1664 réponses à ce sujet

[Nami_Tokiwa]

You are right.. Even I still enjoy the game but it had something that confuse me. And you talk my heart out of my mind.
I remember those quests when you have choose kill Wolves or Kill Elves. 
Or even in DA2, you have to choose between kill your friends or not.
Those emotion moments didn't appear much in DAI, you don't even have to choose kill whom or seeing Cory as a real threat.
All I hear is Cory is doing that and done.
In DAO you see the clearly threats from Darkspawn.
In DA2 you see the variety threats from Templars, Mages, Darkspawn and even from Quanri and your Fenris   
In DAI you didn't see much of threats from Cory - which suppose to be appear more than cutscenes and his final battle which was very short and not have much emotions. All you see is Templars are getting more and more being a true threats than Cory.
That is my opinions. DAI is a great game but felt short and lost some moments from me.
 

[Ashen Nedra]

As usual, subjective rambling presented as fact. *Your* Inquisitor has no thoughts, nor feelings, he is a character inside the game, he does not care, furthermore he shows *none* and is incapable of showing any of the aspects you are presenting, and the same goes with your companions.

 

Conflating 'gameplay' mechanics - 'companions will die unless herbs...' - and actual story development is absolute nonsense. You say companions will 'die' if herbs are not collected? Well *show* that. In the actual game, what happens is they fall down and get back up once combat is over.

 

 

 

I hope you have a citation for that.

 

 

 

It is near impossible for DA:I to do this, and if they continue open world content, it needs to be revamped from the ground up. One of the solutions is to have emergent gameplay, but DA:I is much too static for this to happen by design.

 

For example, imagine you run into a poison monster/trap, one of the party gets poisoned. The only way to deal with that is to collect this herb that grows in a dragon's area. Now here is where you can introduce a few choices within the open world scenario. Do you deal with the dragon head-on? Maybe lure it away by killing docile large animals? Or introduce a new sub-quest, say a way to recruit some allies within that map to help you with the dragon (dwarves, elves, villagers etc)? 

 

The very fact that there have to be scripts that change what a character experiences in that open world introduces a linearity to that space (having to make specific choices that lock you out of others), but I argue that is far more preferable than a static map with enemy groups of 3-4 that spawn/wander in preset MMO paths.

TwoWorlds 2 did that in the Savannah (first part of the game): the getting-a-horse-quest, help-a-small-village-to get-its-water-supply-back quest, craft-an-antidote quest... and maybe ten others were connected by story (all are side-quests). And such quests introduced you to game mechanics.

 

It was brilliant.

 

Didn't know it was called emergent gameplay, though.

Modifié par Ashen Nedra, 27 février 2015 - 09:34 .

[Elhanan]

That's not excuse to cut it. Most of us can handle it, and those who don't can do without... there's no reason to cut the best systems from the game because some people don't follow. And dude, every rpg ever almost has attribute points. it isn't new, it isn't complicated, and it's easy to toggle for people who prefer not to do it. Most of the people here enjoy these things though, we aren't idiots, most of us are educated. These are staples of the dragon age series, things that made it unique, and cutting them absolutely sucks... there's no reason for it.

Bioware can include people who can't handle a basic RPG by simple having an "auto level" or "auto-fight" tactic. Hell there are people who can't handle THIS combat system? Should that be automated too? Maybe it should choose our dialogue options for us?

And attribute points and tactics in origins were something I was capable of understanding in grade school... it's not rocket science. And games are going to be pretty lame if their defining feature is "so simple a 10 year old can play it".

Also, in dragon age origins, an elfroot is one copper, 100 copper is a silver, 100 silver is gold... so the price of elfroot has now inflated 10,000x. Definitely NOT easily explained by wartime inflation. The entire kingdom would have starved to death.
 
Origins tactics and tactical mode aren't the same thing. In origins you could tell your guys how to respond to a variety of situations, such as casting a certain spell when a certain number of enemies cluster, or something attacks your mage. 10 years ago bioware had a system that would prevent solas from casting barrier 30 seconds before you reach the enemy, or varrick from using his backflip escape attack when it makes zero sense to use it. You could prioritize different responses to different encounters, and make your party fight your way even when you had control of another character,

It was a great system, and for all it's flaws, DA2 improved on it. it was a great, very simple system that I was able to understand as a kid and that made the AI 20x smarter then it is now. Imagine never having barrier autocast except when you're actually fighting... it'd be huge. And the technology required is 10 years old and already exists.

Incidentally, no, tactical mode doesn't work in DAI. I tell them to resurrect a fallen companion, they change direction halfway and attack. When you tell them to hold position they chase you and get killed. They could hold in the other dragon age games... why not now?

Glad your education allows for a rich understanding of the older system; hopefully it will make a return. But many seemed to have an issue with it, and may fall into the category of those not completing the previous games. While this new system may not be as intense, it does work in accordance with Behavior. By setting Follow to self, seemingly one can increase self-defense and decrease the likelihood of conflicting commands for that NPC.

Elfroot: may purchase it for a base 20 gold (am guessing certain Perks apply), but am now curious as to the price of sale. I keep all of mine, so have no idea, but I doubt it is at this same value.

Again, I am fairly Techless, and my game runs fairly smoothly. But if one is still having troubles managing such a simple Tactics & behavior system with a lesser Tactical system, it would seem to be a tad more complicated than one assumes.

[Lee T]

Please don't think me ignorant when it comes to Bethesda games. I own a few.

Not my point.

My point is that DAI is in no way close to these games. If it was close to these games I would like it. I do not contest that they tried, but they failed. The boredom in this game is not the result of the attempt, but a symptom of this failure.

P.S: Fallout New Vegas is not a Bethesda game. It was made by Obsidian, authors of KOTOR 2, ALpha Protocol and the upcoming Pillars of Eternity.

[Elhanan]

Not my point.

My point is that DAI is in no way close to these games. If it was close to these games I would like it. I do not contest that they tried, but they failed. The boredom in this game is not the result of the attempt, but a symptom of this failure.

As one that likes and enjoys both Skyrim and DAI, there seems to be something varied in the equation; the Player, and not Bioware. No failure; simply a differing opinion.

[Damdil]

As one that likes and enjoys both Skyrim and DAI, there seems to be something varied in the equation; the Player, and not Bioware. No failure; simply a differing opinion.

I think DA: I  gives of an example of a poorly implemented open world. There is no need for exploration in the usual meaning as EVERYTHING is marked on your map and there are so many repeitive elements. For example in every cave you'll find a treasure at the end with no single exception and often, the quest is only ended after taking the loot so everyone can be really really sure that everything is looted. Skyrim is very similar in this point. Also, you'll find nearly no unpleasant surprises.

 

Fallout 3 (as you mentioned it here often) however makes this part alot more interesting. Every area is different and you don't have the feeling of safety, as you don't know what awaits you. In one Vault, you'll discover cruel experiments, a little town of friendly folks are mad cannibals, another complex contains huge amounts of deadly traps and so on. Also, you may never find these places, because you have to look for them yourself. This makes an open world game much more authentic and enthralling. 

[Elhanan]

I think DA: I  gives of an example of a poorly implemented open world. There is no need for exploration in the usual meaning as EVERYTHING is marked on your map and there are so many repeitive elements. For example in every cave you'll find a treasure at the end with no single exception and often, the quest is only ended after taking the loot so everyone can be really really sure that everything is looted. Skyrim is very similar in this point. Also, you'll find nearly no unpleasant surprises.
 
Fallout 3 (as you mentioned it here often) however makes this part alot more interesting. Every area is different and you don't have the feeling of safety, as you don't know what awaits you. In one Vault, you'll discover cruel experiments, a little town of friendly folks are mad cannibals, another complex contains huge amounts of deadly traps and so on. Also, you may never find these places, because you have to look for them yourself. This makes an open world game much more authentic and enthralling.

Because DAI is not Open World. It is a story driven MMO-RPG; just without the multi-player aspect, IMO. It is not as linear as some titles; plays a bit like KOTOR in the respect that the middle sections are able to be played in any order, but is still about getting from Alpha to Omega.

Skyrim is he only sandbox game in my experience, but seems to be about starting at Alpha, then handing the remaining game over to the Player. I have yet to play all the content, so still no finished story even though I almost always play the MQ.

And I do not play the Fallout games at all; nor follow a Let's Play, so someone else must be your intended target for that series.

[pinkjellybeans]

 

How does removing Tactics in itself make things simpler? All Tactics ever did was automate stuff for the player. When something isn't automated for me anymore, I'm not doing any less thought than I was doing when that thing was automated.

 

It made things simpler because now it's all done for you. Tactics made you think, you have to take a lot of things into consideration, you have to understand when to use each spell, and like someone said, if your party gets killed it was your fault because you set the tactics poorly. To new players, tactics can be overwhelming. To people that can actually use their brain and learn how to use stuff, it was a most useful feature. Now you don't have to do anything, the AI does everything for you, even if that means ranged characters running into melee fights or mages casting barriers as soon as they see enemies. Yes, tactics would automate stuff for the player, but without it, most people aren't going to pause every 2 seconds to give instructions to companions like tactics automatically did, so consequently they will rely on the stupid AI and button smash their way through the fights.

 

 

And dude, there aren't tactics in DAI. On, off, and use more often isn't tactics. there's more tactical options in the 10mb mobile games on my iPad.

 

lol I give up trying to have a conversation with people that think setting a spell to preferred is considered as tactics. They will say whatever they feel like to defend the poor decisions Bioware made with Inquisition, so there's no point.

[Elhanan]

...
 
lol I give up trying to have a conversation with people that think setting a spell to preferred is considered as tactics. They will say whatever they feel like to defend the poor decisions Bioware made with Inquisition, so there's no point.

Agreed; no point discussing matters with one that prefers to condescend to posters with differing opinions instead of debating the issues. Pls set me to Ignore; have done the same.

[pinkjellybeans]

Agreed; no point discussing matters with one that prefers to condescend to posters with differing opinions instead of debating the issues. Pls set me to Ignore; have done the same.

 

I'm sorry but I made walls of texts debating the issue. You keep giving, in my opinion, poor excuses to every single point. You consider clicking on/off on spells as tactics, you don't think they were simplified (well technically they weren't, they were completely removed instead) you made a big comment about the new "tactics" like it is some complex thing. I have nothing else to tell you after that, I really don't. It's just... exhausting to be honest.

 

Maybe we should just leave it at that, we have different opinions. I didn't insult you, did I? I just said I don't want to keep having a conversation with someone that defends every decision Bioware ever made and that thinks DAI's "tactics" are ok. I'm not going to convince you they aren't, and you're not going to convince me they are. We already gave our opinions in this matter. So, what's the point on keeping up with this? I'm not going to put you on my Ignore list just because you have a different opinion, if I would do that with everyone, I would Ignore half of the people on these forums, but I'm also not going to discuss this anymore. Do whatever you want, though.

[Ashen Nedra]

Agreed; no point discussing matters with one that prefers to condescend to posters with differing opinions instead of debating the issues. Pls set me to Ignore; have done the same.

Dear Elhanan, you're so quick to put people on ignore list.

 

I wonder if you've read the Philip. K. Dick novel 'Eye in the Sky'?

 

http://mxmossman.blo...-dick-1957.html

 

 

It seems to me that your perfect BSN closely resembles Mrs Edith Pritchett's imaginary world.

 

'The new world is created by Mrs. Edith Pritchet, who is willing to banish from existence anything that offends or causes problems, starting with sex and ending with Helium, Neon, Nitrogen, and air. Naturally, after that everyone dies and they pass on to the next world, a place brimming with menace, rigid and harsh, that of the paranoid Miss Joan Reiss.'

 

 

 

 

Everybody who disagrees with your personal vision of the game: ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore. Somebody uses strong language or even covert expletives: ignore. Somebody answers too harshly to you without breaking politeness: ignore.

Somebody bores you : ignore

 

You'll be all alone in your own private BSN in no time if you keep it up.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I like to play the game, too, Elhanan. I don't require much of a narrative incentive to enjoy combat and exploration, but Inquisition provides almost nothing. Notes found on dead bodies and fifteen-second conversations comprised of polite auto-dialogue just don't cut it.

I actively resist narrative incentive in these games. If the game tells me to do something, that makes me less likely to do it.

As such, I really enjoy how DAI handles it. It presents with a vast smorgasbord of possible activities amd leaves you to choose among them. That's how I think all RPGs should work.

This is a BioWare game. Surely, if you've played and enjoyed any previous BioWare game, you can understand why some people would dislike the new approach.

When I bought my first PC as an adult, the very first game I bought was a BioWare game. It was brilliant, and didn't conform at all to the standard you're describing.

DAI is BioWare finally getting back to what made Baldur's Gate their best game, and that's why I think DAI is the best game they've released in a dozen years.

[Ieldra]

I actively resist narrative incentive in these games. If the game tells me to do something, that makes me less likely to do it.

Well, then perhaps "narrative payoff". I think stumbling on some random X while exploring and following it up is fun, I don't need someone to tell me to do it, but I prefer that it triggers a little story as follow-up, including some real interaction, rather than just finding an Y and that's it.
 

DAI is BioWare finally getting back to what made Baldur's Gate their best game, and that's why I think DAI is the best game they've released in a dozen years.

I noticed that similarity as well. What I liked in BG1 was that I could engage the story at my own leisure. DAI is very similar in that after the initial sequence. However, DAI also has the same flaw, namely that the story content is spread over too much territory, so that it becomes almost invisible at times.

[Regan_Cousland]

Not my point.

My point is that DAI is in no way close to these games. If it was close to these games I would like it. I do not contest that they tried, but they failed. The boredom in this game is not the result of the attempt, but a symptom of this failure.

P.S: Fallout New Vegas is not a Bethesda game. It was made by Obsidian, authors of KOTOR 2, ALpha Protocol and the upcoming Pillars of Eternity.

 

Yes, I know the point you were making.

 

I just wanted to illustrate that I'm aware of the similarities (and differences) between Besthesda games and Inquisition.

I didn't know New Vegas was an Obsidian game, though. Interesting. I really liked KOTOR 2. I rank it right up there with all of the best BioWare games. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

I noticed that similarity as well. What I liked in BG1 was that I could engage the story at my own leisure. DAI is very similar in that after the initial sequence. However, DAI also has the same flaw, namely that the story content is spread over too much territory, so that it becomes almost invisible at times.

I think that's a strength, not a flaw.

And I also think BG did it better by not telling us which quests were plot-related.

[spoli]

Dont know if it's been said but only being able to interact with party members in skyhold (or haven) sucks the life out of the questing. When Im in skyhold, Im looking to dash in and out, not stick around and chat. Even the non-player party interaction is nearly nonexistent which gives the game a dead, boring feel while wandering about. 

[Ieldra]

I think that's a strength, not a flaw.

And I also think BG did it better by not telling us which quests were plot-related.

So...you are actually in favor of less main story content, do I understand that correctly? You prefer the game to be less story-driven rather than exploration-driven, similarly to Skyrim? If so, we can only agree to disagree.

[AlanC9]

It made things simpler because now it's all done for you. Tactics made you think, you have to take a lot of things into consideration, you have to understand when to use each spell, and like someone said, if your party gets killed it was your fault because you set the tactics poorly.

Again, how is setting tactics poorly any different from playing the game poorly myself?

Now you don't have to do anything, the AI does everything for you, even if that means ranged characters running into melee fights or mages casting barriers as soon as they see enemies.

So if I want the AI to do dumb things, then AI will do that for me? Well, sure, but that is no different from DA:O. If I wanted the AI to do dumb things in that game I'd leave the default Tactics on. The difference is when you don't want the companions doing dumb things.

lol I give up trying to have a conversation with people that think setting a spell to preferred is considered as tactics. .

I said no such thing. If you want to use tactics in DA:I, you can. Manually. Micromanagement.

[AlanC9]

And I also think BG did it better by not telling us which quests were plot-related.

This has been a Bio problem for a long time, to various extents. ME2 actually avoids it pretty well, since Shepard really is in a position to classify the available missions at any given moment as Collector-related, recruitment, loyalty, and miscellaneous. ME3 has a very bad case since the plot clock only advances with Priority missions -- which produces the absurd effect that the most successful approach to the game is to do "priority" missions last. ME1 is pretty bad, but OTOH there aren't too many UNC missions that are plausibly related to Saren. I don't think it was a big problem for DA:O and KotOR since the PC knows for most of the game what he needs to do and where he needs to do it.

[Derrame]

the bioware that made DA:I is not the same group  that made masterpieces like ME and ME2 and DA:O, sad but true

[pdusen]

In short, keep your Skyrim out of my Dragon Age, please. 

 

I wish I hadn't had to read through the other rubbish to identify which type of post this actually was...

[AlanC9]

I actively resist narrative incentive in these games. If the game tells me to do something, that makes me less likely to do it.

Hmm. Why less likely? I'd have thought you'd want to ignore the incentive, not actively reject it.

[Ieldra]

the bioware that made DA:I is not the same group  that made masterpieces like ME and ME2 and DA:O, sad but true

ME and ME2 masterpieces? We must've been playing different games of the same name.

[Realmzmaster]

Excellent point! How can any code be considered 'Dumbed Down' when it uses something other than COBOL?

* For those not familiar with this Ancient script, one wrote equations in long hand so that non-programmers could understand (eg; Six Times X Equals Thirty-Six). It took six pages of code for about a single equivalent page of Basic or Pascal*

 

The purpose behind COBOL was that it was self -documenting and could be easily picked up as it used English like statements. 

 

For example MULTIPLY PRICE BY QUANTITY GIVING INVENTORY_VALUE.

 

COBOL stands for Common Business Oriented Language. A lot of business applications were written in COBOL.

COBOL was a compiled language as oppose to BASIC which was an interpreted language  BASIC was an easier language to teach programming concepts since it executed each line of code in sequence before turning it into machine language. Therefore errors were pointed out as the program executed.

 

The entire COBOL program is compiled directly into machine language and then execution is attempted. All errors are reported after the attempted execution. COBOL was an unforgiving language. For example missing a period in a COBOL statement would lead to all the other statements reporting errors.

 

The problem with the tactics screens in DAO, DA2 and DAI is a lack of good documentation. Good documentation goes a long way to understanding the tactics systems.

[Ieldra]

Ah, the good old times of learning COBOL. They actually forced me to learn that stuff while away from work, I was experimenting with self-modifying machine code. I still get a good laugh out of this.

 

As for DAI's tactics system, I think it's seriously stunted. It doesn't help with what I'd like to do most: infuse some tactical sense into my companions. It is not, however, a serious flaw. That dictinction goes to the comparable scarcity of main story content and the impression that the main story is incomplete, the lack of complexity in the quests and the isolation of different regions from each other so that the world feels like less of an organic whole and more like a collection of unconnected parts.