1664 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Add me to the list too. ME1 was a better rpg.

 

Me too its the best game in the franchise IMHO.

[Rizilliant]

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with all of this, it's more that I think ME1 represented a much larger shift than Inquisition did. 

 

As you say, the problem is related to world size. Or content density as someone in another thread put it. ME1 followed on the heels of KotOR and Jade Empire. While not every side quest was absolutely brilliant, what worked in the latter's favor was that side quests were incorporated into the actual game world. 

 

Each ME1 quest occupies its own little symmetrical sandbox. Each cluster has exactly one planet you can land on. Each planet has exactly one base that is clearly identifiable on the map. And each base consists of 2-3 identical rooms which the player is required to clear out before receiving a moral choice. And keep in mind, exploration consisted of locating Salarian Medallions and Minerals. It gets even worse when all the companion quests are given much the same treatment, creating a sense of homogenization. 

 

Where KotOR/Jade Empire might have incorporated these side quests into the general narrative of the world, Mass Effect confined each quest to its own little bubble. 

 

While I agree DA:I suffers problems related to boring side quests quite a bit, all of its companion quests (plus a few others) go to a far greater extent than ME1's side quests ever did in providing cinematic conversations. And not just the talking head treatment. Compare Cole's companion quest to finding Dr. Saleon for Garrus. Characters behave more dynamically in side quests, not just standing in one position talking back and forth. 

 

Personally, I think Bioware should be taking a less is more approach. Fewer side quests, but far more in depth as exemplified by Jade Empire's Imperial Arena, the Sunry Murder Trial, etc. 

youre also comparing 2006, to 2015... To thIs day, i can replay ME1, and never feel as though im doing chores.. I had to force myself to finish a single campaign.. More than 3/4 of it felt like a chore..While i agree, the main, and companion quests were good, there were only like 5-7 main, and 1 of each companion.. Not all of which were good btw.. Red Lyrium (woohoo), Warden Collectibles (yea.. I needed to collect MORE... Bottles, shards, etc..) Almost 10yrs later, its a far better experience for me!

[Frenrihr]

Trust me, you don't need to be a Bioware hater to be considered one, called and treated as you are one. Simple criticism is enough.
I was an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee was banned 3 times in 5 days by user reports. Now I simply don't care much.

 

True, i just left this forums awhile ago, too much fanboy butthurts here, you have it right TC, i havent done a second playthrough because the gameplay its boring and sad, im enjoying Divinity Original Sin tough, my god thats how you make mages and magic mechanics not this pole dancing mages with boring spells and only 8 slots.

[Rizilliant]

As for inventory, i prefer it.. I like to switch my items sometimes just because it looks cool.. I would try to have matchign Red Reaper weapons, and the corrcect type of ammo, scope, heat reduc, etc addon.. I much prefer ME1 inventory, but it was a hassle to use, only because of how you had to scroll through it.. Not because it was there.. There was no way to manage the loot.. Keep, or sell.. But switchign addons, could become quite a chore in that never-ending list!

[ButterBreadBro]

They shouldn't just take the JE style of quests, they should take everything from it. Screw more DA and ME games, give us Jade Empire 2

 

Holy ****, that would be awesome. Personally though, I'm greedy enough to ask for all three!

[Il Divo]

youre also comparing 2006, to 2015... To thIs day, i can replay ME1, and never feel as though im doing chores.. I had to force myself to finish a single campaign.. More than 3/4 of it felt like a chore..While i agree, the main, and companion quests were good, there were only like 5-7 main, and 1 of each companion.. Not all of which were good btw.. Red Lyrium (woohoo), Warden Collectibles (yea.. I needed to collect MORE... Bottles, shards, etc..) Almost 10yrs later, its a far better experience for me!

 

Why should that make any difference, from a quality stand point? The exploration was bland in Baldur's Gate in 1998, just as it was bland in Mass Effect and DA:I 10 and 17 years later, respectively. The game doesn't get bonus points just for being older. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

I think we can pretty much give up on getting another great BioWare game. There won't be another Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, Baldur's Gate or KotOR that comes even close to the originals. All that awaits us now are Assassin's Creed style games that rely on the reputation of their respective franchises. They probably won't be bad games but they simply won't compare to what we had a long time ago.

 

As long as people are happy with that development and buy those games EA/BioWare is not going to change a thing. They are making so much money, why would they? And by the time the last hardcore fan becomes bored and disgusted with what happened to the franchise they loved so much it will be too late. But don't worry, EA will make sure to replace BioWare with the next developer they acquire.

[AlanC9]

It's not like they're actually going to lose "the last hardcore fan," of course. Some of us like DAI just fine. Some like it better than DAO.

Unless you're going all No True Scotsman there?

[Darkly Tranquil]

Kind of sucks to lose any fans. Hardcore or not. It's not like they have a large, solid fanbase.
 
They had some bad reception with DA2, and the fans who stuck it out and liked that would valuable, I'd think. And if they lose people who even liked DA2, that's a problem.

Let's not delude ourselves that Bioware places any value on any of us except as sales numbers. They would happily and willingly throw their entire fan base under a bus if it got them closer to Skyrim-like sales numbers. Since gaming went fully mainstream, casuals (mostly on console) are where the money is, so they are the target audience for AAA games now; that means simple, easy to pick up mechanics, forgiving difficulty, and Hollywood blockbuster aesthetics. Hardcore RPG fans who have been playing their games for a decade or more are a noisy minority who will either adapt and go along with the change, or drift away seeking something that caters to their tastes. Either way Bioware and EA don't care; units sold matters far more to them than customer loyalty.

[Lee T]

This assumes that fuddling with inventory is a good thing, of course. I can go either way; in PnP I've played game systems with zero or minimal loot and inventory. I liked the ME2 system because it suited the situation and lore; it's a pity they didn't go all the way and remove credits too, though.

Loot and inventory are two different things.

The way they handled loot was an intereting idea. Only picking up the important stuff rather than collecting each and every gun the enemy dropped made sense and did speed up the game (unfortunately most of the time won was spent collecting the new clips). That would be a good idea in most cRPG, carrying a dozen basic sword in your backpack does not fit many background.

However the weapon variety was subpar, to be polite, inventory selection bare bone, to say the least, and rolling the ammo into the class' powers reduced the class themselves. They got rid of the chaff, ( I, II, III, IV, etc.) that was good, but they forget to add tactical choice, that was unfortunate. Each weapon you found was just a more powerfull version, no real variant allowing for various style and combinations. Which left'you with the meager armor part selection to set as you saw fit.

Almost any shooter these days present a more interesting selection of weapon and customisation possibility to fit your playing style. And shooters arent exactly the most progressive style of game out there... As a PnP player, former shooter enthusiast ( they forgot how to innovate with the Y2K bug) and cRPG fan, I was not impressed by ME2.

[Elhanan]

youre also comparing 2006, to 2015... To thIs day, i can replay ME1, and never feel as though im doing chores.. I had to force myself to finish a single campaign.. More than 3/4 of it felt like a chore..While i agree, the main, and companion quests were good, there were only like 5-7 main, and 1 of each companion.. Not all of which were good btw.. Red Lyrium (woohoo), Warden Collectibles (yea.. I needed to collect MORE... Bottles, shards, etc..) Almost 10yrs later, its a far better experience for me!

While I enjoy ME1, still use Medi-gel to bypass most locks; not a fan of those mini-games. And I disliked the addition of Thermal clip policing to the series.

[Naphtali]

I dont get it, the Ai was messy, the controls were also messy, the powers/ mechanics were un refined, the economy system was broke.

People will complain about picking up thermal clips {which the enemy drops right in front of you} and yet forget about all the decrypting which led to over saturation of items. Yes you could upgrade armor mods and amps, with health regen mod, etc but not actual armor pieces

Because nearly every item could be decrypted except spectre gear, there was no reason to spend money you would have over a billion credits halfway through the game from systematic inventory purges.

Why? Because you have 12 inferno level 6 16% mods, 20 level 5 shield 120s (obvious hyperbole) to get rid of, and you had superior equipment. Frivolous, broken item system, broken economy

The weapons only had 2-3 models per class, the idea being your mods would make your weapon unique, but it actually led to exploits. With the exception of the geth plasma rifle all weapons fire performance were the same

Powers had individual cooldown but not universal, also had powers that were too similar singularity/lift, biotic throw could throw everyone on screen :/ not focused.
Also those powers were not defined  well visually or audibly in particular against you. Being hit with warp without even being able to track the beam was tough

 

Sabatoge, overload, damping conceptually sounded good but again performance was weak and unrefined and power evolution was also linear, you couldn't divert paths

The lack of definition of powers, sluggish respond time in movement, AI all contributed to limiting the classes and limiting players skill.

 

A vanguard didn't feel anything like a powerful biotic or a force in melee, just an adept that could use shotgun. The engineer struggled mightily because of unrefined tech powers, the Adept could only use pistol skillfully, soldier could use all weapons but also rifle was most exploitable weapon.

The sentinel was the best IMHO because the class could compensate for the unrefined mechanics of ME1

The Mako driving around in a square map until you enter a warehouse/ underground facility, while surveying rocks was okay for their first attempt. 1 Planet per system. Again the idea of exploring initially sounded cool, and had nice elements,  but the mako was static, no upgrades to shields or changing of weapons

In Me2 they learned the lesson everything can contribute to the suicide mission, schematics for heavy weapons/ shield hardening. Resources for research could now be done neatly and efficiently, and those side missions varied from the blood pack base, to broken arrow, from the reaper husk  device to discovering the black box for a long forgotten crashed ship. Me2 with a bigger team, exp improved tremendously on their vision esp for side missions

 

I also appreciated that in ME2 I was given even more freedom and agency as a player esp with the interrupts

Me1 was great because of the vision of where they're going at the time, but if they had failed to evolve the series and improve then they never would've made it to the smithsonian

http://forum.bioware...-games-exhibit/

http://www.gamerevol...-calendar-11687

 

gotta go  talk more about it another time in an ME thread

[Darkly Tranquil]

That's the thing though. They're not there. Skyrim sold like 20 million. I would totally understand if they started considering their measley 1-2 million fanbase expendable (going by previous DA numbers and chopping in half).

 

I agree. I think Bioware alienating their existing fanbase (or even part of it) in the pursuit of some hypothetical new mega audience is foolhardy in the extreme, but then I'm not controlled by the parasitic brain worms like EA management are.

[Rawgrim]

I agree. I think Bioware alienating their existing fanbase (or even part of it) in the pursuit of some hypothetical new mega audience is foolhardy in the extreme, but then I'm not controlled by the parasitic brain worms like EA management are.

 

They are gaining a ton of casuals as fans now, but they are losing rpg fans and the old Bioware fans. Casuals are like the MTV kids, really. They follow hype, and nothing else. Seems an almost seasonal thing, really. They cling to stuff for a short while, then move on. The base fans are what keeps a franchise alive, if you lose them you are in trouble.

[Rizilliant]

I dont get it, the Ai was messy, the controls were also messy, the powers/ mechanics were un refined, the economy system was broke.

People will complain about picking up thermal clips {which the enemy drops right in front of you} and yet forget about all the decrypting which led to over saturation of items. Yes you could upgrade armor mods and amps, with health regen mod, etc but not actual armor pieces

Because nearly every item could be decrypted except spectre gear, there was no reason to spend money you would have over a billion credits halfway through the game from systematic inventory purges.

Why? Because you have 12 inferno level 6 16% mods, 20 level 5 shield 120s (obvious hyperbole) to get rid of, and you had superior equipment. Frivolous, broken item system, broken economy

The weapons only had 2-3 models per class, the idea being your mods would make your weapon unique, but it actually led to exploits. With the exception of the geth plasma rifle all weapons fire performance were the same

Powers had individual cooldown but not universal, also had powers that were too similar singularity/lift, biotic throw could throw everyone on screen :/ not focused.
Also those powers were not defined  well visually or audibly in particular against you. Being hit with warp without even being able to track the beam was tough

 

Sabatoge, overload, damping conceptually sounded good but again performance was weak and unrefined and power evolution was also linear, you couldn't divert paths

The lack of definition of powers, sluggish respond time in movement, AI all contributed to limiting the classes and limiting players skill.

 

A vanguard didn't feel anything like a powerful biotic or a force in melee, just an adept that could use shotgun. The engineer struggled mightily because of unrefined tech powers, the Adept could only use pistol skillfully, soldier could use all weapons but also rifle was most exploitable weapon.

The sentinel was the best IMHO because the class could compensate for the unrefined mechanics of ME1

The Mako driving around in a square map until you enter a warehouse/ underground facility, while surveying rocks was okay for their first attempt. 1 Planet per system. Again the idea of exploring initially sounded cool, and had nice elements,  but the mako was static, no upgrades to shields or changing of weapons

In Me2 they learned the lesson everything can contribute to the suicide mission, schematics for heavy weapons/ shield hardening. Resources for research could now be done neatly and efficiently, and those side missions varied from the blood pack base, to broken arrow, from the reaper husk  device to discovering the black box for a long forgotten crashed ship. Me2 with a bigger team, exp improved tremendously on their vision esp for side missions

 

I also appreciated that in ME2 I was given even more freedom and agency as a player esp with the interrupts

Me1 was great because of the vision of where they're going at the time, but if they had failed to evolve the series and improve then they never would've made it to the smithsonian

http://forum.bioware...-games-exhibit/

http://www.gamerevol...-calendar-11687

 

gotta go  talk more about it another time in an ME thread

Combat wasnt intended to be the centerpiece of the game.. The story, and adventure were.. This didnt hold true for 2, and 3, where the game was designed to be a fast-paced shooter.. ME 1 was the whole package..

 

As for the clips, it not that people were too lazy/stupid to pick hem up.. Its that a futuristic army, reverted to a less than optimal limitation of "ammo", when they has light speed, and intergalactic warps, Biotics, powers, etc.. They already had nuclear powered weapons..Why would they go back to having to reload ammo, on weapons that have jamming issues? Any automatic firearm that uses ammo can jam.. Not to mention, they need to be cleaned often, so as to continue to perform at peak performance..It made no sense, and was several steps back from the previous weapons.. It was dumb!

[Elhanan]

Combat wasnt intended to be the centerpiece of the game.. The story, and adventure were.. This didnt hold true for 2, and 3, where the game was designed to be a fast-paced shooter.. ME 1 was the whole package..
 
As for the clips, it not that people were too lazy/stupid to pick hem up.. Its that a futuristic army, reverted to a less than optimal limitation of "ammo", when they has light speed, and intergalactic warps, Biotics, powers, etc.. They already had nuclear powered weapons..Why would they go back to having to reload ammo, on weapons that have jamming issues? Any automatic firearm that uses ammo can jam.. Not to mention, they need to be cleaned often, so as to continue to perform at peak performance..It made no sense, and was several steps back from the previous weapons.. It was dumb!

Not so much dumb as it removes the Player from the story. In one area, the Player fends off an assault of Collectors, Rachni, etc, then instead of moving forward to the next room, stop and collect clips; rinse and repeat. Personally do not mind restricted Tech, but the planned backtracking for clips ruins the pacing of the story.

This was improved in ME3 with better caches planned for progress, but I much preferred ME1 methodology.

[Il Divo]

They are gaining a ton of casuals as fans now, but they are losing rpg fans and the old Bioware fans. Casuals are like the MTV kids, really. They follow hype, and nothing else. Seems an almost seasonal thing, really. They cling to stuff for a short while, then move on. The base fans are what keeps a franchise alive, if you lose them you are in trouble.

 

It can't be worse than driving themselves into bankruptcy, which they managed to do before EA. Sorry to tell you, but as an old Bioware fan, you weren't able to sustain them, regardless of the perceived quality of their older games. 

[DaemionMoadrin]

It can't be worse than driving themselves into bankruptcy, which they managed to do before EA. Sorry to tell you, but as an old Bioware fan, you weren't able to sustain them, regardless of the perceived quality of their older games. 

 

You can't blame the fans for BioWare's financial troubles though. Almost all their games were successful financially, it's not our fault if they made mistakes with it.

That being said, BioWare needed EA to make the step to the big AAA titles, otherwise they would have never managed it on their own.

[Il Divo]

You can't blame the fans for BioWare's financial troubles though. Almost all their games were successful financially, it's not our fault if they made mistakes with it.

That being said, BioWare needed EA to make the step to the big AAA titles, otherwise they would have never managed it on their own.

 

Depends on what we consider blaming the fans. Bioware's decisions were Bioware's decisions, absolutely. That's not my fault or your fault or Rawgrim's fault. 

 

But wanting more games in the (perceived) style of the old Bioware games when they went bankrupt making those same games seems contradictory. Hence why claims of how it's worse to abandon the old fans for a (potentially more lucrative) market is absurd. The fans weren't able to sustain Bioware, as it was. 

 

But there are multiple hints even in their most recent titles pre-EA (Jade Empire and Mass Effect), that Bioware wanted to make the move from old school cRPG to cinematic-driven experiences. I do think Bioware wanted to make that AAA jump. 

[jedidotflow]

You can't blame the fans for BioWare's financial troubles though. Almost all their games were successful financially, it's not our fault if they made mistakes with it.

That being said, BioWare needed EA to make the step to the big AAA titles, otherwise they would have never managed it on their own.

 

Mass Effect 1 happened without EA. That's a AAA title.

[Realmzmaster]

Mass Effect 1 happened without EA. That's a AAA title.

 

You are right! ME1 happened because of Microsoft and Bioware's exclusive deal with them. The problem is that Bioware was in financial trouble. The old fan base was not in a position to sustain Bioware. Bioware needed capital that is why they formed a partnership (VG Holding) with Elevation Partners along with Pandemic. Elevation Partners invested $300 million in the partnership. The minute Bioware formed the partnership it was no longer in control of its future.

 

Elevation Partners wanted a return on their investment. Bioware was not in a position to buyout Elevation partners. Elevation parnters put the partnership up for sell. EA bought the partnership for over $800 million. That made everyone who had a stake in VG Holding rich.

 

Without Elevation Partners and EA Bioware would have most likely closed its doors.

[Rawgrim]

It can't be worse than driving themselves into bankruptcy, which they managed to do before EA. Sorry to tell you, but as an old Bioware fan, you weren't able to sustain them, regardless of the perceived quality of their older games. 

 

I think that had to do with Bioware starting two brand new franchises back to back. ME and DA. They cost plenty to make, and they didn't have a huge fanbase at that point.

 

Selling out to EA is worse than Bioware not making AA titles. EA will milk the company for the franchises they have created, and then close the doors. They have done the same time and time again to other companies. This is why they are trying to cater the games to the most casual of gamers. The recent games have been so simplified that they border on being insulting to the players. This is done for one reason only. More immediate sales. The people behind the great games Bioware will be remembered for have all left the ship, and jumped over to kickstarter projects in order to make proper rpgs.

 

What we are getting from EA now is pretty much some "Justin Bieber" version of rpgs. Pretty much pure action games with 1-2 rpg elements in there so that it still qualifies as an rpg. Even the manuals are gone from their games, because they don't even need them anymore. The game constantly spoonfeeds you what to do, what to click, etc. And even despite of this, one of the EA bosses tells the press that their games are still too hard for their target audience. Let that one sink in. A game that requires you to cast 1 spell before every battle, and then button mash for the rest of it, is something that is considered to be too hard to do. Alternatively you can just place your face on the keyboard and just roll it all over the keyboard while drooling, and win every fight easily by doing that. Which is something I suspect some of the new fans are doing anyway.