269 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

You start a sentence with "writing a story" and then finish with "is effectively asking the player..." You do understand that telling a story is not the same thing as asking questions, I hope?

 

It's exactly the same thing. The whole point of a story spending time on a topic is to have the audience consider it. Do you somehow imagine that if I write a book about bananas, the reader would never think about or consider bananas while reading it? If 'bananas' never once enters their head while reading my book, why are they even reading a book about bananas in the first place? What do you think the whole point of communication is? When I start a conversation about apples, I do so because I want the other person to think about apples.

 

If your implication is that stories are required to give you the option to express your opinion about every possible scenario while you experience the story, then you are going to spend your life disappointed about most things, because that is neither possible, nor a reasonable thing to ask for.

 

A laughable strawman. When a story prompts the protagonist to answer whether homosexuality is okay or not, the protagonist being given the option to say some variation of 'it's not okay' is hardly some far-fetched, esoteric response. It's a incredibly basic and expected possible response.

[BSpud]

http://www.charisman...ed-in-classroom

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[ComedicSociopathy]

A laughable strawman. When a story prompts the protagonist to answer whether homosexuality is okay or not, the protagonist being given the option to say some variation of 'it's not okay' is hardly some far-fetched, esoteric response. It's a incredible basic and expected possible response.

 

The story isn't asking you whether homosexuality is okay or moral. It's asking you whether you care about Dorian and his issues with his father. The option to say "it's not okay" would make sense in our world, but not in Thedas where for the most part homophobia is not a thing. 

[BabyPuncher]

The story isn't asking you whether homosexuality is okay or moral. It's asking you whether you care about Dorian and his issues with his father. The option to say "it's not okay" would make sense in our world, but not in Thedas where for the most part homophobia is not a thing. 

 

That's probably true. I only played through the mission once I and I picked dialogue that said there's nothing wrong with being gay. And I honestly don't remember it that well, so I'm mostly relying on secondhand accounts.

 

However, I did see this occur with Krem. And it irritated me.

 

From the dialogue, the Inquisitor is clearly pretty clueless about transgender people. When they discuss it with Bull and second guess that Krem's a 'real man,' the issue is exactly that - whether Krem's a 'real man' or not. And the Inquisitor isn't given any option to respond after Bull claims that he is, basically implying agreement.

[Ash Wind]

I don't quite understand this joke as a comparison , and that doesn't even make sense. 

 

It's easy. Dorian is bringing the fact that he is gay as an issue in his personal quest. It isn't the player, it's Dorian. The whole affair is I'm gay and my family does not like it and tried to change me. And after obviously he is asking help, and you have variety of choices and dialogue options. Did you have any of that or close with an hetero character ? No. That's probably why then, you never had to figure out about something like that. The fact is that dragon ag is an RPG, if there is a specific issue that the player has to deal with, an issue brought by Bioware, it's probably better to have different possibilities to react for the sake of RP. 

 

Given that the op has apparently no issues with the lack of douchebag options in DAI, but has suddenly a problem with Dorian and not being able to say ' you are disgusting ' , I am pretty sure that he has zero legetimate reasons to complain.

 

However, Bioware should be careful next time. I didn't like what they did with Krem, where you have zero possibilities to respond to Iron Bull patronizing you about Krem. I hated that part. You are bringing this issue to my character that I should roleplay as I wish ? Then you are going to give me several ways to react in this case. If you don't want that Bioware, then do not bring this issue at all. 

 

More generally. I should be able to play a racist, an evil man, a jerk  if I want to. It should be a possibility. I'm pretty sure that in mass effect I was able to play a racist jerk since I played one, that was a good thing, and I hate racism in real life. People should be able to know the difference between roleplay and irl points of views. This. is. a video. game. rpg. That's it. 

 

Roleplaying isn't supposed to be about irl politics and political correctness. I want that sh*t out of my game. I'm really disturbed that we can hardly be a jerk in DA:I.

 

Now, for Doran, I had zero issues. so, I should probably remain out of that thread, since it is specifically about his quest.

I can't help it if you don't get it. Dorian doesn't strut about like a flamingo and declare, I LOVE men. His quest is only derived from the fact that his father is a complete douche who doesn't accept his son... His SON as created by the MAKER. Dorian cannot help who he chooses to be attracted to.

 

God created him as he is, yet his father seeks to CURE him of his disease, a diease that is not a disease, but is in fact the way he is born. He loves whom he loves, Period. No cure needed. No change needed, unless you look to a book written 2000 years ago that tells you Homosexuality is an abomination.... the same book that tells you a rebellious child should be taken to the city gates and stoned to death, there is no issue other than, I hate homosexuals and want to be able to elucidate that, otherwise, BW is being unfair to my homophobic beliefs. 

 

My characters don't object to his homosexuality as they don't object to anyone else's heterosexuality. If it makes no sense to you, great, move along and pretend you don't have a bias against homosexuals.

[ComedicSociopathy]

That's probably true. I only played through the mission once I and I picked dialogue that said there's nothing wrong with being gay. And I honestly don't remember it that well, so I'm mostly relying on secondhand accounts.

 

However, I did see this occur with Krem. And it irritated me.

 

From the dialogue, the Inquisitor is clearly pretty clueless about transgender people. When they discuss it with Bull and second guess that Krem's a 'real man,' the issue is exactly that - whether Krem's a 'real man' or not. And the Inquisitor isn't given any option to respond after Bull claims that he is, basically implying agreement.

 

Well to be fair, Iron Bull did look like he was going to bite off the Inquisitor's head if they said anything disparaging about Krem. I was in my ugly beige pajamas's with no weapons and surrounded by hardened mercenaries. 

 

I sure wasn't going to ****** them off. 

[leaguer of one]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm laughing at both sides on this.

[KaiserShep]

Isn't shemlen just the elvish word for human?

 

Technically it means "quick children", but pretty much.

[BSpud]

Dorian being gay is tangential to the issue he and his father have. It's Dorian's refusal to be in a marriage and procreate. So all this silly culture war outrage for nothing.

[leaguer of one]

That's probably true. I only played through the mission once I and I picked dialogue that said there's nothing wrong with being gay. And I honestly don't remember it that well, so I'm mostly relying on secondhand accounts.

 

However, I did see this occur with Krem. And it irritated me.

 

From the dialogue, the Inquisitor is clearly pretty clueless about transgender people. When they discuss it with Bull and second guess that Krem's a 'real man,' the issue is exactly that - whether Krem's a 'real man' or not. And the Inquisitor isn't given any option to respond after Bull claims that he is, basically implying agreement.

No it did not. We're not asked one way or another. Krem is shown as a tran and that's it. Nothing was there about the right or wrong about dealing with one was ever there. Just what he is and his back ground.

[Errationatus]

"Should be able" to play a racist, homophobic, misogynist douchebag a-hole of a hero...?

 

...of a hero?

 

Hero.

 

Uhm...

 

Am I missing something?  I'm at a loss, here.  Is this an actual thing, that people want the option to play a piece of weak crap?

 

Well, hell - here's the perfect game:

 

"SLAUGHTERFACTION.  You play Hans Jobbe, hero of the Third Reich and Captain in the Waffen-SS.  Fight your way across Europe as you bond with your Aryan brothers against the ignorant Juden-led commies!  Establish concentration camps for resources, enslave, rape and murder Jews, Slavs, Gypsies and Homosexuals!  Ruthlessly murder millions of Russians! Conquer the world in the name of Die Blut and Der Fuhrer! Sieg Heil!"

 

That game would have everything one so disposed could possibly want!  All the cool edgy rebellion one can eat! 

 

Who should be able to make it?  They have the right to make it.  Free expression, 'artistic freedom'.  Just like they had the right to make Postal or Manhunter or the Shoot JFK simulator.  (I blew that sumb!tch away before he even drew parallel with the Depository.  Pity I couldn't play Jack Ruby too. Two for one, yeah.)

 

Who should be able to promote it?  How much money is sunk into its marketing?  Who is it marketed to - that all-important Self-Loathing-We-Cut-Ourselves-For-Attention-Because-Mommy-Fed-Us-Baloney-On-The-Floor demographic?

 

Who should be able to buy it?  Go get that Mo and bring an e-vaper with a skull on it, hardass.  Leave the 'raspberry pony twirl' at home and take the macho 'burnt arseholes of my enemies'.  First impressions are everything.

 

Is this about the option to play such a character, y'know, just about the choice to play the scumbag if'n ya wanna, or the "right" to play such a character or the vicarious thrill to play such a character?  Or should gaming companies that make fantasy games about heroes and heroines saving the world from evil with dragons and elves need to be rife with edgy to-the-moment sexual and racial politics?  When were they tagged as social teaching tools? I missed the memo.

 

Cass is straight.  Dorian is gay.  Sera is gay.  Iron Bull is equal opportunity, Josie is too. You can play gay.  That they are being portrayed as sympathetically as possible (hopefully) is a Good Thing™.  The haters can hate them on their own time in their own bunkers.  The Gay will not seep from the screen and infect anyone not already inclined.  The Agenda has special agents for that.  They bring bubblegum and muffins and Magic cards (that's how you spot them!). 

 

People absolutely have the right to hate.

 

People don't have the right to force me to shell out seventy bucks so they can masturbate to it.  I'm afraid I can't support such a position at this time. 

 

OoO - muffins!

[kalasaurus]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

My reaction at the source.

[leaguer of one]

Dorian being gay is tangential to the issue he and his father have. It's Dorian's refusal to be in a marriage and procreate. So all this silly culture war outrage for nothing.

^This. Anyone with a brain can see this. The issue would be still there if Dorian was straight and still refuse to marry the girl he was set with.

[TheJediSaint]

Dorian being gay is tangential to the issue he and his father have. It's Dorian's refusal to be in a marriage and procreate. So all this silly culture war outrage for nothing.

Honestly, I thought the crux of the issue was that Dorian's father betrayed him.

[leaguer of one]

Honestly, I thought the crux of the issue was that Dorian's father betrayed him.

This ,too.  It's both the case that Dorian's refusal to be in a marriage and procreate and that his  father betrayed him.

[BabyPuncher]

No it did not. We're not asked one way or another. Krem is shown as a tran and that's it. Nothing was there about the right or wrong about dealing with one was ever there. Just what he is and his back ground.

 

The Inquisitor stays silent when Bull claims Krem is a 'real man.' Certainly wouldn't be as bad as the Inquisitor automatically responding "You're completely right," but it is still an implied agreement.

[ComedicSociopathy]

"Should be able" to play a racist, homophobic, misogynist douchebag a-hole of a hero...?

 

...of a hero?

 

Hero.

 

Uhm...

 

Am I missing something?  I'm at a loss, here.  Is this an actual thing, that people want the option to play a piece of weak crap?

 

Well, hell - here's the perfect game:

 

"SLAUGHTERFACTION.  You play Hans Jobbe, hero of the Third Reich and Captain in the Waffen-SS.  Fight your way across Europe as you bond with your Aryan brothers against the ignorant Juden-led commies!  Establish concentration camps for resources, enslave, rape and murder Jews, Slavs, Gypsies and Homosexuals!  Ruthlessly murder millions of Russians! Conquer the world in the name of Die Blut and Der Fuhrer! Sieg Heil!"

 

That game would have everything one so disposed could possibly want!  All the cool edgy rebellion one can eat! 

 

Who should be able to make it?  They have the right to make it.  Free expression, 'artistic freedom'.  Just like they had the right to make Postal or Manhunter or the Shoot JFK simulator.  (I blew that sumb!tch away before he even drew parallel with the Depository.  Pity I couldn't play Jack Ruby too. Two for one, yeah.)

 

Who should be able to promote it?  How much money is sunk into its marketing?  Who is it marketed to - that all-important Self-Loathing-We-Cut-Ourselves-For-Attention-Because-Mommy-Fed-Us-Baloney-On-The-Floor demographic?

 

Who should be able to buy it?  Go get that Mo and bring an e-vaper with a skull on it, hardass.  Leave the 'raspberry pony twirl' at home and take the macho 'burnt arseholes of my enemies'.  First impressions are everything.

 

Is this about the option to play such a character, y'know, just about the choice to play the scumbag if'n ya wanna, or the "right" to play such a character or the vicarious thrill to play such a character?  Or should gaming companies that make fantasy games about heroes and heroines saving the world from evil with dragons and elves need to be rife with edgy to-the-moment sexual and racial politics?  When were they tagged as social teaching tools? I missed the memo.

 

Cass is straight.  Dorian is gay.  Sera is gay.  Iron Bull is equal opportunity, Josie is too. You can play gay.  That they are being portrayed as sympathetically as possible (hopefully) is a Good Thing™.  The haters can hate them on their own time in their own bunkers.  The Gay will not seep from the screen and infect anyone not already inclined.  The Agenda has special agents for that.  They bring bubblegum and muffins and Magic cards (that's how you spot them!). 

 

People absolutely have the right to hate.

 

People don't have the right to force me to shell out seventy bucks so they can masturbate to it.  I'm afraid I can't support such a position at this time. 

 

OoO - muffins!

 

[Majestic Jazz]

[Trophonius]

So what is it do you want, exactly? The right to be homophobic in the game? Perhaps we should've been given additional dialogue options to reject companions because they're straight. See how asinine that sounds?

Portraying diverse and complex sexualities isn't an agenda. It's called reflecting the real world.

[Grieving Natashina]

No one in Thedas cares about who you bang, unless you're nobility.  Even then, if you've produced an heir or two, no one really gives a crap outside of Tevinter.  Tevinter doesn't care about homosexuals that much either, except they are hung up on the creating the ultimate mage.  That's not about morality, which seems to be the crux of the statement "I don't agree with your lifestyle."  Besides, Dorian's dad would have been peachy-keen if Dorian had been willing to live a lie.  You know, get married to some poor gal, have a couple of kids and have the most serious relationship with another man be a slave.  Yet always keeping up appearances to everyone else.  

 

I never got the impression Dorian's dad cared if Dorian was gay, he cared more that Dorian wasn't bowing to his wishes.

 

So, the OP wants the writers to change the established lore that states the attitude of Thedas regarding homosexuality, in order for his PC to have the option to go, "You're gay and repugnant for it?"    I can understand that there was a severe lack of non-Dudley Do-Right options in this game, but can we pick something that doesn't contradict established lore?

 

Well, this is better than the thread that had the OP and others stating that Dorian's father should have used blood magic and that the player should have the same option to turn all the LGBT companions straight.  

 

Edit: I never took Dorian talking about "I'm sure you've heard of it in Southern Thedas," as anything but him being a bit emotional at the time.  I've known plenty of men, gay and straight, that will fall back on snark and sarcasm when in a high stress situation.

[JJDXB]

I think it would have been more compelling if the player was allowed to voice potential disgust in Dorian.  In fact, I'm really sure there is an option for that, along the lines of "Keep away from me", at the same time options for things like "I've more than heard of it". 

 

The thing is is that Dorian and the Character must be aware by now that Southern Thedas is not as discriminating, but Dorian's like "surely you've heard of [the concept of same-sex attraction]" which is somewhat sarcastic, but then the player can respond as if they're completely in the dark about it.  I mean really?  How would an adult from a society where it's not discrimated against not know what homosexuality entails?  The entire conversation isn't natural for the setting.  It makes no sense unless the devs wrote it as a sort of very ham-handed enlightening conversation for players who have yet to be convinced that homosexuals aren't evil rapist murderers. 

 

I'm not attacking them for this, because these issues are very important to me as a gay man, but I think if they were trying to help improve popular opinion of homosexuals, they should have laid down the 'agenda' a little differently.  It would have been better if Dorian could confront you and have an argument about your disapproval of his homosexuality at Skyhold.  You aren't going to convince anyone, and I believe that you should always at least try to, by simply telling them they're wrong.  That has never worked and never will; it's the equivalent of saying "I'm right because I am".  It's the same with the conversation with Krem.  It isn't going to convince anyone who isn't already supportive of LGBT rights.

 

TL:DR both in-game conversations about LGBT issues were handled poorly.  Not because they were pushing an agenda, but because they're too obvious and completely ineffective.

[leaguer of one]

The Inquisitor stays silent when Bull claims Krem is a 'real man.' Certainly wouldn't be as bad as the Inquisitor automatically responding "You're completely right," but it is still an implied agreement.

No....Staying Silent means staying silent. You make it mean what you want it to mean. It's not an automatic implied anything.

[leaguer of one]

*Sighs*

 

To think I was doing so well in rehab...

 

 

*Leaves thread*

[KaiserShep]

It'd be kind of funny to be able to show disapproval despite being in a romance with Iron Bull as a man, or Sera or Josephine as a woman.

 

Inquisitor: I prefer not to be exposed to that sort of thing. Just keep your distance. DORIAN GREATLY DISAPPROVES

 

Dorian: You're...you're joking, right? Surely my eyes were not playing tricks on me when you dallied with that elf on the roof of the tavern.

 

Inquisitor: Well...any more exposure. DORIAN SLIGHTLY DISAPPROVES