76 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

I don't consider Samara to be the extents that 'Blue' can and may in the future extend to (hypothetical trend in the series, just saying), but in the context of a fighting force (IMO intrinsically at least slightly Renegade, even Liara and her story is something I include here) that Shepard utilizes as effectively henchmen (as per BW's internal wording)... Samara is one of the most Paragon and represents some of the most Paragon views. And yes, some of those may not be comfortable to the True Blue Paragon players like I am mostly.

[KotorEffect3]

Liara and Javik are both adepts and both have completely different ways of looking about things and going about things.

 

Kaidan and Miranda are both sentinels yet both subscribe to vastly different ideologies. 

 

Ashley in ME 3 is pretty much the same thing as Zaeed is.  She carries an assault rifle and a sniper rifle.  She also uses the inferno grenade just like Zaeed.  But unlike Zaeed she is an alliance soldier and she believes in being a part of something bigger than herself.  Zaeed is a merc, a bounty hunter.  A damn good one but at the end of the day he is commited to himself.

[Vazgen]

I'd say that Javik is more of a Vanguard

[KotorEffect3]

I'd say that Javik is more of a Vanguard

Vanguards are close quarter specialists that use their biotics to close distance between themselves and their enemies and then they finish them off with a shotgun or a nova blast.  Javik uses an assault rifle and pistol and all of his abilities are biotic abilities, he does not have any combat based abilities.  Also he is pretty much the same thing as the collector from the MP is and that is classified as an adept.

[Vazgen]

I always viewed Vanguards as combat-oriented Adepts, not necessarily close range fighters. Adepts for me were always pure mage classes, with 90% of their damage coming from powers. Assault Rifles are quite damaging. 

I also remember squad selection screen showing him wielding a shotgun

[General TSAR]

Zaeed is a merc, a bounty hunter.  A damn good one but at the end of the day he is commited to himself.

And Jessie. 

[KotorEffect3]

And Jessie. 

*snif*  How could I forget?  If synthesis is chosen does that mean?  Wait better not go there

[KotorEffect3]

I always viewed Vanguards as combat-oriented Adepts, not necessarily close range fighters. Adepts for me were always pure mage classes, with 90% of their damage coming from powers. Assault Rifles are quite damaging. 

I also remember squad selection screen showing him wielding a shotgun

Well adept Shepard can eventually equip any gun they want.  The way I view it though adepts need something to deal with shielded enemies and a rapid fire weapon like an assault rifle can take care of shields which is something that biotics can't take care of.  So it would make sense for an adept to carry around an assault rifle or an smg.  Javik carries around an assault rifle and Liara uses an smg.   They are basically the same gun just in different sizes.  I always equip my adepts with assault rifles.

 

But when it comes to squadmates the classes tend to get weird anyway.  I don't even know what the hell to classify Thane as.  His weapon loadout and job description screams infiltrator but he uses biotics and has no tech abilities (at least in game, maybe he has some lorewise).

[SwobyJ]

Vanguards are close quarter specialists that use their biotics to close distance between themselves and their enemies and then they finish them off with a shotgun or a nova blast.  Javik uses an assault rifle and pistol and all of his abilities are biotic abilities, he does not have any combat based abilities.  Also he is pretty much the same thing as the collector from the MP is and that is classified as an adept.

 

I'd still say Javik is more of a Vanguard. The Grenade (even being of the Lift variety) helps it. As well as Dark Channel being a damage over time more than a battlefield manipulation ability.

 

He's just significantly more onto the Biotic side of it is all.

 

Some characters defy clear class designations anyway, like Thane. Infiltrator? Adept? (Slightly) Soldier? He has elements of all three (sniper and orientation to sniping bonuses due to shredder, biotics).

 

EDIT: Sorry, missed your earlier comment about Thane.

I like to think of it as... 'Red' characters are mostly clearly defined in the trilogy, 'Blue' characters get a bit weird but still understandable and still trend towards Red aspects in the trilogy, and then there's the sneak up of 'Green' characters (one of the first being Thane, but a couple others) who just screw everything up because we're not ready for Green class setups yet, so they just are some hybid mishmash. Lets see how the next game goes haha.

[SwobyJ]

I always viewed Vanguards as combat-oriented Adepts, not necessarily close range fighters. Adepts for me were always pure mage classes, with 90% of their damage coming from powers. Assault Rifles are quite damaging. 

I also remember squad selection screen showing him wielding a shotgun

 

Vanguards can be more like biotic-oriented Soldiers. Hi (useless) Jacob. And Jack is like a Soldier covered in Biotics layering, but still a Soldier at heart lol - just with extra OOMPH.

[KotorEffect3]

The funny thing is how the certain races tend to lean towards certain classes due to culture or biology.

1. Asari: Being that they are all natural biotics I tend to think of them as adepts or vanguards
2. Turians:  Definitely soldiers, heavy military culture and mindset
3. Krogan: Definitely soldiers with some vanguard battlemasters mixed in.
4. Salarians: Big on tech and infiltration.  Definitly tend to think of them as engineers and infiltrators
5. Quarians: Definitely engineers are primary here.  Since even the least trained of them is still a wiz with an omni-tool
6. Batarians:  This one is a little trickier, but I tend to think of them as combat oriented since they seem pretty big on shocktroopers.  Still they seem to have a degree of proficiency with tech and biotics.
7. Humans: Well I guess we are like the sentinels of the ME universe.  Jack of all trades and master of none.  Humans can be proficient in any one of the classes but pick a specific class and there is a species that seems to do it better.  Biotics?  Yeah we got that but no where near the asari.  Combat?  Sure but we don't have brute strength of the Krogan nor the firepower of the Turians.  Tech?  Yeah humanity has made some pretty big breakthroughs but nowhere near the technical or scientific geniuses found in STG or the engineering expertise found on the flotilla.

[KotorEffect3]

I'd still say Javik is more of a Vanguard. The Grenade (even being of the Lift variety) helps it. As well as Dark Channel being a damage over time more than a battlefield manipulation ability.

 

He's just significantly more onto the Biotic side of it is all.

 

Some characters defy clear class designations anyway, like Thane. Infiltrator? Adept? (Slightly) Soldier? He has elements of all three (sniper and orientation to sniping bonuses due to shredder, biotics).

 

EDIT: Sorry, missed your earlier comment about Thane.

I like to think of it as... 'Red' characters are mostly clearly defined in the trilogy, 'Blue' characters get a bit weird but still understandable and still trend towards Red aspects in the trilogy, and then there's the sneak up of 'Green' characters (one of the first being Thane, but a couple others) who just screw everything up because we're not ready for Green class setups yet, so they just are some hybid mishmash. Lets see how the next game goes haha.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to Javik, to me he is an aggressive adept.  But  I agree when it comes to characters they don't tend to fit into the normal class mold anyways.  Multiplayer gets really whacky with it.  There are soldiers with tech attacks and infiltrators with biotic abilities.

[SwobyJ]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to Javik, to me he is an aggressive adept.  But  I agree when it comes to characters they don't tend to fit into the normal class mold anyways.  Multiplayer gets really whacky with it.  There are soldiers with tech attacks and infiltrators with biotic abilities.

 

I literally did more 'more of a'. I certainly accept the view and maybe even agree(? hmm maybe) that he is an Adept. I just tend to view him as either a Vanguard 'at heart' (though not necessarily one?), or some Green Adept Mutant (using Biotics + Combatish Techniques + Weird New Green Ability?). Haha.

 

ME1 was very clear about classes, though aliens did tweak the concept a bit.

ME2 was largely understandable but imaginative variations on classes, with a couple characters who slightly defied definition.

ME3 both strove to have the ME1 class clarify, while having some characters defy expectations about what the class should even be. I mean WTF is EDI? Engineer? Infiltrator?

 

I like predicting stuff, right or wrong, so I predict that NME will take a sharp turn and give us largely imaginative variations on class (more than ever before), with maybe a couple clear examples (a minority next to the previous games), and even more of an openness to undefinable class states.

 

ME1-3, even when exploring, still went into comfortable class definitions for the most part. And cool. This all provides the useful foundation for the franchise, and shows players what to generally expect. But I don't really necessarily expect, say, the ME1 1-for-each-class simplicity in the next game.

 

Ok rambling.

[SwobyJ]

 

The funny thing is how the certain races tend to lean towards certain classes due to culture or biology.

1. Asari: Being that they are all natural biotics I tend to think of them as adepts or vanguards
2. Turians:  Definitely soldiers, heavy military culture and mindset
3. Krogan: Definitely soldiers with some vanguard battlemasters mixed in.
4. Salarians: Big on tech and infiltration.  Definitly tend to think of them as engineers and infiltrators
5. Quarians: Definitely engineers are primary here.  Since even the least trained of them is still a wiz with an omni-tool
6. Batarians:  This one is a little trickier, but I tend to think of them as combat oriented since they seem pretty big on shocktroopers.  Still they seem to have a degree of proficiency with tech and biotics.
7. Humans: Well I guess we are like the sentinels of the ME universe.  Jack of all trades and master of none.  Humans can be proficient in any one of the classes but pick a specific class and there is a species that seems to do it better.  Biotics?  Yeah we got that but no where near the asari.  Combat?  Sure but we don't have brute strength of the Krogan nor the firepower of the Turians.  Tech?  Yeah humanity has made some pretty big breakthroughs but nowhere near the technical or scientific geniuses found in STG or the engineering expertise found on the flotilla.

 

Like in so much scifi, humans are the generally useful but rarely highly proficient species, who has the potential to be masters in everything one day (which tends to not happen in the timeline of the scifi), and has the more unique property of 'strong will' (or an equally useful thing, depending on the writer). Mass Effect may have some other species that fight for survival more than humans, like Krogan and Vorcha, but Humanity even IRL appears to lean towards the Survival side more than the Empathy (or whatever you wish to call it) side. But it is supposed to be our (uneven overall) balance that propels us forward in space, but keeps us tempered enough to agree to improve when challenged to.

 

So at least the human state in ME1-3 is something I'd say leans towards Soldier, but is very open to versatility with the rest of the classes. Like Shepard IMO. However, I don't think this could be forever. I think if Mass Effect lets humanity get more transhuman (organically or synthetically or both), we'd see the species and protagonist themselves not so much lean towards Soldier, but either get even more equal, or go more towards Biotics (hi Miranda foreshadowing?) or Tech (this might be much later on). Just, again, my predicting.

 

Largely agreed on the rest. IMO due to tech levels being tempered by the Reaper Cycle system, we still haven't seen the full potential of Biotics and especially Tech (yes also Combat, but to a lesser degree - there's only so far it can drastically improve, though it can always improve in itself). Biotics hasn't hit its limit, and Tech absolutely has not. Mass Effect has had its hot wars and gang fights and internal species scuffles and extinction level event - let's see how it handles even more 'special' circumstances that something like an overt 'war' may never fix, but powerful Biotics (and Tech) skills may play a part in. And we have to remember that Biotics' extent of utility has likely not even remotely been reached. Humanity will probs reach for it. lol. Oh humans.

[God]

Ashley in ME 3 is pretty much the same thing as Zaeed is.  She carries an assault rifle and a sniper rifle.  She also uses the inferno grenade just like Zaeed.  But unlike Zaeed she is an alliance soldier and she believes in being a part of something bigger than herself.  Zaeed is a merc, a bounty hunter.  A damn good one but at the end of the day he is commited to himself.

 

I disagree with this notion. If what you say is true, then Zaeed would never have signed on to a suicide mission or offered to fight the Reapers. You make it sound as though he's a coward. If I didn't know better, I'd say it's a paragon bias speaking.

 

I'd say a better comparison is that Ashley is a by-the-book soldier who believes in playing by the rules and the traditional things (honor, duty, god and country species). Zaeed on the other hand isn't afraid to skirt, bend, or break the rules to get the job done, or play dirty outside the law. He's more practical about his efforts and doesn't give a damn about laws that get in his way.

[God]

On the topic of what classes characters are, I see them as this:

 

ME1:

 

Kaidan = sentinel

Ashley = soldier

Garrus = infiltrator

Wrex = vanguard

Tali = engineer

Liara = adept

 

ME2:

 

Jacob = vanguard

Miranda = sentinel

Mordin = engineer

Grunt = soldier

Jack = vanguard

Zaeed = soldier

Kasumi = infiltrator

Samara = adept

Morinth = adept

Thane = vanguard

Legion = Infiltrator

 

ME3:

 

James = soldier

Javik = vanguard

EDI = engineer

[SwobyJ]

Me too, at least mostly, God. The series does stretch the meanings of what each class means though. One Engineer can certainly be drastically different from another, though they can still carry more common traits.

[God]

Me too, at least mostly, God. The series does stretch the meanings of what each class means though. One Engineer can certainly be drastically different from another, though they can still carry more common traits.

 

Yes.

 

Some characters, particularly in ME2 (and Javik) are a bit difficult to classify. 

 

Jacob lacks any real ties to a class. His skillset is based on sub-par biotic and soldier skills. I label him as a vanguard because his skills really don't fit in anywhere else. He lacks any actual tie to a real vanguard. I get the feeling his biotic ability was tacked on by necessity, to maintain continuity with Mass Effect: Galaxy. He should never have been a biotic in the first place.

 

Jack I consider a vanguard due to the focus of her ability and skill set. She's a combat oriented biotic who has a lot more offensive and close-in powers. I also don't think that an adept has to be be the most powerful biotic. I think some people believe that the most powerful biotics (in canon, not necessarily gameplay) have to be adepts. This isn't necessarily true. Both Kaidan and Miranda are considered top-tier human biotics, some of the most gifted human biotics alive (though they never really take this anywhere for Miranda, who I feel was also made a biotic to fulfill the need for a biotic squadmate early in the Mass Effect 2), and they're both Sentinels. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that as far as military biotics go, vanguards and sentinels would be preferable to purely biotic adepts.

 

Samara and Morinth are also harder to classify as well, when taking their weapons into account. 

 

Thane as well is difficult to classify: he's half adept, half infiltrator. 

 

And like with Samara and Morinth, Javik is also harder to really classify.

[SwobyJ]

A few notes, pretty off topic from the thread but oh well.

 

-Jacob is certainly a Vanguard, and more on the Combat side, but he's a crap Vanguard, so bleh.

 

-Jack is enough for me to call her a Vanguard (especially in absence of another ME2 character I can consider a Biotic sided Vanguard, and Thane is hard for me to pin down), but she can be easily specced to basically be a super offensive Adept.

 

-Samara/Morinth is far enough that I can very easily call her a (slightly custom) Adept. And the most Adept of the ME2 team. Though I find ME1-ME3 generally lacks in strong Adepts (even talking less about combat situations and more about character archetype, if that makes sense?). Liara I suppose would go the most there, but I can see characters in future games going even further and being outright Biotic gods/goddesses, with almost no Combat or Tech aspects (even Liara has the slight offensive/gunning capacity, though I attribute much of that to the trilogy's design focus during Shepard the Soldier/Commander's Story).

 

-Looking forward to companions that utterly defy all expectations, Bioware

[KotorEffect3]

I wasn't trying to bash Zaeed.  I love him he's a badass.  I was just trying to use him and Ashley as examples of two people that are virtually identical classwise being completely different in other aspects of their person.  Not trying to make this a paragon vs renegade thing.  I would like to think that is something left back in the old ME 2 days when these boards were filled with Renegade vs Paragon threads.  Besides I wouldn't exactly call Ashley a paragon character.  She is more of a renegon than anything else.

[Display Name Owner]

I always thought Sentinel went well with Paragon. It feels like it goes most with the War Hero background, and it seems like the most support-y class to me.

 

It's funny you'd say Vanguard, because that always felt more renegade to me, all about getting in and destroy destroy destroy. Not that any class can't be either alignment, even the most paragon of paragon Sheps kills many many people in a whole load of inventive ways... burning, exploding, stabbing, freezing - cryo ammo is a pretty horrible way to kill someone.

[SwobyJ]

I wasn't trying to bash Zaeed.  I love him he's a badass.  I was just trying to use him and Ashley as examples of two people that are virtually identical classwise being completely different in other aspects of their person.  Not trying to make this a paragon vs renegade thing.  I would like to think that is something left back in the old ME 2 days when these boards were filled with Renegade vs Paragon threads.  Besides I wouldn't exactly call Ashley a paragon character.  She is more of a renegon than anything else.

 

I consider her Light Renegade. Or yeah, Renegon. Though ME3 takes her even more to the middle, making both VSes seem more on the Paragon side of many things than before. They gave Kaidan a AR and heavier armor, and just softened Ashley's character, merging them into the Paragade toned 'VS'-Man! *superhero music plays*

 

And of course her ME3 abilities take her from ME1 Soldier Soldier Soldier, to ME3 'Alliance Specialist' theme.

[SwobyJ]

I always thought Sentinel went well with Paragon. It feels like it goes most with the War Hero background, and it seems like the most support-y class to me.

 

It's funny you'd say Vanguard, because that always felt more renegade to me, all about getting in and destroy destroy destroy. Not that any class can't be either alignment, even the most paragon of paragon Sheps kills many many people in a whole load of inventive ways... burning, exploding, stabbing, freezing - cryo ammo is a pretty horrible way to kill someone.

 

Depends on how that Vanguard is.

 

How you described it, just doesn't fit my Vanguard I've played 100+ hours with.

 

I rarely Charge. I rarely use a Shotgun. I use plenty of more ranged Biotics, and I suppose I did abuse Nova in ME3 (who didn't?).

 

I considered myself more of a durable and combat-flexible Adept at times. I used lighter weapons (maybe AR at times though), and loved my Pull and Geth Shield Boost (bonus) and Shockwave.

 

If I had the option to only incapacitate or mind whammy enemies, I would take it. I hope we somehow get that in future ME games, making the series move less and less Renegade *centric* for how I feel the gameplay works overall (as a trend). All that stuff has a place, and I appreciate it in Shepard's Story TBH, but I'm ready for MOAR.

[KotorEffect3]

The funny thing about using classes or playstyles to describe a character's personality is that it really doesn't matter.  Even the most paragon Shepard of any class leads a very violent life and has killed hundreds over the course of their career whether they it be they have taken out their enemies with a head shot from a sniper rifle, blasted them in the face with a shotgun, flung them off an edge biotically, incinerated them or froze them with a tech attack, or ran them through with a omni blade.

[SwobyJ]

The funny thing about using classes or playstyles to describe a character's personality is that it really doesn't matter.  Even the most paragon Shepard of any class leads a very violent life and has killed hundreds over the course of their career whether they it be they have taken out their enemies with a head shot from a sniper rifle, blasted them in the face with a shotgun, flung them off an edge biotically, incinerated them or froze them with a tech attack, or ran them through with a omni blade.

 

This is like saying a Paragon and choose Renegade sometimes, to me. Identity can be a mix, but the game has RP alignments to things regardless.

 

I could play D&D and be a Chaotic Evil Paladin. Whoh! How does that work? lol