269 réponses à ce sujet

[Precursor Meta]

Tis the way of the psyche of the world. A while ago you'd be looked Down upon for accepting or acknowledging others that are LGBT. But the world seems to be doing a 180 and the exact opposite seems to be happening.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Tis the way of the psyche of the world. A while ago you'd be looked Down upon for accepting or acknowledging others that are LGBT. But the world seems to be doing a 180 and the exact opposite seems to be happening.

Treating LGBT people like they're just people rather then perverts or crazy is a bad thing?

Is pretty sad that it seems so many people still would see me as some kinda lesser person with something wrong mentally just for finding other women sexually attractive, why the hell is it such a big deal who someone sleeps with?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Treating LGBT people like they're just people rather then perverts or crazy is a bad thing?

Is pretty sad that it seems so many people still would see me as some kinda lesser person with something wrong mentally just for finding other women sexually attractive, why the hell is it such a big deal who someone sleeps with?

 

I'm more worried about how people seem to hate people for not being LGBT. Like if you're okay with your gender, and appearance, and aren't troubled by your sexuality, suddenly your some oppressive sith lord trying to rob people of their rights just by existing. Hell, even the word CIS sounds an awful lot like SITH, almost like its meant to sound like a horrible disease, like a CYST. It's weird, and I would think people who fought for and supported equality for everyone, wouldn't be so quick to pull the double standard bias on others. Go figure, I suppose.

[9TailsFox]

I'm more worried about how people seem to hate people for not being LGBT. Like if you're okay with your gender, and appearance, and aren't troubled by your sexuality, suddenly your some oppressive sith lord trying to rob people of their rights just by existing. Hell, even the word CIS sounds an awful lot like SITH, almost like its meant to sound like a horrible disease, like a CYST. It's weird, and I would think people who fought for and supported equality for everyone, wouldn't be so quick to pull the double standard bias on others. Go figure, I suppose.

[Chiramu]

lol amazes me how much people care about video games these days. 

 

Why are you posting on this forum if you don't care about video games?

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

I'm more worried about how people seem to hate people for not being LGBT. Like if you're okay with your gender, and appearance, and aren't troubled by your sexuality, suddenly your some oppressive sith lord trying to rob people of their rights just by existing. Hell, even the word CIS sounds an awful lot like SITH, almost like its meant to sound like a horrible disease, like a CYST. It's weird, and I would think people who fought for and supported equality for everyone, wouldn't be so quick to pull the double standard bias on others. Go figure, I suppose.

That kinda thing is why i dislike labels, people would likely have a easier time accepting each other if society wasn't obsessed with putting people in little marked boxes & having a "your either with us or against us" mentality

[KaiserShep]

We have enough LGBT in the our real life. Why did Bioware stick this psychological human disease even in the game?

 

Possibly to cheese off ignoramuses.

[DirkJake]

 

 

We have enough LGBT in the our real life. Why did Bioware stick this psychological human disease even in the game?

 

Disagree. There are just not enough LGBT people in the real life. 

 

And no, being LGBT is not a "psychological human disease." It amuses me to see there are people who still think it is.

[B.A. Broska]

What was presented in the post that you quoted really had nothing to do with logic or reason.

 

Well I guess it is no surprise that you would say that as we are on the Dragon Age forum and residents of the Dragon Age are notoriously stubborn when it comes to acknowledging logic and reason so I guess you just proved my point.

 

Don't mind me though I am just here to observe the shitshow, I have nothing I really want to add to the convo

[Cainhurst Crow]

Also, if bioware's attempt to portray the "gay struggle" was dorian, they didn't really do a good job. Dorians great, and he's gay, and his backstory is a magic aristocrat version of the "Have you ever tried not being a mutant" trope((Thank you X-men 2 for that line.)). But it feels oddly disconnected with the rest of Dorian's character, especially since he seems pretty damn comfortable with who he is, and what he likes, and finds his family and nation to be wrong. Which isn't really a struggle, since dorian's not in conflict about being gay. He's in conflict at his father's hypocrisy, in trying to use blood magic to change him, and is struggling with his emotions over his fathers seeming betrayal.

 

Which, fortunately, lgbt members do not hold a monopoly on. Hell, I'm pretty sure a lot of people have a "my dad tried to change me because he wanted me to get into X", usually it involves a sport, but it can be other stuff as well. Dorian's struggle are all related to him and his fathers difference, which is transcendental of a persons sexuality all together. Most people have rocky relationships with their fathers, males especially, and they can be sources of extreme emotional pain and anger, like what dorian feels. Does a difference of sexuality increase this rocky relationship? Yes, but its not like it only occurs in families with lgbt children and non-lgbt parents.

 

So if this was meant to be an exploration of Dorian's struggle with being gay, it kinda really failed and only served as an exploration into a dysfunctional family dynamic, which is only amplified by dorians description of his Mother and Fathers arranged marriage, and the resolution of his side quest where him and his father attempt reconciliation helps reinforce that it was more a family than an lgbt struggle.

 

Personally, I'm glad for that, because the last thing we needed was an angsty altus whining about whether they should or shouldn't be who they are. We got enough of that coming from Cole, Iron Bull, and Blackwall for my liking. It's good to see portrayals like Sera and Dorian, who are fine with who they are, and whose problems aren't a result of their sexualities but rather other issues everyone faces. A person is defined by more than just one trait, and that should apply to LGBT people as much as it does straight/cis/normal people in writing.

[ThreeF]

 

 

Yet, only now, is this argument brought up about "you have to play with a marchers/thedasian outlook because reasons".

Erm..why anyone would use this argument for any of the other instances? It fits here. Rejecting Andraste can be an act of rebellion, or act of a questioning mind, nothing strange there. Being  tolerant of Qun's view can be seen as an act of stupidity, naivety or a diplomatic maneuver. Freeing mages could be seen again as an act of rebellion, naivety, basic human decency or a cold practicality. Being a homophobe for the sake of being one would actually be bizarre, homophobia typically develops in environments where the religion and social structure/gender views allows for it to develop, nothing in Thedas, neither its religion nor gender role dynamics supports this and I do think that Gamlen's "girl" comment   (if addressed only to males) is out of place, being called a girl implies views that do not exist in Thedas.

 

 

Face it, bioware removed the option to play evil characters, and with this one, removed any sort of roleplaying at all.

Yes, you can't be  homophobe because there is no  evil option.  I mean how can you be evil or role-play at all if you don't include a tad of gay bashing, very game breaking. That's the issue here .

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

+
 
We have enough LGBT in the our real life. Why did Bioware stick this psychological human disease even in the game?

This is sarcasm directed at the OP's blatant obvious dislike of LGBT people right?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Erm..why anyone would use this argument for any of the other instances? It fits here. Rejecting Andraste can be an act of rebellion, or act of a questioning mind, nothing strange there. Being  tolerant of Qun's view can be seen as an act of stupidity, naivety or a diplomatic maneuver. Freeing mages could be seen again as an act of rebellion, naivety, basic human decency or a cold practicality. Being a homophobe for the sake of being one would actually be bizarre, homophobia typically develops in environments where the religion and social structure/gender views allows for it to develop, nothing in Thedas, neither its religion nor gender role dynamics supports this and I do think that Gamlen's "girl" comment   (if addressed only to males) is out of place, being called a girl implies views that do not exist in Thedas.

 

 

Yes, you can't be  homophobe because there is no  evil option.  I mean how can you be evil or role-play at all if you don't include a tad of gay bashing, very game breaking. That's the issue here .

 

Who said anything about being homophobic?  I just wanted to tell dorian, one ****** being a ****** to everyone else, thst he aught to have gone through with the arranged marriage anyway. Had a kid, had a guy on the side for love, and gotten more political power out of it.

 

Bioware apparently didnt want to make a power oriented character, evidently, where this sequence was concerned. Did everything else to accumulate more power and influence,  and told everyone else to do the same. Iron bull killed his friends so I could get an alliance with the qun. Allied with the noble and pissed off sera. Pretty much was able to do thst kind of thing to everyone but dorian. Still, at least thanks to thst, I found an excuse to romance the guy. If I can't act like a douche to him, must mean my chars got some dumb emotional feelings for the guy, so there's rhst I guess.

[ThreeF]

Who said anything about being homophobic? 

OP did.

 

 

At least with this quest, there is no dialogue option whatsoever that would outright condemn Dorian for being gay in the first place; for whatever personal or roleplaying reason the player would have.

[Bob Walker]

Good or bad, I still think that quest is mainly about Dorian's relationship with his father, rather than about he being gay.

 

As a side note, I think the real "dark world" is our real world with several bigots galore.

[Dutchess]

 

TL;DR: Freedom of action/free will should be the focus of the quest, not his sexuality, because being unable to freely express his sexuality was only one of the problems Dorian faced in Tevinter. I think it would have made for a more compelling quest, to have the control part emphasized instead of the sex... but that's just me.

 

This (and the rest of the post). Homophobic reactions aren't really required (although Warden could say they have an issue with Zevran liking men) and don't add much to roleplaying. It's the marriage part we should be allowed to have an opinion of other than being totally on Dorian's side. 

 

The problem with Dorian's quest and issue is that it is so obviously written from a "modern" viewpoint. "I'm not allowed to be myself" is Dorian's problem and it's why we're supposed to feel sorry for him. And in a modern context we can relate to that, say it does indeed suck to not be allowed to love who you want and be yourself.  Nowadays it's a magical dismissal to criticism to yell "OMG I'M JUST BEING MYSELF". But in a Medieval-based setting it doesn't work that well and Dorian's big issue threatens to become petty.

 

He is a pampered noble, comes from apparently the only decent family of Tevinter nobles, a family who does love him and care about him (it's obvious his father loves Dorian, even after his mind reset attempt), is guaranteed a life of wealth and prestige, has slaves tending to all his needs and will never go hungry. The only thing he needs to do in exchange is marry a woman and sire an heir to continue the family line. Dude, does your life suck!

If we put Dorian's plight next to that of slaves (you know, the ones peeling Dorian's grapes), of City Elves living in poverty and squalor, of dwarven casteless who have to beg and steal to survive, of southern mages who get dragged away from their parents and locked up in a Tower, then he really doesn't have it bad. When we have characters like Fenris, who was subjected to years of abuse, lost his memory of the family he had and what it's like to have people love you and care about you, and who has had to fight for his freedom for years, or Zevran, who never knew his parents, was sold to the Crows at a young age and mercilessly drilled into being an assassin without a chance to get out, or Alistair, who also has never known what it's like to have a family who loves you and who was given to the Chantry at a young age to become a lyrium-addicted Templar.... then it's hard to take Dorian's big personal problem as sufficient reason to feel sorry for him and side with him unconditionally. 

 

It's because of the modern parallels that we are supposed to empathize with Dorian, but within the actual setting it falls flat, but Bioware doesn't want it to fall flat so you are forced to condemn papa Pavus' actions and support Dorian. This also betrays that the quest really is about Dorian being gay, and not a stance against arranged marriage, as I've seen many people claim.

 

If it was just about arranged marriage, we would have had the option to tell Dorian he should have gone through with it and suck it up. Everybody seems to conveniently forget we could do that exact thing before: with Alistair and/or Anora. You get to shove Alistair into the arranged, loveless marriage so abhorred by Dorian and his supporters and he just has to deal with it. He hardly gets to protest about it either, as most of Alistair's objections are to him becoming King. If a non-noble Warden was in a romance with Alistair, being his mistress on the side here is presented as a good outcome, one of the few possibilities you have to not break the romance. Suck it up, right?

 

So what makes Dorian's case different, aside from the fact that he is gay?

[Dermain]

I can't help it if you don't get it. Dorian doesn't strut about like a flamingo and declare, I LOVE men. His quest is only derived from the fact that his father is a complete douche who doesn't accept his son... His SON as created by the MAKER. Dorian cannot help who he chooses to be attracted to.

 

God created him as he is, yet his father seeks to CURE him of his disease, a diease that is not a disease, but is in fact the way he is born. He loves whom he loves, Period. No cure needed. No change needed, unless you look to a book written 2000 years ago that tells you Homosexuality is an abomination.... the same book that tells you a rebellious child should be taken to the city gates and stoned to death, there is no issue other than, I hate homosexuals and want to be able to elucidate that, otherwise, BW is being unfair to my homophobic beliefs. 

 

My characters don't object to his homosexuality as they don't object to anyone else's heterosexuality. If it makes no sense to you, great, move along and pretend you don't have a bias against homosexuals.

 

Am I the only one that thought that Dorian's father was upset because Dorian didn't want to take a wife and have children instead of the whole gay issue?

 

To me, it felt like Dorian didn't want marry a woman and have children with her, and that is what his father was upset about and wanted to "correct". Which given Tevinter's eugenics campaign would be seen as more "problematic". Although I suppose they're equally problematic, but I'm assuming that most of the gay magisters attempt to keep appearances with the whole wife/kid thing. Dorian seemed to be rebelling at the entire eugenics system, and his father wanted to stop that. 

 

It didn't seem like Dorian being gay was the actual issue, but I have a feeling that most people have taken it that way.

 

 

If it was just about arranged marriage, we would have had the option to tell Dorian he should have gone through with it and suck it up. Everybody seems to conveniently forget we could do that exact thing before: with Alistair and/or Anora. You get to shove Alistair into the arranged, loveless marriage so abhorred by Dorian and his supporters and he just has to deal with it. He hardly gets to protest about it either, as most of Alistair's objections are to him becoming King. If a non-noble Warden was in a romance with Alistair, being his mistress on the side here is presented as a good outcome, one of the few possibilities you have to not break the romance. Suck it up, right?

 

So what makes Dorian's case different, aside from the fact that he is gay?

 

Except that both Alistair and Anora were not averse to actually falling in love down the line. Neither of them protest the actual arrangement, in fact, they actually consider it a win-win scenario. There's a Therin on the throne, and Anora gets to control the majority of the government.

 

It's a bit different when one side is protesting. 

 

+

 

We have enough LGBT in the our real life. Why did Bioware stick this psychological human disease even in the game?

 

Homosexuality was removed from the DSM as an actual psychological disorder two/three versions ago. Any clinical psychologist that tells you otherwise is either not a psychologist or should have their license revoked.

[cronshaw]

Some people are giving OP and those who agree with the OP far more nuanced and thoughtful replies than they deserve.

[BioWareMod02]

As this topic has been fully discussed, this thread will now be locked.