1664 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

in skyrim also exits quests where you have to picking flowers or to find a necklace.so we must'nt talk about that.

 

but anyways frome the big developer (you) to a hobby story writer for a pen and paper game (me).. please a serious answer to this question:

if i write a story then i describe my characters , heros , enemys , innocents and so on more in detail.. i descripe the nature  more in detail ..tolkien do the same.but how did that belongs to a main goal of the story ??

 

if you say that all quests into the open world of dai are only uninteressting filler quests because they doesn't belongs to the main story of the game.. are you noticed that some of them tell the player much about thedas? about the history of thedas ? and the history of many peoples? tolkien do the same into his books.it helps you to understand why ... what .. waa happend or what happens now and why.

 

Yes. But in Skyrim the flower picking quests involved oping up larger quests, and also dialogue. The same goes for the necklace ones. It wasn't just "I lost my necklace". Followed by "Thank you for finding my necklace".

 

Skyrim's problem is the followers. They suck. Plain and simple. They have zero depth and they have very few lines. DA:I does not have this problem at all. The companions in it are all fleshed out and they are great. So picture the side quests in DA:I as the companions in Skyrim. And vice versa.

 

It can be used to foreshadow events, flesh out characters - and example of this could be one character talking about how much different it is from where he grew up. This in turn can lead to conversations that might reveal motives, hopes and dreams, and even a plot point or two. It can also be used to show change, or things that has happened in the area. Maybe things are dying in the area for some evil reason. Take your pick. Why the main characters do what they do, and why they behave or react in a certain way during a story is pretty important.

 

No I said they don't have A story to them. In the Crestwood area quests have stories to them. The woman with the Wyvern quest, for example. She tells us in great detail about the Wyvern, and we can have a long conversation with her about it. This is a good quest.

 

Just someone telling you they lost their necklace, and asks you to get it, is no story. In the wyvern quest the quest itself has "meat" on it. You get information, a conversation, and a good reason to do it. That makes it more interesting right away.

 

None of the people who gives you fetch quests tells you squat about the history of Thedas. That bit is actually shown really well during the Origin stories in the first game. In DAI you find this information in the Codex, for the most part. The lady who tells you to find her necklace, and says thank you when you do it, doesn't say anything else. What Varric or Cassandra tells you is completely different, of course. But they aren't part of those empty shallow characters you run into in The Hinterlands etc, that only has two lines.

[Akrabra]

I feel obligated to point out that Hinterlands is absolutely the zone that has the most problems and people seem to only talk about it. Didn't they try any of the 9 other zones in this game? Atleast 5 of them are incredibly well constructed and feel meaningful and the others have some problems. If you are playing a 50 hour game, don't blame it on the first 5 hours. 

[durengo]

Yes. But in Skyrim the flower picking quests involved oping up larger quests, and also dialogue. The same goes for the necklace ones. It wasn't just "I lost my necklace". Followed by "Thank you for finding my necklace".

the question is.. how to create a world that feels alive...

into the world live many peoples and animals and all have own problems...like it is in the real world.

 

true that has mostly nothing to do with the main story of the player...but a living world and the feeling of it  is a part of the main story.

 

these people and your companions have own goals and needs too...this is also a part of the living world.

the personal companion quests doesn't belong to the main story or main goal of your hero.but they are a part of the background like the living world is.

 

this game isn't a static furniture instruction to explain how will be the construction work and nothing else

.

if there are no filler quests about the own problems of the people ..

if there are only quests they belongs to the main story from our hero to get the main goal

then the game will be static and not better then a instruction plan.

 

because everything must belong the main story.like everything must belong the goal to explain the construction of the furniture into a instruction.

 

 

and another question.....

 

if realy every quest would belong the main goal and story of our hero.. how can that be realized?

as example :like the hinterlands..100 npc and maybe 25 or 30 quests.. every quest must explain why it belongs to the main story...

every second npc into the little village in the hinterlands must have a quest for our hero that belongs to the main goal.. how could that be?

didn't they have own problems? and why should a quest frome a villager into the woods belong the main goal from the hero if the villager is far away from the rest of the story?

lets talk about crestwood or the emerald graves and so on.....

how long would be the playtime of the main story???

[luism]

I've played every map in this game and the hinterlands is probably the most complete. The get out of the hinterlands argument is tired.

[Regan_Cousland]

I feel obligated to point out that Hinterlands is absolutely the zone that has the most problems and people seem to only talk about it. Didn't they try any of the 9 other zones in this game? Atleast 5 of them are incredibly well constructed and feel meaningful and the others have some problems. If you are playing a 50 hour game, don't blame it on the first 5 hours. 

 

I disagree. All of the open-world zones in this game are crammed full of generic, lifeless, un-BioWare-like content. The Hinterlands is not the only culprit.
 

Yes, admiring the pretty scenery does alleviate some of the boredom, and there are undoubtedly nuggets of real interest to be found, but not nearly enough. And, as I've said many times, there's no compelling reason to do any of these chores. They'd be more fun if we had a legitimate reason to be there in the first place.

 

I restarted Knights of the Old Republic a little while ago.

Of those of you who have played it, who remembers the grumpy janitor in the abandoned apartments?

 

Who remembers Dia, the woman with the bounty on her head?

 

Who remembers the blue alien who offered to hide dead bodies after you rescued him from a Sith inspection?

 

Who remembers the Twi'lek merchant who tried to sell you energy shields?

 

Who remembers Bendak Starkiller, the arrogant duellist in the local bar?

 

Who remembers the old pazak player who offered to sell you his card deck?

 

Who remembers that whiner, Dead-Eye Duncan, who got his arse kicked in the duelling ring night after night after night? 

 

Who remembers the Hutt who laughed in your face when you asked for a larger cut of your duelling profits?

The answer: Everyone who played KOTOR remembers all of those people, and guess what? They appear in, like, the first fifteen minutes of the game!

Now how many interesting characters do you remember after exploring the open worlds of DA: Inquisition for two hundred hours?

 

Exactly. I rest my mother-floopin' case. 

[Rizilliant]

Ive tried.. I really have.. But after completing one playthrough (187hrs) playing about 8 other created characters to haven, and my most recewnt Elf dual wield rogue, whos now 13, i just cant force myself anymore.. I quite literally fall asleep at the keyboard.. I really hate the DAMP, and i either force myself through a few rounds of that, or come here to read, in an attempt to hype myself up enough to play.. Shortly after starting, i realize i have to go through all them giant, empty zones again, pick all them herbs again, loot all that ore again, and it just far outweighs, how little story missions there are to intrigue me.. It takes hours to get to each good part, then its quickly dispatched, for mroe hours of trudging to get to the next good part.. They are just too few, and far between..

 

Skyrim did it much better.. There was reward in the exploration... What they call exploration here, is following map markers to every objective.. I couldnt believe the 1st time i found a "hidden treasure" map, it just put a mark on my map!!?! Like, seriously?! What was the point? That wasnt fun.. I didnt have to think, or read through clues, and codex.. Even the picture on the map was pointless.. My 1st attempt at Skyrim, i took a right turn out of The burning village where i was almost beheaded, and ended up (hours, and hours later) in Riften.. I didnt get to Whiterun for a few dozen hours.. I could choose when to do what..It doesnt feel like that here, since "what" is only a few short missions, buried in mountains of non-optional, side content.. Of which, is so dreadfully boring, and unmemorable..I loved every bit of skyrim, and still do 3,000+hrs later.. Heck, after installing Skyrim Redone, it was like a whole new game!

 

Ive just come to the conclusion, that no matter what they do to Inquisition, i wont enjoy it.. Even if they fixed the terrible tactical camera, re instated the tactic behavior modifiers, gave us back stat allocation, m+kb, etc...The game itself, is just too boring.. The fake, flashy combat is terrible to control, waiting out the long, ridiculous animations, gets you left in aoe more often than not.. The game is a chore to play! Its just boring.. If they fixed all the aforementioned, AND added TONS of meaningful quests to fill the void that is each zone, then we may be onto something, but since thats not going to happen, i believe its time to uninstall, and forget it.. I honestly wish i could have these few hundred hours back, because less than 20 of it, was enjoyable...

 

Hinterlands absolutely was the most full map there is.. I probably got the most fun, out of Emprise Du Lion, and thats mostly because of the dragons, and having to repair the bridge, and the better equipment i got from it.. Followed by the Jungle, just west of it(honestly dont even remember most of the names, thats how little they mattered to me) ..For the most part, each zone felt rather similar, with a different color scheme.. The 2 desert areas were abysmal, plain, and overly empty.. The Fallow Mire, could have been neat, if not so short.. There was like 2 things to do there.. Light torches, and kill the leader of the Barbarians..I never once saw the agent i got from tat area, ever again! The Hinterlands is where you spent mroe time, than anywhere else(if you actually do all there is offered.. Yes, even Skyhold, which is another fail all its own).. 

 

Im with you OP... This game was bad, from the ground up... The only thing "Dragon Age" here. is teh name, lore, and setting.. Nothing more!

 

-Queue Bioware defense force...(Ever notice that when 1 shows up, the other 4 do as well, followed by moderator suspensions?) .. Pay attention to their patterns..

[Elhanan]

Scout Harding, Mother Giselle, Fiona, the Rift Mage trainer, Morrigan's son, the varied people you attempt to save in Haven, Dagna, the Avaar leader and scout, the steward in Crestwood that was with you since Haven, etc.

And I have only played this twice towards completion....

[Regan_Cousland]

Scout Harding, Mother Giselle, Fiona, the Rift Mage trainer, Morrigan's son, the varied people you attempt to save in Haven, Dagna, the Avaar leader and scout, the steward in Crestwood that was with you since Haven, etc.

And I have only played this twice towards completion....

 

Nearly all of the characters you mentioned are key characters who play a role in the story

The characters I mentioned are extras in the first fifteen minutes of the game, and they have more personality than most in Inquisition.

Do you really want me to list another thirty people we remember well from KOTOR to drive my point home?

[Rizilliant]

Scout Harding, Mother Giselle, Fiona, the Rift Mage trainer, Morrigan's son, the varied people you attempt to save in Haven, Dagna, the Avaar leader and scout, the steward in Crestwood that was with you since Haven, etc.

And I have only played this twice towards completion....

 

Yet you cannot name half of them.. The ones you do remember, are plot oriented, or have been part of the game for awhile...They must have had quite the lasting affect on you, to make such an impression..

 

try naming some of them "impacful, meaningful" Agents you like to pretend matter at all, and you love, and remember... Now try it without Wiki...

 

Youre such a fraud.. For all the defending you do, you end up coming off more hypocritical than anything.. Constantly fudging something youve said in previous threads.. Which role do you play at Bioware? Are you Mod02, or 03?

[Rawgrim]

the question is.. how to create a world that feels alive...

into the world live many peoples and animals and all have own problems...like it is in the real world.

 

true that has mostly nothing to do with the main story of the player...but a living world and the feeling of it  is a part of the main story.

 

these people and your companions have own goals and needs too...this is also a part of the living world.

the personal companion quests doesn't belong to the main story or main goal of your hero.but they are a part of the background like the living world is.

 

this game isn't a static furniture instruction to explain how will be the construction work and nothing else

.

if there are no filler quests about the own problems of the people ..

if there are only quests they belongs to the main story from our hero to get the main goal

then the game will be static and not better then a instruction plan.

 

because everything must belong the main story.like everything must belong the goal to explain the construction of the furniture into a instruction.

 

You create it by detailed writing. Story, setting\gameworld and the rules must agree.

 

Someone asking you to fetch them 5 flowers, and not even telling you why they need them, doesn't make the world feel alive. The wyvern quest in Crestwood makes the world feel alive. Too few of those quests.

 

The companion quests aren't fetch quests or empty quests anyway, so I am not sure what you are getting at. Nobody is complaining about the companion quests in DA:I.

 

Except for the Crestwood area, the game certainly feels static. Which is actually the main complaint the game is getting. Not sure you are getting that, though.

 

Ok. Going to try to explain this to you a fourth time. It isn't about side quests being tied to the MAIN story, or not. It is about the side quests having A story of their own. Like that Wyvern quest in Crestwood, or the bit with the mayor in Crestwood. Those are both good story based quests. 90 percent of the rest of the quests are just empty filler. Find 48 Varric books. Find a letter in a hut. Find a missing druffalo. Someone tells you to do it. And when you do it you get a few coins and a Thank You. That isn't a story at all, it is a chore. And it doesn't make anything feel alive. At best it makes the world look like its filled with drones with a limited vocabulary. And arguably very limited social skills. "Look! the herald of Andraste! Lets have him find the bucket we lost the other day! If anyone can find it he can!".

 

As I explained to you four times now. This being number five. The side-quest stories doesn't have to tie into the main story. They can all have separate little stories of their own.

[durengo]

As I explained to you four times now. This being number five. The side-quest stories doesn't have to tie into the main story. They can all have separate little stories of their own.

sorry that you have to explain so much but that could be because you missed again something.i didnt call that a wonder since you ignore 90 percent of my comments.

 

all the time it was not about that the side quest mustnt tie to the main story...we talked about that the op here and you also like you mention into another post/comment would like to havent filler quests and instead of them more ore only quests they belongs to the main story.

 

 

What makes you think I don't like huge open worlds? It is possible to combine huge open worlds with the option of creating your own character, and have lots of story based quests, you know.

 

Quite a fan of making assumptions, aren't you?

 

 

 

Its supposed to be an rpg, though. Not an interactive hiking trip. Its great to look at, by all means, but it has nothing "real" in it. Just various chores.

 

The Crestwood area being an exception, though. That are was very good. It was tied to the main story, and it had side quests with stories of their own.

 

youre arguments are  a little bit like the flags into the wind...everytime they change the direction.it could be that i missed something as well because its hard to follow sometimes your fast changing  mind.

 

your discussion was all about the long ways .. that you cant have a car or plane ..into dai..that you must walk  . about the aimless wandering..this phrase was also used by the op and about many more things...and of course those arguments  make others think that you dont like a open world rpg.

 

then you came along with the criticism that you be forced to play as hero.. that you cant create your own character into dai...that dao is much better because you can be evil...then we talked about the titles like the hero of ferelden and so on.

 

i go now back to the roots:

 

 

if realy every quest would belong the main goal and story of our hero.. how can that be realized?

as example :like the hinterlands..100 npc and maybe 25 or 30 quests.. every quest must explain why it belongs to the main story...

every second npc into the little village in the hinterlands must have a quest for our hero that belongs to the main goal.. how could that be?

didn't they have own problems? and why should a quest frome a villager into the woods belong the main goal from the hero if the villager is far away from the rest of the story?

lets talk about crestwood or the emerald graves and so on.....

how long would be the playtime of the main story???

 

 

so if you say now that you like siedequests they have nothing to do with the main story.. but that you wanna have better ones because of different problems then would that be ok.but again this is a absolutly turn into another direction from you as before.

[Rizilliant]

You create it by detailed writing. Story, setting\gameworld and the rules must agree.

 

Someone asking you to fetch them 5 flowers, and not even telling you why they need them, doesn't make the world feel alive. The wyvern quest in Crestwood makes the world feel alive. Too few of those quests.

 

The companion quests aren't fetch quests or empty quests anyway, so I am not sure what you are getting at. Nobody is complaining about the companion quests in DA:I.

 

Except for the Crestwood area, the game certainly feels static. Which is actually the main complaint the game is getting. Not sure you are getting that, though.

 

Ok. Going to try to explain this to you a fourth time. It isn't about side quests being tied to the MAIN story, or not. It is about the side quests having A story of their own. Like that Wyvern quest in Crestwood, or the bit with the mayor in Crestwood. Those are both good story based quests. 90 percent of the rest of the quests are just empty filler. Find 48 Varric books. Find a letter in a hut. Find a missing druffalo. Someone tells you to do it. And when you do it you get a few coins and a Thank You. That isn't a story at all, it is a chore. And it doesn't make anything feel alive. At best it makes the world look like its filled with drones with a limited vocabulary. And arguably very limited social skills. "Look! the herald of Andraste! Lets have him find the bucket we lost the other day! If anyone can find it he can!".

 

As I explained to you four times now. This being number five. The side-quest stories doesn't have to tie into the main story. They can all have separate little stories of their own.

The sheer amount of them,... There are so many, compared to anything that matters, it just drowns out anythng fun..If im meant to save the world, i dont htink i would go hunt 10Deer to feed villiagers.. I would definitely make sure it got done, bbut those would be allocated amongst my soldiers.. (like the pathetic war table missions)..Some of those thngs are fine, but when you do 10 hunt a deer missions, for every ONE main mission, its just not fun... Add to that hours, upon hours of walking, walking,pick herb, walk, walk, walk, mine ore, walk, walk, walk, bear fight, walk, walk, herb, walk 3 pack bandit/bear spawn ontop of you, bear spawn, bear spawn, walk, walk, walk, herb... etc...

[Archerwarden]

In DAO a main quest was to seek out Arl Eamon. However, once there you are met by Tomas who tells you in a dialog scene that there are creatures coming from the castle every night, the Arl is sick and hasn't been seen, Bann Teagon is in the Chantry.
Que side quests:
Katlin and Bevin - helping a boy take a step to become a man
Seek out the Mayor Murdock - shore up the mayor, dwarf and militia in bar quest
Seek out Ser Perth - seek the Mother in the Chantry, seek oil
Owen the blacksmith - help him to help make armour for the militia, promise to help find his daughter Valenna in the castle
The Bartender and the boys - talk to the militia, help them get goodwill drinks from bartender or not
Bella the waitress- help her leave or not
Bertwick the spy- find out what he is up to
Dwayne? the dwarf - get the dwarf to fight

With all of these side quests there are dialog scenes(some multiple) and different outcomes depending on which dialog tree and/or which companion comes along.

All have do with the village under siege and also Arl Eamon and Connors possession and ultimately with gathering allies- a main quest.

They could have used this model in DAI and expanded that into the regions, each region having its own quests and main quest related to the main story. each quest or most quests being able to talk in a dialog scene and with different outcomes.

For instance the slaves in Emprise Du Lion. Why not have the quest giver be Stroud? or Hawkes Grey Warden sibling or a loved one - say the warden is missing help find him. Talk for a bit, find out why, maybe go on a multi map hunt - leading to the slave camps. Kill the Red Templars, free the slaves, speak to the Warden, then sibling or loved one.

Ties in - nice side story with the wardens. It could have been done. Needn't be every single quest but more interesting then picking up a piece of paper or help my place my wifes ashes somewhere - and thanks.

[Elhanan]

Nearly all of the characters you mentioned are key characters who play a role in the story

The characters I mentioned are extras in the first fifteen minutes of the game, and they have more personality than most in Inquisition.

Do you really want me to list another thirty people we remember well from KOTOR to drive my point home?

Housemaster and family that aids the Inq, disguised smuggler turned Agent from Redcliffe, Corporal leader in the Hinterlands Crossroads, the Mage researcher in Haven that worked alongside Josephine, the Requisition operative that was loyal to Loghain, the flirtatious couple at the stable in Haven, the Tranquil researcher that takes over in Skyhold, the cranky Alchemist that saved your life in Haven, etc.

If names are required, I can reload, too....

[Realmzmaster]

Nearly all of the characters you mentioned are key characters who play a role in the story

The characters I mentioned are extras in the first fifteen minutes of the game, and they have more personality than most in Inquisition.

Do you really want me to list another thirty people we remember well from KOTOR to drive my point home?

 

You mean like Belle, Dennet, Jana, Corporal Vale, Loranii, Ritts, Sky Watcher, Ellendra, Blades of Hessarian, Anais, Morvan the Under, Clemence, Lady Couteau, Berand (Love Waits quest)

 

How could anyone forget Morvan the Under who was throwing goats at the walls of Skyhold?

 

Anais the speaker at the cult stronghold.

 

What about Clemence the tranquil mage in the Bull and Lantern who can be recruited provided the Inquisitor sides with the mages otherwise he probably becomes an oculara ?

 

No one should be able to forget the hunter who requested the ram meat?

 

What about the widower who requested flowers be put on his wife's grave?

 

Master Dennet the master horseman, his wife Elaina and daughter Seanna?

 

Federic Professor of Draconology

 

Deraboam owner of the mysterious box for sell.

 

Lysette the templar at Haven who the Inquisition saved.

 

Ritts who was having an affair with the mage when the templars attacked

 

Maryden Halewell the bard in Haven

 

The Doctor at Skyhold who is offering her medical services.

 

Flissa the owner of the bar in Haven.

 

What about Cabot the bartender in Skyhold?

 

Those are just some off the top of my head that I remember.

[AlanC9]

The sheer amount of them,... There are so many, compared to anything that matters, it just drowns out anythng fun..If im meant to save the world, i dont htink i would go hunt 10Deer to feed villiagers.. I would definitely make sure it got done, bbut those would be allocated amongst my soldiers.. (like the pathetic war table missions)..Some of those thngs are fine, but when you do 10 hunt a deer missions, for every ONE main mission, its just not fun... Add to that hours, upon hours of walking, walking,pick herb, walk, walk, walk, mine ore, walk, walk, walk, bear fight, walk, walk, herb, walk 3 pack bandit/bear spawn ontop of you, bear spawn, bear spawn, walk, walk, walk, herb... etc...

You're talking about the time it takes to complete the missions rather than just the absolute umber of missions, right? You seem to be talking about the absolute number a bit, but that doesn't seem like a real problem.

[Rizilliant]

You're talking about the time it takes to complete the missions rather than just the absolute umber of missions, right? You seem to be talking about the absolute number a bit, but that doesn't seem like a real problem.

huh?

[durengo]

You mean like Belle, Dennet, Jana, Corporal Vale, Loranii, Ritts, Sky Watcher, Ellendra, Blades of Hessarian, Anais, Morvan the Under, Clemence, Lady Couteau, Berand (Love Waits quest)

 

How could anyone forget Morvan the Under who was throwing goats at the walls of Skyhold?

 

Anais the speaker at the cult stronghold.

 

What about Clemence the tranquil mage in the Bull and Lantern who can be recruited provided the Inquisitor sides with the mages otherwise he probably becomes an oculara ?

 

No one should be able to forget the hunter who requested the ram meat?

 

What about the widower who requested flowers be put on his wife's grave?

 

Master Dennet the master horseman, his wife Elaina and daughter Seanna?

 

Federic Professor of Draconology

 

Deraboam owner of the mysterious box for sell.

 

Lysette the templar at Haven who the Inquisition saved.

 

Ritts who was having an affair with the mage when the templars attacked

 

Maryden Halewell the bard in Haven

 

The Doctor at Skyhold who is offering her medical services.

 

Flissa the owner of the bar in Haven.

 

What about Cabot the bartender in Skyhold?

 

Those are just some off the top of my head that I remember.

just to complete the list a little bit:

lord woolsley

boney sims

farris

sir morris

sutherland

[AlanC9]

huh?

When you say "There are so many, compared to anything that matters" and "when you do 10 hunt a deer missions, for every ONE main mission" it's a complaint about the number of the missions, not that you spend too much time playing such missions.

Put another way, I don't spend anything like 90% of my playing time doing things like hunting deer. Do you?

[NathanPhoenix1]

Fun Fact: You don't need to clear out every nook and cranny in order to advance the main story.

Unfun Fact: If you don't clear out every nook and cranny the $60 dollar game would be over in 5 hours...

[AlanC9]

Unfun Fact: If you don't clear out every nook and cranny the $60 dollar game would be over in 5 hours...

The 5 is hyperbole, right?

[Il Divo]

The 5 is hyperbole, right?

 

Gonna hope so. Even ME1 while ignoring every planet exploration took me about 20 hours, give or take. 

[Pacman]

Gonna hope so. Even ME1 while ignoring every planet exploration took me about 20 hours, give or take. 

 

Huh, I played through ME1 few months back, clocked the game at 13 and a half hours not skipping any dialog. On the other hand ME2 took me over 45 hours (and I only did LOTSB DLC)..

[Il Divo]

Huh, I played through ME1 few months back, clocked the game at 13 and a half hours not skipping any dialog. On the other hand ME2 took me over 45 hours (and I only did LOTSB DLC)..

 

I could be misremembering. It's been a long time since I've done an ME1 playthrough. I might have done most of the Citadel side quests too, which killed a good chunk of time. 

[Pacman]

I could be misremembering. It's been a long time since I've done an ME1 playthrough. I might have done most of the Citadel side quests too, which killed a good chunk of time. 

 

I only skipped one quest (where you need to test gambling tech or w/e) and ended up dissing the keeper scanner guy and his friend volus. Keeper scanning probably would have taken couple of hours so if you did that I guess it makes sense.