119 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

Maybe the next pro-human group should focus on getting stuff done that actually benefits humanity instead of carrying out lots of projects that severely back fire and end up putting half the galaxy in danger and actively working against humanity and the rest of the galaxy in times of crisis. Since Cerberus does more of the later rather than the former in the trilogy, ONI from the halo franchise is a good example of a morally grey pro-human organization done correctly.

 

I feel Bioware alternates between forms of:

 

http://tvtropes.org/...AndGrayMorality

and

http://tvtropes.org/...AndGreyMorality

 

The protagonist is ultimately the good guy, even if we can make them less good as a person (through RP tone).

The antagonist is ultimately the bad guy, even if we can make them less bad as a person (through RP tone).

(One of the most blatant heroic stories is having a Paragon Anti-Cerberus character, and one of the most grey stories is having a Renegade Pro-ish-Cerberus character - ME2 is clear in how to do this, but ME3 may require a mixture of types of choices)

(Bioware doesn't really do utterly Black morality, especially for their protagonists. And even when a villain seems totally Black, something is done at some point to reduce that element in some way.)

 

Thus why I tend to regard Cerberus as Grey, but still when I elaborate, I really mean Dark Grey. They're still bad. They're still screwups (honestly I agree with you). But they still did some things that were utterly necessary for success against the bigger enemy, and they still had ideals that both were necessary in order to progress, and ideals that will likely continue onward for humanity.

But were most of their actions worth it? Nopppeeeee.

And will most of their ideals continue onward? Nopeeeee, at least not by a consensus of the good side of the future society.

But enough will, and that's good enough for TIM I guess. He seemed willing to play the darkness of humanity in order for it to advance to match the Reapers. I consider him our Lucifer, or Hades, or whatever other similar enough figure.

 

Cerberus (myth) was basically a monster, but it still played its necessary role.

Shepard/Heracles slays Cerberus and moves into his afterlife. Without the c/Cerberus, Shepard would not have succeeded, and humanity would not have ascended. It may not be in the form TIM wanted or was driven to want by the Reapers (we could debate for hours about which was the truth there), but it happens, due to both Cerberus actions and ideals in play.

 

I'm not actually defending Cerberus itself. It was meant to be killed, and for good reason. But it also was useful and introduced ideas to humanity and the galaxy that may not have otherwise been there through the 'Alliance' alone.

A great example is the Ascension Project. It seems peaceful, done safely, and for the actual betterment of humanity. However, the initial exposure of biotics seemed to be a Cerberus covert action (AS an ALLIANCE group). And the initial testing of biotics (BAaT) may have been an early Cerberus setup (through front companies) as well. Through Cerberus, we may have had our biotics ready for the Reaper invasion when we otherwise would have had none/few. But through the emerging more progressive Alliance, we do biotics right. Cerberus presents itself as an overall necessary evil, until they're not, and they have to be superseded by something actually superior.

 

Bioware has a thing for taking the better parts of previous forms of characters or ancient organizations, and bringing them back in a purer or more positively aligned form. I'm not saying Cerberus will be back, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something new come out of something old, and have it grow to significantly more substantial success than Cerberus itself did.

 

For the record, I undermined Cerberus whenever I could through ME1-ME2, though I did try to get Shepard to have TIM stand down and pool resources in ME3 (which obviously the script has him fail at anyway).

[Drone223]

*snip*

Except TIM didn't do it to advance humanity he had his own agenda and actively tried to stop Shepard and the galaxy from stopping the reapers. They showed a lot of incompetence in the entire series and what advancements humanity made Cerberus had little or no involvement in them. In fact cause more problems for humanity than benefits, Bioware was trying to write them as morally grey group but we got a group of mad scientist instead and inconsistent writing in all three games didn't help either.

[Mcfly616]

It would've been cool if they remained the shadow op/org they were in ME1, and then in the last few hours of ME3 the curtain was slowly pull back to reveal that they were the ones hindering our progress throughout the game. Then their motives should've been revealed, connecting the dots all the way back to their experiments in ME1.

 

 

Would've been much more interesting approach rather than their 'guns blazing/in your face' approach they had in ME3. Ofcourse this would require ME2 be completely rewritten.

[SwobyJ]

Except TIM didn't do it to advance humanity he had his own agenda and actively tried to stop Shepard and the galaxy from stopping the reapers. They showed a lot of incompetence in the entire series and what advancements humanity made Cerberus had little or no involvement in them. In fact cause more problems for humanity than benefits, Bioware was trying to write them as morally grey group but we got a group of mad scientist instead and inconsistent writing in all three games didn't help either.

 

(Caps incoming.)

Yes he did. Turns out his OPINION on HOW to advance humanity ('advancing humanity' being the IDEA but not the METHOD) was not something we agree with.

 

And TIM DID want the stop the Reapers. His METHOD of doing so was what we disagree with.

 

Morally grey does not mean GOOD, dammit.

 

lol

[Drone223]

(Caps incoming.)

Yes he did. Turns out his OPINION on HOW to advance humanity ('advancing humanity' being the IDEA but not the METHOD) was not something we agree with.

 

And TIM DID want the stop the Reapers. His METHOD of doing so was what we disagree with.

 

Morally grey does not mean GOOD, dammit.

 

Nope he actively tied top stop Shepard on several occasions in ME3 and hindered the war effort significantly. Morally grey means doing questionable things to get results not causing more problems, we see none of that with Cerberus we only see them causing more trouble.

[SwobyJ]

Nope he actively tied top stop Shepard on several occasions in ME3 and hindered the war effort significantly. Morally grey means doing questionable things to get results not causing more problems, we see none of that with Cerberus we only see them causing more trouble.

 

Well I guess bringing Shepard back counts as causing a lot of trouble, lol.

[Drone223]

Well I guess bringing Shepard back counts as causing a lot of trouble, lol.

Shepard still followed the trend of experiments working for a while only to end up killing their people.

[SwobyJ]

Shepard still followed the trend of experiments working for a while only to end up killing their people.

 

So?

 

I repeat: Morally grey does not mean good.

[Drone223]

So?

 

I repeat: Morally grey does not mean good.

It also means most of the time getting stuff done that works and not being incompetent and causing even more problems Cerberus did more of the later than the former which is often associated with mad scientist.

[SwobyJ]

It also means most of the time getting stuff done that works and not being incompetent and causing even more problems Cerberus did more of the later than the former which is often associated with mad scientist.

 

Uh okay, this is going in circles, so cheers.

[Solar1101]

Cerberus started off (to players) as a shadowy terrorist organization that was conducting radical experiments and was largely pro-human (ME).  ME2 came along and now Shepard has been conscripted by circumstance if nothing else into Cerberus.  Cerberus interestingly enough is quite factionalized as we never really figure out why that douchebag sabotaged the lab at the beginning anyhow.

 

I had the sneaking suspicion after a while doing all of the side missions on all the planets that TIM was using Shepard to consolidate his partial control of Cerberus into a total one.  TIM's eyes btw are the result of exposure to a prothean device.  But apparently Shepard is the only one who can't be indoctrinated despite the fact that he's hip deep in reapers since day one.

 

So at the end of ME2 when you have the chance to turn over the collector base there is no real reason to do it.  Shepard knows that the illusive man won't deal with him honestly and that he's just a pawn.  TIM gradually came to regret his decision not to have some manner of control over Shepard and for that matter...EDI and the rest of the Normandy.  

 

Then in ME3 TIM takes a left turn into looney land (regardless of your previous choices) and instead of being able to compromise in terms of fighting the reapers he basically tells Shepard to screw off and die since you are never given an option to actually side with Cerberus.  TIM manages to invade the citadel with like...a handful of troops and fight C-SEC quite handily.  Then Shepard shows up with two dudes and wipes his ass with them.  Then you get into a pissing match with your alternate evilness that is Kai Leng.  And no one cares about him...he's just the dragon you have to fight to get to TIM.

 

Meanwhile TIM is wearing plot armor so you don't see him until after the final battle.  So just before the penultimate battle vs Kai Leng you find out Sanctuary is being used to study indoctrination and other forms of reaper tech.  This falls squarely in line with cerberus doctrine and resembles the teltin facility on pragia in terms of methodology.  Also like Teltin **** on Sanctuary goes awry.

 

So now Shepard is extra pissed at TIM and then gets blueballed by Leng at the last moment.  Then after all the near-death speechifying is over we find out that TIM was right all along and the reapers CAN be controlled.  It almost feels like a waste of time having opposed him.  In fact if Shepard had been able to help TIM it would have made for a more interesting plot.

 

Cerberus is a very dark grey in terms of a moral color scale.  However they do have a code and they do stick to it.  I declare them...Neutral Evil.  They are interested in pragmatism and advancing humanity no matter the cost.  Having played the Omega DLC  I can say that they have certainly advanced the science of kinetic barriers to the next level. Bio-engineering as well with the advent of the Adjutants.  Also those awesome perimeter guns on Omega that were one shotting cruisers with SILARIS armor.  Omega probably could have shot down a reaper or two if it wanted to with those upgrades.  TIM had incredible assets and somehow managed to misuse them spectacularly since the end of ME2.

 

It would be awesome if the new hero would get a shield or barrier that did damage to foes in melee based on the collector tech.

 

ME1  - You don't know cerberus well

ME2 - TIM comes off as a reasonable though underhanded person who genuinely wants to aid humanity...and of course he thinks he's the best one to do it.

ME3 - TIM's hubris decides to double down thanks to indoctrination...which as a mechanic is never really explained in a concrete manner.  Shepard is neck deep in reaper tech as are his companions and yet it would seem that the only people who get indoctrinated are people who deserve it in a karmic sense.  

 

Or and I like to think this...Shepard is indoctrinated and everything since the explosion at the Alliance HQ in Canada was a hallucination

[NM_Che56]

Cerberus didn't become evil on it's own. They were all Indoctrinated by the Reapers.

If you go back to the comics (2010's Mass Effect: Evolution), the groundwork was laid during the First Contact War when a man by the name of Jack Harper came into contact with Reaper tech.

[pdusen]

Shepard is neck deep in reaper tech as are his companions and yet it would seem that the only people who get indoctrinated are people who deserve it in a karmic sense. 

 

It's possible that this is intentional.

[Nerve-Stim Pro]

I got the impression you're more likely to get indoctrinated if you crave power. That's what Reapers will entice you with. So an organisation that dreams of human supremacy - not that hard to indoctrinate. Likewise Udina was always wanting humanity more influence on the Council. Shep & Friends were always about the good of everyone and were often reluctant to accept positions of power - not that easy to brainwash.

[Vortex13]

I got the impression you're more likely to get indoctrinated if you crave power. That's what Reapers will entice you with. So an organisation that dreams of human supremacy - not that hard to indoctrinate. Likewise Udina was always wanting humanity more influence on the Council. Shep & Friends were always about the good of everyone and were often reluctant to accept positions of power - not that easy to brainwash.

 

 

What about Renegade Shep?

 

He/She was all about human supremacy.

[Nerve-Stim Pro]

Probably also hard to indoctrinate someone after you destroyed their ship and killed them, along with half their crew

 

I haven't actually played through a Renegade run yet so I can't comment how supremacist ReneShep is. Wouldn't he/she still be something like "chaotic good" with no regard for laws or hurt feelings but nevertheless focused on saving the galaxy?

 

I did sometimes wonder how come no one you trusted ever betrayed you (except Udina and Rachni Queen) but maybe being part of a collective inter-species anti-Reaper mission just keeps you guys together.

[Vortex13]

Well Renegade Shep has always been inconstant in the games, at one point Shepard is a raving lunatic that kills people for the lolz and the next he/she is a pragmatic soldier that is all about the ends justifying the means. The major component of the pure Renegade play through though has always been Shepard being all about humans first, with a small dosage of racism (specism?) thrown in. 

[SwobyJ]

What about Renegade Shep?

 

He/She was all about human supremacy.

 

Over the Reapers.

[katamuro]

Several of the issues you have provided seem to be more of a personal difference of opinion with the direction of the MEU. 

 

i agree with you, at least as far as handling of retcons just for story convenience goes and that the PC controls do need to be made more pc like, especially when the cover is concerned, I cant even count how many times during the games I have made a wrong move just because I got stuck behind some cover and it didnt wish to let me go. 

 

As for the endings, I think that they need to make one world state, one canonized ending(preferably Destroy), from which the next game starts. Creating three different, vastly different world states to start from would make the game too complicated, make too many variables to track and in the end that would reflect on the other parts of the game, most likely making it much worse than if they created one world start. 

Look at the DAI for example, there are many important variables that are tracked but the one thing that is consistent is that,

A)there is a mage-templar war

B)the hole in the sky

C)the general direction of the plot over the previous games

 

Which gives us both the ability to customize the world and gives it an overall consistency no matter what happens. 

The next ME game should have something similar. 

 

Also Destroy is the one ending that offers the biggest possibilities for storytelling, maybe with a retcon or two(geth alive but reverted to their original state, EDI possibly dead), it creates a starting world state which gives the most freedom to both writers and players.

Both Control and Synthesis are quite problematic in the manner in which the world state is fixed. While Control can be tweaked enough to be workable, Synthesis is completely unworkable, it changes too much, creates a much more static universe. 

 

As for the FTL, I think its perfectly fine, it does need improvement but not to an extend of star wars hyperdrives or star treks warp drives. The way FTL works in ME universe is quite good, especially in conjunction with the Mass Relays. 

[SwobyJ]

To me, lol, Synthesis is the ending that essentially reveals that ME3 was virtual all along, so we don't need to worry about the extreme extents of the EC endings. There may be consequences to actions taken, but the next game may very well merge the aspects of all endings into something easier for the writers to deal with (Reapers get defeated + Shep in a Reaper + Everything was in a Reaper + Everything is ruin but will be okay = NME haha).

 

But um, that's if we even run with ME3 being virtual lmaolmao.

 

Besides that, I don't mind a setup where elements of all three endings happen anyway.. especially if they do let some (even minor) things be tailored based on trilogy decisions. If they can do it more tactfully than the Deus Ex games, all the better.