269 réponses à ce sujet

[Vordish]

Dorian is a big thing for Dragon Age.

 

This character was announced as being Bioware's first "legitimately gay character". Big hoopla or whatever. I must admit that the character can be charming, but his personal quest "Last Resort of Good Men" really does give off a distinct impression of having a very specific agenda and this causes the whole scenario to be entirely one-sided in the end.

 

I redid this quest over and over. I did every dialogue option with every combination that was available. This included both the dialogue inside the inn at Redcliffe and at Skyhold towards then end. I noticed certain things.

 

Bioware seems very insistent on representing the LGBT community in its games. I have seen various twitter and forum posts to this effect and this quest presents a parallel to certain practices in the real world that are controversial. One of these is "conversion therapy". As far as my research has shown; this practice only has a history in the last century or so. I could be wrong, but whatever. The point is that Bioware actually presented this into DA:I in the first place. That was surprising.

 

What I find to be "unfair" and "not accurate" is the way Bioware designed the responses for the player to these things within this quest and, from what I have seen so far, to all presentations to anything resembling LGBT in this game. At least with this quest, there is no dialogue option whatsoever that would outright condemn Dorian for being gay in the first place; for whatever personal or roleplaying reason the player would have.

 

All dialogue options present either a naïve outlook that requires explanation on Dorians part or a diplomatically "Yeah...okay. It's all good, but your choice not mine" or "I whole-heartedly support you" for whatever reason. There is no action the player can take that would equate to "Your gay? Get away from me. Your disgusting." or "I don't agree with your lifestyle because of such and such" or even probably the most commonly controversial response in a lot of quarters of "I don't believe the Maker or Andraste would agree with your lifestyle or whatever and you shouldn't be that way"; the last of which, I believe, would have created some fantastic drama with Dorian.

 

The player is forced, at best, to be neutral and I believe this presents a one-sided agenda of Bioware to the player.

 

I understand it's Bioware's game. I understand that they want to play the "We need to represent the LGBT community" more in their games, but the mere fact of not including the real controversial aspects of this entire situation to the player gives the impression that Bioware isn't really at all interested in being fair about the entire thing.

 

Shouldn't everything be inclusive for all viewpoints or is Dragon Age becoming the sounding board only for those of the LGBT community?

[Il Divo]

I understand it's Bioware's game. I understand that they want to play the "We need to represent the LGBT community" more in their games, but the mere fact of not including the real controversial aspects of this entire situation to the player gives the impression that Bioware isn't really at all interested in being fair about the entire thing.

 

 

No, they're not being fair to both sides about it. And I'm absolutely happy about that. 

[Just My Moniker]

I'm going to just nope on out of this thread

 

[Fiery Phoenix]

No, they're not being fair to both sides about it. And I'm absolutely happy about that. 

This.

 

If it bothers you so much, you can always reject his subsequent offer of becoming friends with him. That actually affects how he interacts with you to some extent.

[Kantr]

Bioware is not interested in creating a game that will allow you to be homophobic to characters in dialogue, it is not about being fair. If you want to get rid of him because he is gay, then that's your right.

[ThreeF]

Also you are playing as someone in Thedas, a world where society has rather different outlook on these matters, your character is product of that society. I could think couple more dialogue options if the character was from Tevinter, but the Inquisitor is Orlesian Marcher, it is fitting.

[Arvaarad]

Any other response wouldn't fit with previously established lore. Outside of Tevinter, people in Thedas don't give a crap about the sexuality of others.

Having the inquisitor be shocked or alarmed would be as strange as giving the player the option to discuss airplanes or computers. Sure, discussing airplanes might fit someone's character concept ("in my headcanon, they're a modern-day human teleported to Thedas!"), but you have to draw some kind of plausibility line.

[Wulfram]

Also you are playing as someone in Thedas, a world where society has rather different outlook on these matters, your character is product of that society. I could think couple more dialogue options if the character was from Tevinter, but the Inquisitor is Orlesian, it is fitting.

Inquisitor is a marcher

[Vordish]

Well, if it is not about being fair...then that would answer my contentions quite thoroughly.

[o Ventus]

"I'm not allowed to be a homophobe."

 

Also, nobody in Thedas, outside Tevinter, really cares one way or another about someone's sexuality.

[ThreeF]

Inquisitor is a marcher

Oh yeah, sorry, same thing applies though.

[Kurt M.]

I always find funny how people don't care in the slightest to differenciate between "being gay" and "living the gay lifestyle". The second one is a choice. The first one isn't. And there are tons of gay people who don't follow an archetypical gay lifestyle. I'm gay myself, so I'm kind of an expert on this matter.

 

Anyway, trying to extrapolate the right or wrong decisions from a fictional world to this one is rather stupid. There are no real equivalences that I can see.

[B.A. Broska]

"I'm not allowed to be a homophobe."

 

Also, nobody in Thedas, outside Tevinter, really cares one way or another about someone's sexuality.

 

Gee Thedas sure is progressive for what is supposed to be a dark fantasy universe!

[o Ventus]

Gee Thedas sure is progressive for what is supposed to be a dark fantasy universe!

 

I'm not quite sure how opinions on sexuality really affect whether or not something is 'dark', but okay.

[Melca36]

Dorian is a big thing for Dragon Age.

 

This character was announced as being Bioware's first "legitimately gay character". Big hoopla or whatever. I must admit that the character can be charming, but his personal quest "Last Resort of Good Men" really does give off a distinct impression of having a very specific agenda and this causes the whole scenario to be entirely one-sided in the end.

 

I redid this quest over and over. I did every dialogue option with every combination that was available. This included both the dialogue inside the inn at Redcliffe and at Skyhold towards then end. I noticed certain things.

 

Bioware seems very insistent on representing the LGBT community in its games. I have seen various twitter and forum posts to this effect and this quest presents a parallel to certain practices in the real world that are controversial. One of these is "conversion therapy". As far as my research has shown; this practice only has a history in the last century or so. I could be wrong, but whatever. The point is that Bioware actually presented this into DA:I in the first place. That was surprising.

 

What I find to be "unfair" and "not accurate" is the way Bioware designed the responses for the player to these things within this quest and, from what I have seen so far, to all presentations to anything resembling LGBT in this game. At least with this quest, there is no dialogue option whatsoever that would outright condemn Dorian for being gay in the first place; for whatever personal or roleplaying reason the player would have.

 

All dialogue options present either a naïve outlook that requires explanation on Dorians part or a diplomatically "Yeah...okay. It's all good, but your choice not mine" or "I whole-heartedly support you" for whatever reason. There is no action the player can take that would equate to "Your gay? Get away from me. Your disgusting." or "I don't agree with your lifestyle because of such and such" or even probably the most commonly controversial response in a lot of quarters of "I don't believe the Maker or Andraste would agree with your lifestyle or whatever and you shouldn't be that way"; the last of which, I believe, would have created some fantastic drama with Dorian.

 

The player is forced, at best, to be neutral and I believe this presents a one-sided agenda of Bioware to the player.

 

I understand it's Bioware's game. I understand that they want to play the "We need to represent the LGBT community" more in their games, but the mere fact of not including the real controversial aspects of this entire situation to the player gives the impression that Bioware isn't really at all interested in being fair about the entire thing.

 

Shouldn't everything be inclusive for all viewpoints or is Dragon Age becoming the sounding board only for those of the LGBT community?

 

 

Is this your polite way of saying you hate Dorian and hate Gay people in general?

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Replying to the OP :- You do have a point but I am afraid it will be lost over most people who self insert and take things too seriously. 

 

Part of making interesting, believable and grounded content about homosexuality is the reproach or stigma that is against it. I agree that Bioware should have given the Inquisitor the option to be reproachful or be disgusted or shocked towards homosexuality. It should be there. Options are what make or break RPGs.

 

We have had the option for our characters in previous Dragon Age games to sell back an Elf to his master or to be an accomplice of sorts to the Elven discrimination and sexual harassment in Denerim. We even had the option in dialogue to be reproachful to Zevran if he says he likes men. 

 

None of this was in Inquisition. Additionally, I have the sneaking suspicion that David Gaider self-inserted himself way too much when he wrote that part of Dorian's story arc. 

 

I should clarify that I am not homophobic, one of my best friend in real life is gay, I do not condone slavery and I am a person of color but if we want to truly make a believable, grounded and interesting game, the option to be either pro-slavery or to be homophobic or to be racist should be in the game.

 

There have been extremist leaders of all sorts including racist ones, homophobic ones and pro-slavery ones in history. 

[WildOrchid]

The player is forced, at best, to be neutral and I believe this presents a one-sided agenda of Bioware to the player

 

The player is also forced to accept any heterosexual activities such as IB bragging about ladies.

They should just ew at them or tell IB to stop mentioning such things.

 

See how much stupid it sounds now?

 

 

Ugh, i just wish you lot would stop with this "agenda" nonsense.

[ThreeF]

I'm not quite sure how opinions on sexuality really affect whether or not something is 'dark', but okay.

It's not dark unless everything wallows in misery and horror in a completely obvious way.

[o Ventus]

The whole "homosexuality isn't a big deal in Thedas" thing is really evading some people.

[Pantalaimon]

This thread isn't gunna end badly. Nope. 

 

Dorian is totally the sassiest of the sassy, bet yet not that even sassy.. more sarcastic, yo. 

[Boost32]

The whole "homosexuality isn't a big deal in Thedas" thing is really evading some people.

Not actually true, there are homophobic persons in Thedas, even outside Tevinter. Hawke's uncle was homophobic.

While Thedas is not homophobic, individuals can be,

[Laughing_Man]

Well yeah, political correctness apparently became a big deal in DA:I - quite a few examples for it.

Feels like a rather patronizing choice in game design, but oh well... it's not like this is the only problem DA:I suffers from.

[TheLastArchivist]

The argument of the thread owner is right.

 

 

If Bioware includes discrimination and racism in its games - not in a negative way, but to render its fictional worlds as close as possible to reality -, showing things like:

 

segregation toward minorities such as elves (who are abused by their masters, live in alienages and are called knife-ear)

racism against Qunari: Javaris calls them horn heads and the average citizens of Kirkwall hate the qunari presence (with the exception of the elves) 

racism and segregation between people of same origin - Abelas doesn't recognise an elven Inquisitor as one of their own; Dalish discriminate city elves

religious intolerance - the Chantry see the Qunari and Tevinters as heretic. It also condemns mages on principle, keeping them on a leash and turning a blind eye to abuses within the Circle

 

then the prejudice regarding sexual orientation should've been present as well, since the player expressing his personal views (imbued with his prejudices) is considered normal.

 

There are even characters who'll express their prejudice toward you (sometimes without reason or provocation), like Sten and his diatribe of women can't fight.

 

 

 

Bioware is usually very open minded and designs mature entertainment. Showing such reality is not mature enough? Prejudices exist, are part of the franchise and the guy just pointed out another one that should've been present.

 

If the matter is bothersome, then the many examples of racism and discrimination in the game should also bother in the same proportion.

[Unpleasant Implications]

Oh dear, writers writing with agendas. Never seen that in anything ever.

[Shechinah]

(to Boost32) I think it is more that Gamlen is just a bitter arse. I believe his line of "I guess I don't have to ask which of you is the girl" is also said if you romance Fenris with a female Hawke, though I could be mistaken.

 

(B.A. Broska) They are... If you ignore the racism and classism amongst other things.

 

Out of curiousity, I do not recall us being able to make many or really any sexistic remarks in Origins. Can anyone remember if it was possible for the player to do so?