29 réponses à ce sujet

[roadrunnerNM]

So I'm early (level 8, pre-Skyhold) into a NM + FF playthrough (because I've joined the NM w/o FF = too easy brigade), and at first I was enjoying it -- had some epic fights reminding me of Origins! But now I'm getting a bit frustrated because as we level up, I'm realizing how few mage abilities are useful now. I thought I was going to be able to use abilities like Immolate and Fire/Ice Mine just by being careful about placement. But then I had Viv put down an Ice Mine, and Cass ran right through it. Plus the actual area of effect of spells like Immolate is bigger than the visible indicator you see on-screen. So I thought, "OK, I'll just respec the mages into primarily crowd control abilities." But then I realized how few CC abilities there are ... So my mages are gonna wave their staves around, and cast an occasional barrier or CC ability? My PC is an archer, which seems like a good choice for a FF on playthrough. So anybody care to share strategies for playing with FF on, especially managing the mages? Or perhaps a way to leave FF off, but up the challenge? (I just know someone's gonna say, "Go play Origins again." )

 

Seriously, I know it must be hard to design gameplay to accommodate a wide, wide, wide range of player abilities, but I wish BW could do just that. I mean, I usually think people who complain about a game being too easy are just being l33t a**holes; so if *I* think a game is too easy ... I didn't at first, but after 400 hours, I've got pretty good at it! I don't know, maybe it's like complaining about being bored after 400 hours ... You got your money's worth.

[Kantr]

I think even in Origins many of the skills could adversely affect your party with FF on. Storm of the Century, paralysis glyphs and so on.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I've tried NM+FF, it' can be done but, that means a lot of micro managing mages to place glyphs and AOE damage properly and, moving the rest of the team out of the way of the mage. All ranged would be the exception, then the mages can do more and, the archers will generally stay clear but, then no tank so lots of kiting required on bosses especially.

 

Necor probably provides the most in the way of Support/cc but even then not many spells. KE gets one, So does Rift mage. I don't think the game was intended to be played FF on unless you run a two man team.

[MaxxSteele]

Well you could make gear for your tank with resistance to whatever AoE spells you are using. If that isn't enough use resistance tonics on top of that and basically your tank should be good. It is suppose to be harder right?

[Wrathchilde666]

I'm not really sure what all of the abbreviations in this topic are but I'm getting extremely frustrated by Solas taking down other party members with Immolation. I want him to use it but not when it's going to kill my own party. Is there any mod or tool to return some of the indepth party tactics you could set with earlier games?

[GilgameshX]

Is there any benefit to have friendly fire on? Other then making the game harder?

[rpgplayer1]

DAO was designed with friendly fire in mind.

 

All classes could use ranged weapons and switch weapons inside combat.

There were no AoE melee weapons to make things difficult to mange.

There was AI tactic system in place, so it was expected to automate non-AoE attacks and place AoE attacks manually, when needed, to avoid unwanted casualties.

 

DA2 and DAI, on the other hand were designed without friendly fire in mind, with just giving FF as an option, since it was common fan made request.

 

I loved playing DAO with FF on.

DA2 and DAI are chore, thus I always kept it off.

[Arvaarad]

On my second NM+FF playthrough. It's really not the hassle people make it out to be.

As with Origins, you'll need to pick up crowd control other than taunts in order to use your AoEs effectively. Static cage is the big one, but things like Wall of Ice can also help you cluster your foes without putting an ally in the middle. For crowd control that does FF CC (like Pull of the Abyss), you'll just need to cast it earlier to get that AoE cluster.

Personally, I think FF on is closer to the way the game is meant to be played. Keeps people from pulling BS like "oh, I'll just stand on a fire mine to do massive damage to everything attacking me."

[Hexoduen]

I relied heavily on customizable tactics in Origins and DA2, and enjoyed both these games with friendly fire on 

Since Inquisition doesn't have custom tactics I've turned friendly fire off here. Don't want to micromanage every single step, and most certainly don't want to get killed just because Solas decides to shoot me with a chain lightning 

[Arvaarad]

Don't want to micromanage every single step, and most certainly don't want to get killed just because Solas decides to shoot me with a chain lightning

As I recall, in Origins I usually ended up having to control the mages while the melee characters did their thing. Unless modded tactics were way more advanced, there was no way to set up the scripts so that spells like Cone of Cold (or most glyphs) got used correctly.

Single-target spells, the scripts could handle just fine. But AoE and ground-targeted CC (aka the spells that made mages the most powerful class in Origins) have always been kind of a mess if left to AI.

For example, Glyph of Repulsion was one of the strongest spells in a mage's arsenal, when placed in a way that trapped enemies in an AoE. But good luck explaining that in simple if-then statements.

[Hexoduen]

As I recall, in Origins I usually ended up having to control the mages while the melee characters did their thing. Unless modded tactics were way more advanced, there was no way to set up the scripts so that spells like Cone of Cold (or most glyphs) got used correctly.

Single-target spells, the scripts could handle just fine. But AoE and ground-targeted CC (aka the spells that made mages the most powerful class in Origins) have always been kind of a mess if left to AI.

For example, Glyph of Repulsion was one of the strongest spells in a mage's arsenal, when placed in a way that trapped enemies in an AoE. But good luck explaining that in simple if-then statements.

 

I'd wouldn't use it with glyphs, I place those manually, but I do use custom tactics for most every other AoE (barring Storm of the Century).

 

Cone of Cold when surrounded by at least three enemies. If I see enemies jumping whoever has this tactic, I move away from them and pick the enemies off from a distance (while they're getting frozen ).

 

At the top of the tactics list I have a fireball. It's targeted at enemies who are clustered 4 together. It get's resolved as the first thing in combat, which is usually when enemies stand close to each other, and as before I move away if I see 4 enemies getting too close, they're gonna get burned 

 

In Origins and DA2 we get to choose when companions should use an AoE. It's not perfect, it'd be better if we had a not statement, but even so it's near-perfect compared to the stupidity that happens in Inquisition. Solas keeps killing me with Chain Lightning, Iron Bull keeps smashing me to pieces with Mighty Blow, and so I turn friendly fire off

[Alan Drifter13]

DAO was designed with friendly fire in mind.

 

All classes could use ranged weapons and switch weapons inside combat.

There were no AoE melee weapons to make things difficult to mange.

There was AI tactic system in place, so it was expected to automate non-AoE attacks and place AoE attacks manually, when needed, to avoid unwanted casualties.

 

DA2 and DAI, on the other hand were designed without friendly fire in mind, with just giving FF as an option, since it was common fan made request.

 

I loved playing DAO with FF on.

DA2 and DAI are chore, thus I always kept it off.

 

+1 to this. It's even more obvious in DA:I than DA2. This game's combat system was made with the (cooperative) multiplayer in mind, so the game wants you to play without FF. If you turn it on you'll struggle against the game's mechanics, which only leads to frustration.

[Arvaarad]

Solas keeps killing me with Chain Lightning, Iron Bull keeps smashing me to pieces with Mighty Blow, and so I turn friendly fire off

Chain Lightning isn't safe to use even with microing.

It does quite a bit of damage for a 1-point investment, so the downside is that it has uncontrollable bounces. It's unsafe with FF on... but it's also unsafe around druffalo and gurn. It's a risky spell all around. I don't use it.

[I MajorAssman I]

Not really seeing the big deal on FF, currently runnig a NM FF on with little problem. Inquisitor is a archer assassin, using Sera so the only thing worthy of mention that I'm excluding is explosive shot. Cassadra is my tank so few issues there. Solas is my mage and he has plenty of fire power that works with FF on firewall, stone fist ,veil strike, dispel, winters grasp not upgraded as well. I also believe static cage and energy barrage are safe though I am not using them in this run so I can't confirm. You just have to make a few sacrifices and most of those as the OP has noted fall on the mages.

[Hexoduen]

Chain Lightning isn't safe to use even with microing.

It does quite a bit of damage for a 1-point investment, so the downside is that it has uncontrollable bounces. It's unsafe with FF on... but it's also unsafe around druffalo and gurn. It's a risky spell all around. I don't use it.

 

My chain lightning in Inquisition jumps 4 times, so if I had custom tactics from Origins and DA2 I'd set it up like Morrigan's old fireball spell: Targeted at 4 enemies who are clustered, just sit back and watch the fireworks  

 

In my opinion not only is it a shame that we lost some 60 spells in Inquisition, but to also see custom tactics removed... damn, that hurt

[LPain]

I have played previous installments always FF on and on nightmare. I am wary of expressing my opinions in the forums, but I shall try. 

 

The thing with Inquisition is, that I still feel the microing is a chore: the hold does not always hold, tactical camera is clunky on PC (gets stuck, does not move seamlessly, close to the ground viewpoint is obscured either by a massive texts or enemies or random characters or other obstacles) and viewpoint is even in the furthest setting too near. And often, if you give commands to two at the same time, only the latter will do what he/she is told when you release- if the pause holds at all that is. Moving the tactical camera with mouse and keyboard is like trying to draw a circle by using a line tool only. It is somewhat possible but it is slower to do than it should be really.

 

And the thing is, I love micromanagement, but not with tactical view now. I rather micro in combat mode if I do, by pausing. That said- I enjoy combat, but to me Friendly Fire with this level of tactical control (or camera movement) is way too much of a time sink  - it is very much possible and playable, but with current tools (PC -kb +m) it is not as enjoyable as it should be, due to limitations I mentioned above. I love my viewpoint spinning around like a Kylie Minogue, so that I feel like the god of war who screams orders from high up to my pesky followers (and to see from correct angle where do my aoe lands- to which the best angle is the bird perspective). I will turn the FF on again when I am single, lonely and a millionaire and I got nothing but time. I can live without tactics, as I know better what I want my companions to do and I do not need to pre-program them, but I wish to be in control of a competent npcs instead of trying to babysit disobedient children, whose silly behavior results from some lack of fine-tuning of the PC control design and general problems mentioned above. I do understand people who miss tactics- to me the technical limitations are however bigger obstacle (I did love tactics too, so not undermining the longing at all). I see a room for improvement here, but I am not here to trash the game- quite contrary: I am pleased FF is optional on nightmare (although I would prefer using it, after few improvements) and I am very much so getting kicks out of combat. I am here just to express my own point of view and tell why I do not now use it at the moment.

[I saved Star Wars :D]

If you are playing with FF on, then you will need to micro manage your party accordingly. Clearly, if the AI handled it for us then it wouldn't represent an increase, or much of an increase, in challenge!

[Arvaarad]

My chain lightning in Inquisition jumps 4 times, so if I had custom tactics from Origins and DA2 I'd set it up like Morrigan's old fireball spell: Targeted at 4 enemies who are clustered, just sit back and watch the fireworks

It kind of jumps randomly though. My first playthrough was a mage, so Chain Lightning was a starting spell. I tried really, really hard to make it work, but it would inevitably bounce into the party and utterly wreck 1 or 2 people, no matter how far away we were.

I assume it could still be worth it for a barrier-heavy party (after all, it combos amazingly with weakness to spam Sleep), but I dropped it.

Most of the other spells are way easier to deal with on FF, it's just Chain Lightning that's a pain.

[Rizilliant]

I tried vigorously for hours.. Unfortunately, you wont be able to use abilities like chain lightning, aoe dagger/2handed swords, Whirlwind, Blizzard, Posion Clouds, knockout bomb/powder..

 

Well, to clarify.. You can use them.. But some of them you cannot control where they land.. CHain Lightning being the most notable.. Also keepign in mind, that the AI is just very...Yea..The Posion clouds that detonate from poisoned enemies upon death is another that may get overwhelming, especially since you see no identifiers on enemies without targetting them specifically, and (i think) only in Tact mode.. Timing enemies that are DoT from an upgraded Walking Bomb.. Flask of Fire? Static Charge,... Stormbringer..Upgraded Winters Grasp,Lightning Bolt, Long Shot...Explosive Shot.. Whirling Blades.. Spirit Blade..Shatters from Stone Fists, or Your frost Mage Barriers.. Pull of the Abyss..Theres just so many things to avoid, and hope your allies avoid in Real time.. Traps, etc.. Soem caves, or ladders, i cant even get followers to step over a rock, or climb a ladder if in combat.. Hold Position is inconsistant..

 

Ive been told that the aoe dmg from common attacks from the aoe daggers, and 2handed swords/axes do not do dmg, but i maintain that i was indeed taking dmg from my party members.. Admittedly, this was 2+months ago, so it could have changed, though ive seen to notes stating such..iIm not sure about things like War Horn debuffing friendlies..

 

While i enjoyed, thoroughly, FF play in the older game, i found in a non option in this title.. Its simply too ficused on real time combat, and mindless button mashing to become doable.. And this i tested on trash mobs.. I cant even imagine trying on a dragon.. Having to pull out all your melee for every single aoe attack, charging bull, ground slam, immolate, walking bomb, etc.. Its just badly implemented, and created with little thought to actual game play..

 

I maintain, little testing was done prior to release..

[Sylvius the Mad]

Is there any benefit to have friendly fire on? Other then making the game harder?

Enemies aren't subject to it, regardless of setting, so I'd say no.

[Heyokah]

If you want a true challenge then collect fade touched veridium and/ or bloodstone - the ones with berserker.  You want true nightmare mode?  Well there ya go...

 

I am doing this on my current playthrough as a DW assassin and if something even looks my way I am oneshot haha.

[Auztin]

I actually hit tac cam when ever my Mages shoot an AoE like Ice Mine as example.I even put combat roll on my character as a way to rol away from things.Pretty useful.

[roadrunnerNM]

On my second NM+FF playthrough. It's really not the hassle people make it out to be.

As with Origins, you'll need to pick up crowd control other than taunts in order to use your AoEs effectively. Static cage is the big one, but things like Wall of Ice can also help you cluster your foes without putting an ally in the middle. For crowd control that does FF CC (like Pull of the Abyss), you'll just need to cast it earlier to get that AoE cluster.

Personally, I think FF on is closer to the way the game is meant to be played. Keeps people from pulling BS like "oh, I'll just stand on a fire mine to do massive damage to everything attacking me."

Well, I'm a bit further on ... Static cage is a *huge* help. Thanks for the tip, Arvaarad. I'm about level 11, and pretty much used to the FF now. It takes a bit more micromanagement, especially of the mages, but now I'm used to switching between characters quickly and I know the classes and their abilities; so I know what to have each person doing. I still have the whole party wipe occasionally; so there's still some challenge. It's all good, as Sera would say.

[roadrunnerNM]

If you want a true challenge then collect fade touched veridium and/ or bloodstone - the ones with berserker.  You want true nightmare mode?  Well there ya go...

 

I am doing this on my current playthrough as a DW assassin and if something even looks my way I am oneshot haha.

You know, I might try this, just for the h*ll of it. Just not on the tank!

[Heyokah]

Yeah I just finished with %200 damage to me and 100% damage on Sera and Solas....no way in hell I was putting it on Cassandra.  It was brutal but quite satisfying.  Upgraded regen potions were an absolute must!  hehe.

 

edit -  I believe the 100% came from serpentstone and not bloodstone btw....just looked at my inventory and had 2 fade touched bloodstones so that definitely was not correct.  the 200% came from veridium of that I am certain.