1664 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilithor]

60-70 hours story driven?

I must have a really odd copy of DA:O then, cause I never even came close to 60 hours.

Actually even doing all quests, DLCs and awakening it is usually 50 hours for me.
And that's why Origins+Awakening is so much superior to Inquisition.
I do it all, I have fun doing everything and the game ends before it gets boring.
This is the very definition of a good game for me, a game where I don't need to skip content to enjoy. Inquisition is the definition of a bad game, a game where you have to skip 75% or more to enjoy.

[Elhanan]

Actually even doing all quests, DLCs and awakening it is usually 50 hours for me.
And that's why Origins+Awakening is so much superior to Inquisition.
I do it all, I have fun doing everything and the game ends before it gets boring.
This is the very definition of a good game for me, a game where I don't need to skip content to enjoy. Inquisition is the definition of a bad game, a game where you have to skip 75% or more to enjoy.

No; where you choose to skip content to enjoy it, while many do not and are having a grand time in Thedas.

[Reymoose]

The context was Grinding; not side-quests, but much the same applies.

Grinding for me is dull, so I choose not to do it. Finding a solution to ending the spawns, exploring alternative routes, and forging ahead are all entertaining options for dealing with them. I avoid having to do so again.

Sometimes it is easier than some others, but is hardly difficult. There are quest markers for those that use them. The maps continue to evolve revealing clues and locations. Etc. And as indicated, there are walkthroughs available for those that choose to use them; tend to use this on puzzles when I choose to skip past them.

Now if one finds all of the non-MQ content dull, then that is a problem I cannot address as I strongly disagree. But to simply offer feedback to add cinematics which can lessen the RP value for many including myself, I choose to contend that idea.

 

I'll say this now. You, Elhanan, need to be more emphatic towards your fellow consumers and gamers. To devalue someone's opinion like you constantly do, you're showing an *extreme* lack of empathy and sociopathic tendencies towards other's opinions.

 

Try playing devil's advocate, and look at the issues that the OP and others you disagree with and see where they are coming from because while all opinions are subjective, opinion itself can be based of subjective or objective data.

 

So when someone says "I don't like grinding power.", and you reply with 'Do something else." is a deflection from the real problem. What are you telling people to do exactly? Because it sounds like you're pointing people from closing 3-4 rifts to gain power to doing 3-4 'note' fetch quests to gain power and the obvious seems to be completely flying over your head, or you are being obtuse on purpose.

 

I hope you find a response that doesn't include the phrase "than some others" ,which, I hate to break it to you, is one of the most condescending phrases you can write.

[Darkly Tranquil]

And both you can avoid almost entirely if that's not your thing.And seriously, grinding is killing the same damn creature over and over again for a 0.001% chance to get the drop you want, of which you need 5 or something. Or even worse, not even doing it for a drop, but just for the experience.That, is grinding. Delivering some materials you were going to pick up regardless hardly qualifies, nor are they in any way whatsoever necessary to progress.

Grinding is doing a boring, simple task over and over again in order to gain a benefit of some kind. It can be mob grinding for Xp or rep, it can be herb or ore farming for mats, it can be travelling to locations for rare spawns to kill for special loot. Basically, if it's boring busy work done to unlock an arbitrary gate placed in front of you by the developers, it's grinding. DAI's power requirement is technically grinding, even if it is pretty easy grinding in comparison to the grinding in MMOs for example.

If there is one P&P RPG staple that CRPGs could benefit from getting well away from, it's kill based xp.

[9TailsFox]

60-70 hours story driven?

I must have a really odd copy of DA:O then, cause I never even came close to 60 hours.

DA:O I don't know maybe you rushed, or play better when me,miss some stuff, skip dialogues, don't know I completed DA:O in 63h 26min. And loved all of it and replayed 5 times.

[Jeffry]

@Reymoose, @Darkly Tranquil

 

Completely agree, unfortunatelly I am still out of likes for today

 

 

Sometimes it is easier than some others, but is hardly difficult. There are quest markers for those that use them. The maps continue to evolve revealing clues and locations. Etc. And as indicated, there are walkthroughs available for those that choose to use them; tend to use this on puzzles when I choose to skip past them.

 

Ok, nobody here said anything about the difficulty of side activities and needing walkthroughs in order to complete them, that is really not addressing anything I have ever said, you are just getting away from the issue by talking about something else completely. Maybe you just misunderstood me.

 

My point was that there is no way to know in advance in which zone I'll find the least amount of boring content (for me it was in Emprise du Lion and Hissing Wastes, those two super end game and completely optional zones, whereas the earlier ones with few exceptions were dreadful to play through). And this I see as a big problem. One that - and this is important - wasn't in DAO or DA2. I found their side quests not only more enjoyable and less of a chore to complete (since they were often in the locations I would visit anyway), that is my personal preference tho, but more imporantly they were completely optional when you only wanted to experience the main story.

 

And you can't do that in DAI, which is wrong in a story driven RPG with huge emphasis on its narrative. The ideal state here would be side activities being completely optional and more engaging at the same time. But I can see that some people prefer them the way they are now and there is nothing wrong with that. But what is wrong is forcing such optional content upon everybody, no matter how much you personally liked it.

[Elhanan]

.... 
 
Ok, nobody here said anything about the difficulty of side activities and needing walkthroughs in order to complete them, that is really not addressing anything I have ever said, you are just getting away from the issue by talking about something else completely. Maybe you just misunderstood me.
 
My point was that there is no way to know in advance in which zone I'll find the least amount of boring content (for me it was in Emprise du Lion and Hissing Wastes, those two super end game and completely optional zones, whereas the earlier ones with few exceptions were dreadful to play through). And this I see as a big problem. One that - and this is important - wasn't in DAO or DA2. I found their side quests not only more enjoyable and less of a chore to complete (since they were often in the locations I would visit anyway), that is my personal preference tho, but more imporantly they were completely optional when you only wanted to experience the main story.
 
And you can't do that in DAI, which is wrong in a story driven RPG with huge emphasis on its narrative. The ideal state here would be side activities being completely optional and more engaging at the same time. But I can see that some people prefer them the way they are now and there is nothing wrong with that. But what is wrong is forcing such optional content upon everybody, no matter how much you personally liked it.

Hinterlands: to bypass the War torn area, circumvent the major conflict and head to the quest markers. Or go directly through them. Or find another route via exploration,. Etc. (ie; not difficult).

[Jeffry]

Hinterlands: to bypass the War torn area, circumvent the major conflict and head to the quest markers. Or go directly through them. Or find another route via exploration,. Etc. (ie; not difficult).

 

Ok, this is once again getting completely ridiculous. I don't even know where you got Hinterlands and me talking about super early game from. Yet again you are completely ignoring the core of my argument and replacing it with something I have not even remotely said and then arguing with me based on that.

 

And I have to ask, why? Have you not read what I said? Is it because you have misunderstood me? Or is it because you don't really have a counter-argument and have to resort to fallacies in order to continue arguing instead of stepping down or taking Reymoose's excellent advice about trying to be the devil's advocate?

[Dinkledorf]

I'll say this now. You, Elhanan, need to be more emphatic towards your fellow consumers and gamers. To devalue someone's opinion like you constantly do, you're showing an *extreme* lack of empathy and sociopathic tendencies towards other's opinions.

 

Try playing devil's advocate, and look at the issues that the OP and others you disagree with and see where they are coming from because while all opinions are subjective, opinion itself can be based of subjective or objective data.

 

So when someone says "I don't like grinding power.", and you reply with 'Do something else." is a deflection from the real problem. What are you telling people to do exactly? Because it sounds like you're pointing people from closing 3-4 rifts to gain power to doing 3-4 'note' fetch quests to gain power and the obvious seems to be completely flying over your head, or you are being obtuse on purpose.

 

I hope you find a response that doesn't include the phrase "than some others" ,which, I hate to break it to you, is one of the most condescending phrases you can write.

True but seemingly wasted words.  Good try but you are possibly on Elhanan's famous ignore list, lol.

 

I don't get it either really, unrelenting arguments on subjective matter where there is no possibility of a "win" no matter how you slice you it.

 

Its boring!

No: Its great!

Its boring I say!

No, its awesome sauce!

 

Lol.  Who cares.

 

The thread starts as a "subjective" opinion by, what appears to be, a long time DA series player showing her disappointment with DAI with her values in what makes her have fun playing what she considers to be a valid DA game.  Its not a plea, its a statement.  The thread attracts like minded people and also those that do not agree, standard fare.  What I can't wrap my head around is why try to convince each other the other is wrong?  Is Bioware going to take the opinion of the eventual winner of this debate and base the design of the next game on it?

 

I hate tripe, with a passion, to me it tastes like cr@p.  Why would anybody even try to convince me it tastes good?  Can it even be done?  

 

Sorry, soapbox and all, its just so ... fruitless.

[Elhanan]

Ok, this is once again getting completely ridiculous. I don't even know where you got Hinterlands and me talking about super early game from. Yet again you are completely ignoring the core of my argument and replacing it with something I have not even remotely said and then arguing with me based on that.
 
And I have to ask, why? Have you not read what I said? Is it because you have misunderstood me? Or is it because you don't really have a counter-argument and have to resort to fallacies in order to continue arguing instead of stepping down or taking Reymoose's excellent advice about trying to be the devil's advocate?

Sorry; had to rush away before concluding the post.

In almost every Spawned area, there are tasks that may be completed to end the spawns. Wandering encounters may be an exception, but occasionally these have minor quests attached (eg; Bear claws to bear spawns). If one wants to bypass Grinding, they may skirt by the Spawns themselves, fight as few as possible, or find another path past the problem area via exploration. The Hinterlands prove this repeatedly.

Now as to content, that will lie in the opinion of the indv Player, but this seems to apply to every area I have seen in the game.

[Regan_Cousland]

... what is wrong is forcing such optional content upon everybody, no matter how much you personally liked it.

 

Hinterlands: to bypass the War torn area, circumvent the major conflict and head to the quest markers. Or go directly through them. Or find another route via exploration,. Etc. (ie; not difficult).

 

What are you on about now, Elhanan? lol

 

I have to assume that you're being sardonic, because Jeffry's meaning is perfectly clear. He dislikes that he's compelled to play dull side content in order to acquire XP and Power points; he's not confused about how to avoid people on the map. 

 

 

Its boring!

No: Its great!

Its boring I say!

No, its awesome sauce!

 

LOL. Yep, that sums up this forum. I'm so glad I created it. I've made a real difference to mankind. 

[Rizilliant]

It is a MMO-RPG; just w/o the Multiplayer part. For over a year before release I knew it was going to be multiple large areas; not Open World, so have little idea where anyone is disappointed at that reveal.

And biased translations aside, there is plenty of banter available in parties, perhaps with the exception of systems with bugs. This seems to occur near camps and in some farming areas with resources for my game (eg; The Lion, Hinterlands). And I take enjoyment at being able to have enough followers to swap; craft the parties I wish to take.

Simply enjoy being given the opportunity to explore and place content together as I wish; not being held by the hand and led everywhere.

....... I dont even know how to respond to this.. The SINGLE PLAYER, goty, being described as an mmo, by one of its staunchest defenders....Very telling indeed...

 

MMO= Massively-Multiplayer, Online.... Aside from the small, (&separate mode altogether) Dragon Age Multiplayer, online only DRM requirements (which are completely unnecessary), where do you get mmo? You run into no "massive" amount of other players(or even one, for that matter).. It can be played in offline mode... 

 

Its a single player game.. The content in it, is very much mmo-like, to that, there is no argument.. Feth this, kill that, farm, grind, farm.. But these are all things you consistantly state are not "chores".. 

 

The areas are big.. No doubt.. Empty for the most part.. Ofcourse you consider herbs, and ore to be "content", so, not really sure how that is...Clearly we differ on what defines content.. I describe it as quests, dialog, interacting with the game on many levels, enemy encounters, dungeons, people, etc.. The majority of what we have here is little more than flora, with ever spawning mobs... Exactly like the last 3 that spawned in the area.

 

The fact that we could fit, the exact amount of "content" (my definition) into about 1/3 of the zones given, tells me it was simply filled, with filler "mmo style" fetch/kill quests

[Elhanan]

What are you on about now, Elhanan? lol
 
I have to assume that you're being sardonic, because Jeffry's meaning is perfectly clear. He dislikes that he's compelled to play dull side content in order to acquire XP and Power points; he's not confused about how to avoid people on the map.  
 
LOL. Yep, that sums up this forum. I'm so glad I created it. I've made a real difference to mankind.

The context was Grinding; not side-content. That said, it also applies, as there is so much content, other options are available.

[SwobyJ]

To be honest, I kinda agree with Elhanan here. Kinda.

 

Most of the side content is optional. Optional.

 

If you want Power, there are more interesting (though arguably maybe not as interesting as DAO) sidequests that you can speed through in each zone. Nope, you don't have to do every rift. You don't have to do every little miniquest. You don't have to collect shards. You can probably just do the 'main story' in each zone and be fine for minimal Power. Save Crestwood. Stop the undead and recruit the Avvar. Capture keeps. Etc.

Power grinding isn't someone one has to do. What Power is for, is to allow you to do what you want, where you want to do it, as much as you want, and you'll be spreading Inquisition influence no matter what you do.

In this, I understand and consider it successful. (Note: Not Power entirely, but its supposed intended use in the game)

 

What I hate is... that I'm a completionist. And as a completionist, there is grinding. A lot. Unlike DAO and DA2 which had some boring quests but were largely interesting and involving stories, DAI has a ton of questing that would be more fitting (even if its sad that it exists there as well) in a MMORPG. 

 

For example, there are SOME interesting rifts. I go in this Deep Roads area and fight this boss rift. Cool! I go into the time stopped area in Western Approach. Cool! 

But the majority of them are clearly just 'drag and drop' for the developers to fill up a map with. That's not interesting, or at least intriguing content. And what I've known Bioware before for, was them most often having intriguing content. Something is always new. Something is always learned. Something is always around to laugh at or feel sad about.

A small note from a dead traveller doesn't cut it for me.

 

If I was one to just speed through maps and get minimal side content done in order to advance through the main story, maybe I'd not even be on this thread. But I'm not. I'm a (mostly) completionist. And DAI doesn't keep my interest. I look at the game, its design, its maps, and I see that it could be so much better. That it has a foundation that could have been more continuously interesting. 

 

Back to the rift example, if Bioware added more significant story/lore to every fade rift, maybe I'd be on board. Have (small!) cutscenes, have new discoveries, have specific (and lore adding) bosses or mini-bosses. Have the Inquisitor optionally learn more about his Mark. That kind of thing would have turned fade rifts into something more fitting for a narrative-driven game.

 

Of course, some of that stuff is there. About 1/4-1/3 or so of the rifts at least somewhat fit this idea. I appreciate that. I don't consider that content to be outright filler (though I'd still agree with others that the context surrounding these quests/areas is lacking). I'm not saying that the fade rift concept is a wash. Hell, I'm not saying that about any concept in DAI. Its just too bad, to me, that much of the implementation was done in a manner that I do NOT consider to be narrative driven, and amount to busywork in a game that just did not need that. 

 

When I'm doing something over and over and not enjoying it, it is a grind. That's how I define it in games. If I wasn't a completionist, I wouldn't be grinding. Too bad I am.

[Elhanan]

Thing is, small notes from dead travelers have been in every game of the series, I believe. Not certain, but Topsider sword from DAO may be the one collected along the Deeproads, and reassembled there; other minor quests, too. I enjoy most of these myself, from each game. Cut-scenes not required.

[SwobyJ]

Thing is, small notes from dead travelers have been in every game of the series, I believe. Not certain, but Topsider sword from DAO may be the one collected along the Deeproads, and reassembled there; other minor quests, too. I enjoy most of these myself, from each game. Cut-scenes not required.

 

I know.

 

Its like you just decided what my post was before you read it. I'm not against sidequests. I feel I have to repeat that - I'm not against sidequests.

 

I've done Topsider's Honor. Turns out that that quest was interesting and had an interesting story.

[Rizilliant]

I cant get over the best defense for the amount of boring content in this game.. "Dont play it", is not a technique for playing a game,  or its content.. Its an old, invalid argument, that seems to be the goto, when no legitimate response to the problem, come to mind!

 

I cam very close to 100% this game in my 1st playthrough (as much as one can do in a single play) and found the overwhelming majhority of the quests, to be of the same nature.. They could have easily made them slightly mroe rewarding, or entertainig, without having to go the other easy route, being just give me an OP item.. But seeing the ending simply "+1 Powe", is hardly enticing.. And after the 100th time, less so! So many of the quests were exactly that, that felt exactly like  the last several you had done.,. Few distinguished itself from the bunch.. The main, and companion quests being the exception!

 

Take the Emerlad Graves for instance.. Saving the prisoners from the refugee camp.. There was nothing mroe than +1 power.. No build up, no real dungeon, or "quest line" to follow.. Just goto the diamond on the map.. Kill 3 normal mobs, and a heavy mob... Open cage door.. On the other hand, you ran into the occasional gem.. The estate you zone into in the same area, was alright.. besides the endless spawning of undead from seemingly nowhere..Not exaclt "bioware great", but great when compared to the majority of the games content.. 

 

No ones arguing that these types of quests are unworthy, so to speak.. The point is, the sheer volume of them.. Especially when compared to the less than 1 dozen main story quests.. Less than 1 dozen companion quests.. Theres mroe than 100 quests in the game (id like to know an exact count tbh), and of those, less than 20% are main/companion...

[SwobyJ]

A: "Don't play it."

 

B: "Okay. Bye Dragon Age. Bye Bioware."

 

A: "Yes! Now I get to enjoy it all to myself!"

[Realmzmaster]

If DAI has MMO-like features it is because DAO introduce those features to the series. Before DAO can anybody tell me a Bioware game that had cooldowns, regenerating health and mana, taunt mechanic, unlimited normal arrows, abilities like Scattershot, Superiority, only a 4 character party (NWN had the protagonist and companion which was quickly rectified in the expansions). I will state that NWN started the trend away from permadeath, but DAO continued that action.

DAO was the one that started crafting. DAI simply continues it to both armor and weapons. I do not remember many Bioware games having crafting before DAO unless it was crafted for the party by someone else. The finding of letters and other notes started in earnest  in the DA series with DAO. For example, The only way to find the Key to the City or Gaxkang were through notes. The same with Jammer's Stash or the Crosscut Drifter's Cache along with others.

 

Boring is a subjective term which varies with the gamer's opinion and perspective. I see the argument from both sides, but did not find DAI to be boring. I enjoy the exploration for the sake of exploring others I concede do not. Does that make my opinion or their opinion wrong? Of course not.

 

As I stated neither opinion is wrong or right. The fact that will matter to Bioware/EA is how well the game did financial and what critical acclaim it received.

 

Some posters here state the those GOTY or People's choice awards do not matter or are not deserved, but in the end that does not matter. Why? It is all about perception. One thread and article compared DAI winning GOTY to CRASH winning the Oscar.

That does not matter because when someone goes down the Oscar list CRASH will still be among that list. The same with DAI and the GOTY or People's Choice lists. There will be no asterisk by its name saying "There was only weak competition".

That simply will not matter. DAI will still be the game that won those awards because somebody thought it was justified even if others did not.

[SwobyJ]

I've always admitted that Dragon Age has gameplay elements from MMOs. I'm completely fine with that. My specific quote in my earlier post was "DAI has a ton of questing that would be more fitting in a MMORPG."

 

It really was no surprise that we found out that that seemed to be something like the original plan (MMO).

 

Its up to Bioware if they want to 'rectify' this 'mistake' in DLC/DA4, or not.

 

I actually quite like the main story (even though it seems shorter than both DAO and DA2's) and a lot of the gameplay decisions/changes and a bunch of the sidequests.

 

But when I see a zone like, say, Storm Coast (which is largely the most menial of the sidequests + a dragon + a super short sidestory), I have to wonder if it would have been better to either:

1)Drop it early and not include in the development

2)Drop it at some point but have plans to include it as part of a more polished DLC

 

I don't find 'DAI boring'. But I do find a large enough chunk of it to be boring compared to DAO and DA2 that I have to express my opinions and concerns, and I don't appreciate another being constantly contrarian about it. (not you Realmz)

[Elhanan]

And I see the Storm Coast as an area with:

* varied weather from the Hinterlands.
* varied topography with scenic views.
* locals that may be allies or continued foes.
* varied enemies (eg; Darkspawn, Red Templars, smugglers, varied critters, etc).
* possibly the most challenging Dragon in the game.
* has a giant actually fighting said Dragon early in the game.
* has ways to integrate at least three Companions (ie; Iron Bull, Varric, Blackwall).
* Etc.

Simply do not get similar results here at all.

And I apologize if I seem adversarial; not writing well today, so keeping things brief.

[durengo]

And I see the Storm Coast as an area with:

* varied weather from the Hinterlands.
* varied topography with scenic views.
* locals that may be allies or continued foes.
* varied enemies (eg; Darkspawn, Red Templars, smugglers, varied critters, etc).
* possibly the most challenging Dragon in the game.
* has a giant actually fighting said Dragon early in the game.
* has ways to integrate at least three Companions (ie; Iron Bull, Varric, Blackwall).
* Etc.

Simply do not get similar results here at all.

 

thats a matter of the point of view.i agree with you but...

other ones see nothing else as only the fetch and the filler quests .maybe because they care only about this instead to look around.

[Zobert]

A  lot of the game is grinding, true.  I wouldn't mind grinding if you had the opportunity like in DA:O to engage your peeps in dialogue or had cut scenes away from skyhold where you could talk up your peeps.

[Elhanan]

A  lot of the game is grinding, true.  I wouldn't mind grinding if you had the opportunity like in DA:O to engage your peeps in dialogue or had cut scenes away from skyhold where you could talk up your peeps.

Banter and occasional dialogue is possible thru exploration This seemed to appear for me near camps and around resource farming areas; unconfirmed.

[Zobert]

Banter and occasional dialogue is possible thru exploration This seemed to appear for me near camps and around resource farming areas; unconfirmed.

 

Wait--explain, PLEASE.  You can stop, click on say Varric and talk to him in conversation mode with choices?????

 

If this is true, I have a bugged up game and will hate Bioware forevahh!