her personal story arc could have been tied into Briala's Orlesian network storyline and the Eluvian of the Crossroads.

Given her pro-Dalish outlook, she would have been unique among the companions, advisers, and minor characters.

The elves who she lead could have found sanctuary with the Inquisition as well - a potential myriad of Andrastian, Qunari, and perhaps even Dalish.

For the Dalish Inquisitor, it would have been nice to explore a romance with another elf who liked Dalish culture, and could relate to being an outsider among a sea of shemlen Andrastians.