64 réponses à ce sujet

[Beerfish]

The power of love, not the love of power.

[ruggly]

Despair?

 

[SwobyJ]

Western culture does seem to trend along these lines, OP, yes.

 

Nothing literally like that though, at least not at this point.

 

'Money is God' - More like people believe in the power of money (and the power from money) in such a relatively absolutist way that it looks akin to how the religious worship their gods. That is, in a way that doesn't allow for dispute to how things/it works.

 

'Despair is Hope' - More like that one needs to struggle and perhaps even live in pain and despair in order to have the hope in their lives to succeed afterward. The 'pay your dues' mindset. That true hope doesn't exist if it isn't in contrast to the hopelessness. Similarly, on a somewhat related note, that true goodness doesn't exist if it can't contrast to the evils around. I've seen that the West (however you wish you define it, but I'm orienting it around USA foremost, as long as it is the primary power) has much of a culture that even allows great suffering to exist, as long as it is kept at a degree of distance from the self, the 'successful' one. You could call this 'human nature', but it does seem that there is a particular allowance of this sort of thing in USA. A willful one.*

 

I'm not really promoting or loving other cultures more than the 'West' though. I've been at least worldly enough to see both great and terrible aspects of many regions of the world. (Though I'm also not a cultural relativist at heart, and I do view western culture as overall better in this current age, even if not necessarily the best as time goes on.)

 

 

 

 

*Though to compare, more Eastern cultures can be much worse or better in this. Sometimes they may more collectively make things better for everyone. Or sometimes they just settle even more into an accepted way of seeing things, even if it means mass poverty. Caste or at least castelike thinking is much more prevalent, whereas the current West's belief in individual power and freedom can often be a boon to society; the belief, logical at the time of it or not, that anyone can succeed if they try hard enough may be an illusion when taken to its further extents, but it at least perpetuates more constant and expected change. This is something that other cultures are just starting to learn to grapple with, as they may be more used to the combination of great cultural stability + sudden radical change. The 'low level boiling' that happens in USA can be seen as either a great weakness or a great strength. Personally, I'm glad to be a Canadian, where the more violence (not even necessarily physically violent) of things is more tempered, but others may strike great success in it. I know my boyfriend wanted to move to USA for a time for better business prospects - that is, more likely to reach personal success and be taxed less, not a better atmosphere to grow a successful and long lasting business in itself.

 

And overall, USA can still be seen as more orderly and progressive than many parts of the world, which simultaneously incenses many American conservatives (who don't want that particular social or economic progress), while also assuaging the American conscience (often of the American liberals, who are discontented with their nation but also still want to love and be comfortable with being a citizen of it).

 

The whole "Well, things here often suck, but they're overall much better than other places, and you're given more room to be super rich, so this is how it goes, and if you don't like it, leave!" deal. It had created a very united culture for a while, but it is being challenged to greater and greater extents every year now. Guns, God, and Glory doesn't sound so great when you're not a gun lover, and you're an atheist, and you believe more in international cooperation than national exceptionalism. And 'suffering to succeed' doesn't look so great when the data appears to spell out that there's enough resources and room to cover the basics (and then some) of every citizen, if it was actually allocated properly (something to be skeptical about, I admit) and not hoarded or put into investments that most people will not see any direct results of. Or just chucked and left in a growing landfill. Consumerism is big on that part.

 

 

I think the West (that is, USA and associated NA and EU and some other nations) remains more powerful and correct in its philosophies than the rest of the world, but I also think that its supremacy is being eroded by the year (or at least decade) and there is more and more challenging ideas coming its way that it may not be equipped to easily handle, while other regions of the world may finally be more willingly testing themselves on new ideas (often including ideas that made the West successful).

OP, I dunno if you're a troll or not, or whatever, but I think some of the challenging ideas are:

1)Does there need to be money (or specifically, the capitalistic mindset of the last couple/few centuries) involved for comfort and happiness and progression and even success to occur?

2)Does one need to suffer in life in order to have the stuff to succeed, and for their surroundings (business, society, etc, whatever) to succeed?

3)How much can one not suffer (aka be privileged, socially or economically.. though I've seen too many focus on the social part for my liking IMO) in order to be determined to have to give back the resources to society that allowed them to not suffer? (aka taxation, but also other economic and social topics)

4)How much should we accept things that hurt us? (this is something that has less to do with West/East divide, and more to do with possible technological growth at a more rapid pace than our systems, including capitalism, may adjust to or even cope with)

 

These challenging ideas used to be more easy to shut out, shut down, and rally against, in the West and especially USA. Now, one may have to make the more individual stance (instead of de facto expected stance) on how they'll deal with it. May. Many still won't.

[Star Reborn]

Western culture does seem to trend along these lines, OP, yes.

 

Nothing literally like that though, at least not at this point.

 

'Money is God' - More like people believe in the power of money (and the power from money) in such a relatively absolutist way that it looks akin to how the religious worship their gods. That is, in a way that doesn't allow for dispute to how things/it works.

 

'Despair is Hope' - More like that one needs to struggle and perhaps even live in pain and despair in order to have the hope in their lives to succeed afterward. The 'pay your dues' mindset. That true hope doesn't exist if it isn't in contrast to the hopelessness. Similarly, on a somewhat related note, that true goodness doesn't exist if it can't contrast to the evils around. I've seen that the West (however you wish you define it, but I'm orienting it around USA foremost, as long as it is the primary power) has much of a culture that even allows great suffering to exist, as long as it is kept at a degree of distance from the self, the 'successful' one. You could call this 'human nature', but it does seem that there is a particular allowance of this sort of thing in USA. A willful one.*

 

I'm not really promoting or loving other cultures more than the 'West' though. I've been at least worldly enough to see both great and terrible aspects of many regions of the world. (Though I'm also not a cultural relativist at heart, and I do view western culture as overall better in this current age, even if not necessarily the best as time goes on.)

 

 

 

 

*Though to compare, more Eastern cultures can be much worse or better in this. Sometimes they may more collectively make things better for everyone. Or sometimes they just settle even more into an accepted way of seeing things, even if it means mass poverty. Caste or at least castelike thinking is much more prevalent, whereas the current West's belief in individual power and freedom can often be a boon to society; the belief, logical at the time of it or not, that anyone can succeed if they try hard enough may be an illusion when taken to its further extents, but it at least perpetuates more constant and expected change. This is something that other cultures are just starting to learn to grapple with, as they may be more used to the combination of great cultural stability + sudden radical change. The 'low level boiling' that happens in USA can be seen as either a great weakness or a great strength. Personally, I'm glad to be a Canadian, where the more violence (not even necessarily physically violent) of things is more tempered, but others may strike great success in it. I know my boyfriend wanted to move to USA for a time for better business prospects - that is, more likely to reach personal success and be taxed less, not a better atmosphere to grow a successful and long lasting business in itself.

 

And overall, USA can still be seen as more orderly and progressive than many parts of the world, which simultaneously incenses many American conservatives (who don't want that particular social or economic progress), while also assuaging the American conscience (often of the American liberals, who are discontented with their nation but also still want to love and be comfortable with being a citizen of it).

 

The whole "Well, things here often suck, but they're overall much better than other places, and you're given more room to be super rich, so this is how it goes, and if you don't like it, leave!" deal. It had created a very united culture for a while, but it is being challenged to greater and greater extents every year now. Guns, God, and Glory doesn't sound so great when you're not a gun lover, and you're an atheist, and you believe more in international cooperation than national exceptionalism. And 'suffering to succeed' doesn't look so great when the data appears to spell out that there's enough resources and room to cover the basics (and then some) of every citizen, if it was actually allocated properly (something to be skeptical about, I admit) and not hoarded or put into investments that most people will not see any direct results of. Or just chucked and left in a growing landfill. Consumerism is big on that part.

 

 

I think the West (that is, USA and associated NA and EU and some other nations) remains more powerful and correct in its philosophies than the rest of the world, but I also think that its supremacy is being eroded by the year (or at least decade) and there is more and more challenging ideas coming its way that it may not be equipped to easily handle, while other regions of the world may finally be more willingly testing themselves on new ideas (often including ideas that made the West successful).

OP, I dunno if you're a troll or not, or whatever, but I think some of the challenging ideas are:

1)Does there need to be money (or specifically, the capitalistic mindset of the last couple/few centuries) involved for comfort and happiness and progression and even success to occur?

2)Does one need to suffer in life in order to have the stuff to succeed, and for their surroundings (business, society, etc, whatever) to succeed?

3)How much can one not suffer (aka be privileged, socially or economically.. though I've seen too many focus on the social part for my liking IMO) in order to be determined to have to give back the resources to society that allowed them to not suffer? (aka taxation, but also other economic and social topics)

4)How much should we accept things that hurt us? (this is something that has less to do with West/East divide, and more to do with possible technological growth at a more rapid pace than our systems, including capitalism, may adjust to or even cope with)

 

These challenging ideas used to be more easy to shut out, shut down, and rally against, in the West and especially USA. Now, one may have to make the more individual stance (instead of de facto expected stance) on how they'll deal with it. May. Many still won't.

What makes a country beautiful, or worth living, is the people, not the buildings. You don't communicate with buildings. I don't think America itself is a normal country, because of it being a colony, and slave built, and is overall based around that. That's what I think.

[SwobyJ]

What makes a country beautiful, or worth living, is the people, not the buildings. You don't communicate with buildings. I don't think America itself is a normal country, because of it being a colony, and slave built, and is overall based around that. That's what I think.

 

Yeah, you seem more like a troll with this post.

[Star Reborn]

I don't mean to be mean. I'm sorry if I offend anyone. #peopleshouldlive #nodrugs

[SwobyJ]

At this point capitalism in the US is a complete sham, materialism runs runs rampant and in many ways US society is engineered to create wage slaves and to force people into debit. It's really not that hard to see.  The bank bailouts, big business tax cuts, stagnant wages, the ever growing cost of higher education among other things makes this painfully clear. But, far to many people are willing accept facts and less are willing to do anything about it. Honestly the entire thing frustrates me to no end.  I look at my younger brother and honestly wonder if he will ever retire. I look at his daughter and know that the chances of her ever retiring a slim to none. There is a growing number of people who are trying to turn things around, but I can't help feeling that the US is a sinking ship at this point.   

 

I tend to think that any economic model is a sham - it only exposes itself as such once more and more flaws become apparent.

 

Let us not fool ourselves - capitalism has been quite fine with huge abuses of humanity, only stopped either by external concepts (often the dreaded 'socialism'), or at least finally by 'market forces' (which themselves may take forever in shaping up to care about the injustices, at least as long as the majority of economic participants don't care about the injustice, and business leaders don't care to make a change).

 

But again, I doubt any economic model, or any model at all for anything, will last forever. I just want improvements. It is one of the best things that came out of modern thinking, imo. I want things to improve to noticable  and not neglectable extents (*clap clap* omg Walmart u so awesome for paying slightly above min wage *clap clap*). If this means a better capitalism, ok, do it. If it means leaving capitalism behind at some point, ok, do it. How we get there, and how quickly, matters a lot, but we better be heading somewhere good on this ride.

 

 

I want to be clear that I'm not so progressive that any change that 'looks good' should be embraced or pursued. Ultimately, I'm a moderate. But I highly doubt that our way of life for anything is going to be seen as the right way of living, given enough time and changes. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

[bEVEsthda]

<sneers> - Children!

 

You can't look for simplifications like that. Money does not play any special role in Western culture, compared to others. It's the exactly same everywhere. Some individuals place immense value on excessive wealth. It's the same in Mongolia, Peru, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Russia, India, Pakistan,..

...I can't believe anyone would/can be blind to this?

 

If anything, excessive wealth garners you less esteem and power in the West, than anywhere else in the world. So no. I wouldn't say money is God in western society. On the contrary, I'd say that in most ways it's less so than in the rest of the world.

 

The one thing that is the separating, persistent and overriding attribute of Western culture, is reason and freedom of thought.

That has made the West successful and thus wealthy. Because of that wealth, and the competition and cost of living in the resulting big, complex and rapidly changing economy, no one can ignore money. Despite the vast wealth, Western citizens are involved in a sort of corresponding struggle, every day, to the poor people of the world. The direct challenge is maybe not to get something to eat. But if you lose your place in the wheel, you quickly won't be able to pay your bills and mortgage, and you'll end up a homeless beggar rather promptly.

 

So most people can't afford to work for free. That is why the profitability of your business or employer is all important.

[bEVEsthda]

I tend to think that any economic model is a sham - it only exposes itself as such once more and more flaws become apparent.

 

Let us not fool ourselves - capitalism has been quite fine with huge abuses of humanity, only stopped either by external concepts (often the dreaded 'socialism'), or at least finally by 'market forces' (which themselves may take forever in shaping up to care about the injustices, at least as long as the majority of economic participants don't care about the injustice, and business leaders don't care to make a change).

 

But again, I doubt any economic model, or any model at all for anything, will last forever. I just want improvements. It is one of the best things that came out of modern thinking, imo. I want things to improve to noticable  and not neglectable extents (*clap clap* omg Walmart u so awesome for paying slightly above min wage *clap clap*). If this means a better capitalism, ok, do it. If it means leaving capitalism behind at some point, ok, do it. How we get there, and how quickly, matters a lot, but we better be heading somewhere good on this ride.

 

 

I want to be clear that I'm not so progressive that any change that 'looks good' should be embraced or pursued. Ultimately, I'm a moderate. But I highly doubt that our way of life for anything is going to be seen as the right way of living, given enough time and changes. And I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

I think people are confusing issues.

The important thing is the level playing field.

This should be provided and protected by laws. It's not "capitalism" that is the cause of any perceived abuse. It's the laws that need to be improved. "Capitalism" will only adapt itself to the environment that legislation provides.

 

Unfortunately, it's a rightwing religion in US that capitalism should be as un-regulated as possible. Nothing could be more false. Which is a fact we've been able to observe in recent years. Deregulation mostly serves those who are in the business of redistributing the fruits of other's labor and enterprise into their own pockets, rather than contributing. Unfortunately, these people seem to dominate certain radio shows and news channels with their hate mongering, these days. They get a lot of stupid followers, because it's so easy to hate.

[SwobyJ]

<sneers> - Children!

 

You can't look for simplifications like that. Money does not play any special role in Western culture, compared to others. It's the exactly same everywhere. Some individuals place immense value on excessive wealth. It's the same in Mongolia, Peru, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Russia, India, Pakistan,..

...I can't believe anyone would/can be blind to this?

 

If anything, excessive wealth garners you less esteem and power in the West, than anywhere else in the world. So no. I wouldn't say money is God in western society. On the contrary, I'd say that in most ways it's less so than in the rest of the world.

 

The one thing that is the separating, persistent and overriding attribute of Western culture, is reason and freedom of thought.

That has made the West successful and thus wealthy. Because of that wealth, and the competition and cost of living in the resulting big, complex and rapidly changing economy, no one can ignore money. Despite the vast wealth, Western citizens are involved in a sort of corresponding struggle, every day, to the poor people of the world. The direct challenge is maybe not to get something to eat. But if you lose your place in the wheel, you quickly won't be able to pay your bills and mortgage, and you'll end up a homeless beggar rather promptly.

 

So most people can't afford to work for free. That is why the profitability of your business or employer is all important.

 

I think you're talking more about functionality, not culture.

 

Money, specifically MONEY. Not caste, not class, not social circle, not religion, not connections, not intelligence, not royalty, etc etc etc. MONEY. And in that, I think the West dominates for importance. Is this an importance going downward, culturally? I think so. But it still dominates the conversation.

 

But we see in say, places like China, the New Rich is going along in a very familiar way. In a lot of the world, I think Money will be 'God', just as something else gains in importance in the West (dunno what that is, but I lol at the possibility of it being Social Justice haha).

[bEVEsthda]

I think you're talking more about functionality, not culture.

 

Money, specifically MONEY. Not caste, not class, not social circle, not religion, not connections, not intelligence, not royalty, etc etc etc. MONEY. And in that, I think the West dominates for importance. Is this an importance going downward, culturally? I think so. But it still dominates the conversation.

 

 

I'd agree with most of that.

...and I would claim it's a good thing.

[SwobyJ]

I think people are confusing issues.

The important thing is the level playing field.

This should be provided and protected by laws. It's not "capitalism" that is the cause of any perceived abuse. It's the laws that need to be improved. "Capitalism" will only adapt itself to the environment that legislation provides.

 

Unfortunately, it's a rightwing religion in US that capitalism should be as un-regulated as possible. Nothing could be more false. Which is a fact we've been able to observe in recent years. Deregulation mostly serves those who are in the business of redistributing the fruits of other's labor and enterprise into their own pockets, rather than contributing. Unfortunately, these people seem to dominate certain radio shows and news channels with their hate mongering, these days. They get a lot of stupid followers, because it's so easy to hate.

 

Capitalism isn't there to provide a level playing field, is what I'm meaning. I don't have any big issue with capitalism. I just don't believe in - well you already said it - the delusion that deregulation intrinsically assists capitalism.

 

I do think that capitalism may eventually become useless to us, but that would/may be in the hypothetical land of technological post-scarcity, or whatever. I'm not someone who thinks capitalism is just so absolutely wrong and evil that it MUST be dismantled NOW. If there's any strong socialist or communist bones in my body, they're at least quite aware that such rapid change without a clear and good plan... is just ridiculous to pursue.

 

I think I just bristle against those who seem to believe that the transfer of capital itself solves anything. No - it enables great wonders and great shames to humanity, but the solutions still lie with people. But I think it'd only ever be an outright primitive evil in a theoretical future world where everyone is able to make (at least pretty much) anything they want for themselves, and the actual need for transfer of capital is so little that State/Public or Corporate/Private enforcement of Capitalism (as a national or international paradigm, I mean) becomes outright stupid ("BUY THIS NOW! FOR PROFIT/COUNTRY!" "But I already make everything at hom..." "NO. BUY. SELL. WORK. WORK. WORK."). And I suppose I get the feeling that this theoretical future is possible enough in the next decades (or at least centuries) that I'm already prepping myself for it, ha.

But for now? No, I don't consider money bad, or capitalism bad, or regulation bad, or whatever. To me, systems are systems, and I need more information and context before approving or disapproving them in each situation. (I don't think anything could get me to approve of absolute totalitarianism except a truly apocalyptic situation, but promotion of capitalism or bartering? Or socialism or conservatism? Or democracy or dictatorship? Sure, whatever.)

[bEVEsthda]

Capitalism isn't there to provide a level playing field, is what I'm meaning. I don't have any big issue with capitalism. I just don't believe in - well you already said it - the delusion that deregulation intrinsically assists capitalism.

 

Yes. Capitalism certainly doesn't provide a level playing field. But capitalism requires a level playing field to function well.

Unfortunately, in recent decades a lot of people have lost understanding of this.

I do blame the propaganda from certain sectors.

[PresidentVorchaMasterBaits]

I want to say something but I don't know what Except..

 

'liked' because Twin Peaks!

[PresidentVorchaMasterBaits]

Thanks! I loved Twin Peaks, good show.

when i got bored with Major Burns, i was thinking of changing my avi to Bob and username BOBBOBBOBlol in reference to my xbox gt. i chose Jane Doe instead but i'll get bored with that in a couple of months.

[PresidentVorchaMasterBaits]

i dunno........it's a secret.