75 réponses à ce sujet

[katamuro]

I'll care more about keeping my vision of the galaxy's development intact, compared to trying to ensure its survival. Others may be the opposite there, but that's them.

 

Can you elaborate?

[SwobyJ]

Can you elaborate?

 

I think a trend from ME3->DAI of Bioware games (its broader than that, but I simplified) will continue, and we'll have greater and greater themes of leader and control and safety and exploration and institutions instead of being the (relative) rebel and destruction and killer and danger and home and family.

 

 

The threat has to fit that. And while there's several ways that could happen, one of those, for Mass Effect, will NOT be the overwhelming army of faceless/monstrous abominations that we have to go to direct war against.

 

DAI has the carry over from that, but even for the Elder One, we have to 'control the map/battlefield'. That's what the game is about. It isn't... AS MUCH... about running the war or personal conflict, but something of larger scale (albeit disappointingly to some players).

 

I expect the same in Mass Effect, just in a different way. I don't know if we'll be about leadership or whatever, but we'll at least be less about 'OMG GIANT ENEMY IS GOING TO EXTINGUISH US ALL' and more about 'If we want to progress on our own terms, we need to do x, y, z'. Maybe for Mass Effect, that'll be more about exploring and finding out secrets, rather than DAI's Inquisition rule, but still, it'll be different than having the whole world/galaxy revolve only around you.

 

 

EDIT: I don't consider DAO and ME1 to be as much in this trend. I consider them 'worldbuilders' foremost - and not 'about' such clear tonal shifts (ME2, DA2, ME3, DAI...).

[katamuro]

Yeah both ME1 and DAO had huge amounts of worldbuilding, had huge amounts of info and felt large, but also they felt a bit tedious sometimes. 

Both ME2 and DA2 were the ones where the art style changed and for the better(mostly), they grew into their worlds, having the base to start from they could explore other ideas. And it felt like in both games you could take them less seriously, for example the whole sarcastic/joking Hawke was brilliant, I so enjoyed playing as that kind of character. Same in ME2, it felt like you could take more risks, take more renegade options.

 

As for ME3 and DAI, they were both at least envisioned as the closing chapters of some characters stories. Both have great content and a lot of good parts but both have frustrations, ME3 has those little technical bits that are not complete, another simplification in hacking/whatever minigames(I actually enjoyed the ones in ME2, at least felt like doing something) and DAI, huge in scope but unfocused, filled with basically busy-work sidequests(the whole shards thing, and then a bunch of other collect missions) which seem to be added just to make the game feel longer. 

 

And both were dealing with the doomsday type of antagonists so the shift could have been foreseen. As for ME4, if they mix exploration with more personal stories of ME2 and add a dash of the greatness that was in a lot of things in ME3(Tuchanka,RannochLeviathan, Citadel) then we would have one awesome game. 

[SwobyJ]

Yeah both ME1 and DAO had huge amounts of worldbuilding, had huge amounts of info and felt large, but also they felt a bit tedious sometimes. 

Both ME2 and DA2 were the ones where the art style changed and for the better(mostly), they grew into their worlds, having the base to start from they could explore other ideas. And it felt like in both games you could take them less seriously, for example the whole sarcastic/joking Hawke was brilliant, I so enjoyed playing as that kind of character. Same in ME2, it felt like you could take more risks, take more renegade options.

 

As for ME3 and DAI, they were both at least envisioned as the closing chapters of some characters stories. Both have great content and a lot of good parts but both have frustrations, ME3 has those little technical bits that are not complete, another simplification in hacking/whatever minigames(I actually enjoyed the ones in ME2, at least felt like doing something) and DAI, huge in scope but unfocused, filled with basically busy-work sidequests(the whole shards thing, and then a bunch of other collect missions) which seem to be added just to make the game feel longer. 

 

And both were dealing with the doomsday type of antagonists so the shift could have been foreseen. As for ME4, if they mix exploration with more personal stories of ME2 and add a dash of the greatness that was in a lot of things in ME3(Tuchanka,RannochLeviathan, Citadel) then we would have one awesome game. 

 

I think my model above would have worked better if DAI was the earlier 'DA3' plan (Hawke?).

Instead, its some bridge between the hypothetical 'DA3' and 'DA4' (again, these don't really exist). The devs took longer than they otherwise would have, and seemed to be wrapping together two big stories (Chantry/Elves). Was prob going to be Hawkequisition vs Cory and much less of the Elf.

 

 

NME could very well be a mix of many of the best elements of all the previous games. They're not going to drop the cinematics of ME3 (though maybe the big-movie-style). They're not going to drop the charisma of ME2 (especially since we don't have a war preoccupying ourselves, imo). They're bringing back the exploration of ME1. Etc.

 

Now the whole context of the next game might suck, but at least we can have confidence that Bioware is trying to make a Mass Effect that wraps up the good parts of, well, Mass Effect.

 

I just think things will be less conflict oriented, and more about expanding systems that have only been relatively just touched on until now (exploration, vehicles... stealth?.... roleplaying?.... factions?.... *shrug*). We have a good combat system set up in ME3. Bioware doesn't need to go crazy in trying to improve that (not that they won't), but instead can show players and fans that they can be more than a space scifi Gears of War.

[Outrider42]

A dark energy plot for the next ME?

 

NO. Just No.

 

A dark energy plot would have been even worse than what ME3 ended up with, by far. Just imagine, the reapers were really just Green Peace in space...yeah. And the only answer is to change our ways and learn to conserve biotics? Oh please. So what would Shepard do, try to preach to people to stop using biotics? That sounds fun! No, actually it does not sound fun at all. There would have been just as many pitchforks with dark energy.

 

And then there is this

"They're interesting and potentially solid ideas, but Karpyshyn cautioned daydreaming fans that they're a long way from fully-cooked and likely would've ended up a disappointment for some people anyway"

 

He's right. No matter how ME ended, there would have been at least a few naysayers.

Plus having a definite barrier to all species that way is frankly kind of depressing.

 

Also, alien overlord species trying to stop a dark energy based Armageddon has already been told. That's basically what Gurren Lagann came down to, as Spiral Energy is essentially Dark Energy. But GL only works because of how awesome it is in the face of its absurdities. I don't think Shepard can pull off those glasses.

[katamuro]

 

I just think things will be less conflict oriented, and more about expanding systems that have only been relatively just touched on until now (exploration, vehicles... stealth?.... roleplaying?.... factions?.... *shrug*). We have a good combat system set up in ME3. Bioware doesn't need to go crazy in trying to improve that (not that they won't), but instead can show players and fans that they can be more than a space scifi Gears of War.

 

What I am hoping they are going to do is with exploration and yet still keeping it within the ME kind of style is that exploration is woven into the story, the main character either needs to find something specific or he is working on pacifying the Terminus systems, or some another variant which would give us both the need to explore and also give us more than a few boring ground missions. It could involve all kinds of things, salvaging crashed reaper or some other tech, archaeology, hitting a pirate/merc/slaver base, going to investigate/rescue/whatever on a planet/space station. 

 

With all of the sidemissions tying into the main story, main plot, 

Basically the sidemissions being the official reason+official job for which our main character goes there but also has that unofficial mission that is the main quest. 

[SwobyJ]

What I am hoping they are going to do is with exploration and yet still keeping it within the ME kind of style is that exploration is woven into the story, the main character either needs to find something specific or he is working on pacifying the Terminus systems, or some another variant which would give us both the need to explore and also give us more than a few boring ground missions. It could involve all kinds of things, salvaging crashed reaper or some other tech, archaeology, hitting a pirate/merc/slaver base, going to investigate/rescue/whatever on a planet/space station. 

 

With all of the sidemissions tying into the main story, main plot, 

Basically the sidemissions being the official reason+official job for which our main character goes there but also has that unofficial mission that is the main quest. 

 

Thankfully ME2-ME3 had something similar.

 

Loyalty Missions and Secondary Missions in ME2-ME3 were, well, obviously sidequests.

 

But they were pretty much all relevant to the big task.

 

Unlike so many sidequests in DAI... *grumble*.

[GalacticWolf5]

A dark energy plot for the next ME?

NO. Just No.

A dark energy plot would have been even worse than what ME3 ended up with, by far. Just imagine, the reapers were really just Green Peace in space...yeah. And the only answer is to change our ways and learn to conserve biotics? Oh please. So what would Shepard do, try to preach to people to stop using biotics? That sounds fun! No, actually it does not sound fun at all. There would have been just as many pitchforks with dark energy.

I'm NOT talking about the Reapers here. Why does everyone keep bringing them up? I'm talking about using the idea of the Dark Energy slowly destroying the world.

Also this is for ME:Next, not ME3.

[Larry-3]

I do not want to fight in a war, I do not want to race against time. I want to explore. Go to places like Illium, Omega, and the Citadel. I do not want to be in the military or even a paramilitary. I want to be a mercenary with a ragtag crew who walks the line between good and bad. I want to be in the neo-noir gritty and dangerous nightlife, I want to visits bars, fly in space, fight mercenaries and scumbags.

Think of Mass Effect 2: you are not in the military, your specter status is optional, and you are just going around the galaxy visiting interesting worlds, meeting new people, and always finding some interesting job to do. I am not saying your character should be a nobody -- maybe you are a minor crime boss with good connections, or an ex-detective turned merc, or something.

Also, I do not want to be a miner. If I need resources I can just purchase them from a shop. Not survey or launch a dozen probes to drill for minerals.

[katamuro]

I'm NOT talking about the Reapers here. Why does everyone keep bringing them up? I'm talking about using the idea of the Dark Energy slowly destroying the world.

Also this is for ME:Next, not ME3.

 

Yeah but having action rpg against a natural disaster is a bit hard. Especially if there are no reapers and the whole thing is just one big accident because using mass effect drives does that. The problem becomes of scientific and engineering in nature. 

[Vortex13]

I'm NOT talking about the Reapers here. Why does everyone keep bringing them up? I'm talking about using the idea of the Dark Energy slowly destroying the world.

Also this is for ME:Next, not ME3.

 

 

Dark Energy is too nebulous (IMO). Half the time the narrative is unsure about what the stuff does, and if we are going to have the major conflict of the game being about how manipulating Dark Energy is going to kill us all, wouldn't that just demonize biotics; people who can manipulate Dark Energy just by twitching their fingers?

 

 

If a future title is going to have a natural disaster as a major focus, I would recommend something like I mention in an earlier post:

 

 

 

 

Consider how black holes; the big boring things that most sci-fi writers assume to be nothing more than celestial vacuum cleaners; can fire death rays, capable of destroying life on planets over intergalactic distances.

 

http://www.nasa.gov/...ews/07-139.html

 

 

If a future title is going to utilize some form of outer space natural disaster; not that I hope that BioWare does; there are many far more interesting, and realistic ways nature can royally screw us over (IMO). 

[SwobyJ]

Yeah but having action rpg against a natural disaster is a bit hard. Especially if there are no reapers and the whole thing is just one big accident because using mass effect drives does that. The problem becomes of scientific and engineering in nature. 

 

One could argue that given the nature of the world of Dragon Age, the Breach is a 'natural' disaster.

 

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

[ForgottenWarrior]

Why ruturn to old ideas when you can create new ones? I thought that having your own IP means full artistic freedom.

Besides, we - players - already know about it.

[katamuro]

One could argue that given the nature of the world of Dragon Age, the Breach is a 'natural' disaster.

 

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

 

Considering it was actually made by an ancient tevinter magister who got turned into a darkspawn, one of the first ones to be sure which was still more of their own doing. Then no. Someone made a conscious decision to do it. It is not a natural disaster. A natural disaster is when you cannot blame something on a sentient. For example the tsunami that hit Fukushima was a natural disaster, the reactor troubles and the worsening situation while caused by the tsunami is not. 

[SwobyJ]

Considering it was actually made by an ancient tevinter magister who got turned into a darkspawn, one of the first ones to be sure which was still more of their own doing. Then no. Someone made a conscious decision to do it. It is not a natural disaster. A natural disaster is when you cannot blame something on a sentient. For example the tsunami that hit Fukushima was a natural disaster, the reactor troubles and the worsening situation while caused by the tsunami is not. 

 

Semantics, but useful ones, so I agree. Thank you. (Though I also think that 'natural disaster' can also just mean 'disaster through the natural processes of the earth'; is a storm from 'climate change' from 'global warming' from 'man made pollution' only a 'natural disaster'? Though we get more philosophical and off-topic with that, so whatever.)

 

Still, do you get my point? We can have a dark energy related story without it boring, or nebulous, or whatever. It can still be good. Would it be my first vote? No. But it could still be good. It doesn't need to be word-for-word what Drew K explained it as.

 

Whether we like it or not, 'dark energy' has been major to how the Mass Effect world works. We can just decide whether we want its presence minimized or maximized or anywhere in between.

[katamuro]

While I agree with you that it could be made interesting through a lot and lot of hard work and far better writing than a lot of games have, the idea just isnt that good. Reapers were a huge, galactic threat, everything seems to involve a huge galactic threat. There is no real need to have one to tell a good story. It easily could be a war brewing, or a new species covertly attacking, or someone exploiting bits of dead reapers to create their own little indoctrinated empire on the fringes of human space. I would rather have that than another doomsday plot. Something serious and something evil and/or quite powerful but not to the extent of reapers. 

[Kabooooom]

If the Ark Theory pans out I have a feeling that it's origins will be tied to Tevos, after Thessia fell, telling Shepard that she needed to make arrangements for the continuance of galactic civilization. The Ark would essentially be the Council's Plan B, in the event the Reapers win. The Ark launches and at some point during it's flight the Reapers lose, but to the people aboard the Ark it no longer matters...they'll be on an epic one-way trip to parts unknown. (Andromeda?)

Or simply off the network altogether. I envision that this will probably be the direction they will go (Drone vehemently disagrees. We'll see).

I imagine the exploration aspect will focus on exploring a new region of the relay network (most likely) which has been entirely cut off from the rest of the network. Likely deliberately, to slow the Reapers advance. The diversity of familiar species and interactions with them will be focused on the central hub - the Ark - a large, Presidium-esque mobile space station. Other hubs would probably be the homeworlds of new alien species.

Eventually, a threat is stumbled across. Here's an example - throughout the Milky Way, "deep anomalies" are present on a number of gas giants. One stated hypothesis in a planet description is that they are "tombs" of an ancient race. The ones on Ploba retract into the lower atmosphere and disappear when approached. WHAT IF they are not "tombs", but cryogenic stasis ships (if organic) or simply ships (if synthetic) of an ancient race that successfully found a way to hide from and evade the Reapers. And they have been waiting...until they were finally defeated. Bioware referred to one of the concept art images of a massive synthetic-esque structure as a "tomb". Just saying.

To recap - explorer protaganist bravely goes where no one has gone before, encounters and awakens ancient alien threat now that reapers are defeated. Threat must be stopped to prevent it from spreading to the rest of the Milky Way at large since the story of ME4 takes place in an isolated region of space. Hijinks and shenanigans ensue. Protagonist saves the day. Hoorah.

In this fashion, the threat is important to the galaxy at large, but it doesn't have to top the Reapers. It doesn't have to be more powerful than the Reapers, but merely present a fear of succumbing to new alien overlords because the galaxy is weakened in a post-war state. It would therefore still present a sense of urgency without needing an invincible enemy. Make them merely an enemy. Not invincible, but superior by circumstance alone.

I imagine some semblance of that is the direction they will take. It is simply FAR too convenient and predictable based on what they have said so far for it to not happen.

[SwobyJ]

While I agree with you that it could be made interesting through a lot and lot of hard work and far better writing than a lot of games have, the idea just isnt that good. Reapers were a huge, galactic threat, everything seems to involve a huge galactic threat. There is no real need to have one to tell a good story. It easily could be a war brewing, or a new species covertly attacking, or someone exploiting bits of dead reapers to create their own little indoctrinated empire on the fringes of human space. I would rather have that than another doomsday plot. Something serious and something evil and/or quite powerful but not to the extent of reapers. 

 

Is it really 'doomsday', if, for example, its REALLYYYY gradual?

 

Heck, hypothetically, what if we time jumped a few times in the narrative?

 

But I do agree that another outright "ITS THE END OF THE GALAXY! WE ALL GONNA DIE." story isn't compelling sounding. At least not for the next game.

[Vortex13]

Or simply off the network altogether. I envision that this will probably be the direction they will go (Drone vehemently disagrees. We'll see).

I imagine the exploration aspect will focus on exploring a new region of the relay network (most likely) which has been entirely cut off from the rest of the network. Likely deliberately, to slow the Reapers advance. The diversity of familiar species and interactions with them will be focused on the central hub - the Ark - a large, Presidium-esque mobile space station. Other hubs would probably be the homeworlds of new alien species.

Eventually, a threat is stumbled across. Here's an example - throughout the Milky Way, "deep anomalies" are present on a number of gas giants. One stated hypothesis in a planet description is that they are "tombs" of an ancient race. The ones on Ploba retract into the lower atmosphere and disappear when approached. WHAT IF they are not "tombs", but cryogenic stasis ships (if organic) or simply ships (if synthetic) of an ancient race that successfully found a way to hide from and evade the Reapers. And they have been waiting...until they were finally defeated. Bioware referred to one of the concept art images of a massive synthetic-esque structure as a "tomb". Just saying.

To recap - explorer protaganist bravely goes where no one has gone before, encounters and awakens ancient alien threat now that reapers are defeated. Threat must be stopped to prevent it from spreading to the rest of the Milky Way at large since the story of ME4 takes place in an isolated region of space. Hijinks and shenanigans ensue. Protagonist saves the day. Hoorah.

In this fashion, the threat is important to the galaxy at large, but it doesn't have to top the Reapers. It doesn't have to be more powerful than the Reapers, but merely present a fear of succumbing to new alien overlords because the galaxy is weakened in a post-war state. It would therefore still present a sense of urgency without needing an invincible enemy. Make them merely an enemy. Not invincible, but superior by circumstance alone.

I imagine some semblance of that is the direction they will take. It is simply FAR too convenient and predictable based on what they have said so far for it to not happen.

That's an interesting theory; I have also been curious about the 'deep anomalies', but there is still a problem. This can only work in a post Destroy galaxy.


If the new threat is not one that outstrips the Repers, then what's to stop them from being completly anniliated once they advance on the galaxy at large in two out of the three endings?

[katamuro]

Is it really 'doomsday', if, for example, its REALLYYYY gradual?

 

Heck, hypothetically, what if we time jumped a few times in the narrative?

 

But I do agree that another outright "ITS THE END OF THE GALAXY! WE ALL GONNA DIE." story isn't compelling sounding. At least not for the next game.

 

the thing with the jumping in time is that with enough time everyone is going to die. Even stars and black holes would eventually die.

[SwobyJ]

the thing with the jumping in time is that with enough time everyone is going to die. Even stars and black holes would eventually die.

 

Maybe that can be a theme then.

[katamuro]

Maybe that can be a theme then.

 

Please no, I have recently read Stephen Baxter's book time, dealing with the eventual end of the universe and it was bad. The whole plot felt like it was propped up by matchsticks that were constantly on fire from the plot itself. And you can't have a game like ME that ends with everyone's death no matter what you do. What would be the point of playing it? it would be like saying "Here, go build a wall but when you are done we are going to demolish it right before your eyes". 

[SwobyJ]

Please no, I have recently read Stephen Baxter's book time, dealing with the eventual end of the universe and it was bad. The whole plot felt like it was propped up by matchsticks that were constantly on fire from the plot itself. And you can't have a game like ME that ends with everyone's death no matter what you do. What would be the point of playing it? it would be like saying "Here, go build a wall but when you are done we are going to demolish it right before your eyes". 

 

Huh? I didn't mean accepting that death.

[katamuro]

Huh? I didn't mean accepting that death.

 

But that is the thing, you can't hide from the cosmic forces of entropy. It will end in either of two ways, it will all cool down to around absolute zero and at that temperature there is simply not enough energy to do anything, so absolute frozen death or the universe will contract until it starts a new big bang creating the ultimate exploding death. 

 

Unless of course you mean jumping in timeline on relatively short jumps. but that kind of thing is quite hard to write and would be even harder to make in a game without ending up gimmicky and artificial in the whole setup. Plus considering they want to yet again appeal to people who never played any games like that they probably wont go for some idea that takes a bit of intelligence to work out.

 

and complicated ideas are not always smart, complicated ideas especially when its written and designed by more than one person usually dont end up that good. 

[Han Shot First]

Or simply off the network altogether. I envision that this will probably be the direction they will go (Drone vehemently disagrees. We'll see).

I imagine the exploration aspect will focus on exploring a new region of the relay network (most likely) which has been entirely cut off from the rest of the network. Likely deliberately, to slow the Reapers advance. The diversity of familiar species and interactions with them will be focused on the central hub - the Ark - a large, Presidium-esque mobile space station. Other hubs would probably be the homeworlds of new alien species.

Eventually, a threat is stumbled across. Here's an example - throughout the Milky Way, "deep anomalies" are present on a number of gas giants. One stated hypothesis in a planet description is that they are "tombs" of an ancient race. The ones on Ploba retract into the lower atmosphere and disappear when approached. WHAT IF they are not "tombs", but cryogenic stasis ships (if organic) or simply ships (if synthetic) of an ancient race that successfully found a way to hide from and evade the Reapers. And they have been waiting...until they were finally defeated. Bioware referred to one of the concept art images of a massive synthetic-esque structure as a "tomb". Just saying.

To recap - explorer protaganist bravely goes where no one has gone before, encounters and awakens ancient alien threat now that reapers are defeated. Threat must be stopped to prevent it from spreading to the rest of the Milky Way at large since the story of ME4 takes place in an isolated region of space. Hijinks and shenanigans ensue. Protagonist saves the day. Hoorah.

In this fashion, the threat is important to the galaxy at large, but it doesn't have to top the Reapers. It doesn't have to be more powerful than the Reapers, but merely present a fear of succumbing to new alien overlords because the galaxy is weakened in a post-war state. It would therefore still present a sense of urgency without needing an invincible enemy. Make them merely an enemy. Not invincible, but superior by circumstance alone.

I imagine some semblance of that is the direction they will take. It is simply FAR too convenient and predictable based on what they have said so far for it to not happen.

 

I'd like but I'm out of them. 

 

That sounds like a game I'd play. Interesting concept.