236 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeCode]

No, because to me for the most part it played out as a B movie, over the top and in your face. Don't get me wrong, there were parts that I liked but they didn't had much to do with Hawke.

 

I'm generally very sensitive to drama and there are movies and books that I have found too tragic to finish, yet I could stab Anders over and over again and feel nothing, because I knew I was set up to do exactly that and shoehorned to care about it too. I refused to care because of how it was done. To me it's never about what but it's always about how. DA2 has a concept of good tragedy down, but not the execution.

I've always said that it's the execution where DA lacks in it's storytelling. It's like they take mature themes and then condense them into an episode of scooby doo so the whole family can enjoy it. Cartoony and humorous, complete with references to pop culture.

[AlanC9]

..yet I could stab Anders over and over again and feel nothing, because I knew I was set up to do exactly that .

You were? I don't remember having to do that. Anyway, could you be more specific about how you'd improve the execution?

[AlanC9]

I've always said that it's the execution where DA lacks in it's storytelling. It's like they take mature themes and then condense them into an episode of scooby doo so the whole family can enjoy it. Cartoony and humorous, complete with references to pop culture.

Hmm... you're making it sound like Buffy.

[Majestic Jazz]

I honestly see I claims like that and can only think people who make such claims must have never played old school RPGs where side quests and fetch quests were both common often having nothing do with the main plot and that in many older games you could literally sink dozens of hours and not advance the main plot.

And in old school games many did not have a savegame feature.

Point is, this is 2015 not 1995.

[Ashagar]

Many games then and earlier did have save functions though, though I agree things have changed, I no longer have to use 8 inch floppies for one thing and things have come a long way from the Commodore 64. Saints above, just saying that made me feel old.

[CronoDragoon]

Point is, this is 2015 not 1995.

 

If that's the point, then I have no idea what the MMO comparison is about. Just say you don't like fetch quests.

 

The aspects of Dragon Age that are MMO-y have always been that way, such as ability cooldowns and threat.

 

 

Hmm... you're making it sound like Buffy.

 

I'd say that's a compliment. Buffy is held in pretty high esteem.

[Phoe77]

I guess it's hard to call Hawke anything but a failure given the way the events in the game played out, but I am always reluctant to apply that label to him.  I don't think things would have gone much differently even if Hawke were the most competent and skilled person in the Free Marches.  To me, being a failure has more to do with being inept and botching things that could have been handled well than having things reach their inevitable conclusion despite your best efforts.  In other words, I think there's a difference between not succeeding at something and being a failure.  Or maybe I'm just making excuses for Hawke because I like him so much.  

 

In any event, I never felt like the more serious or mature aspects of DA2 were overly campy.  I admit that many of the characters seemed to respond to stressful or difficult situations with levity, but that never took much away from the gravity of a scene for me.  It was just how the characters coped.  I do like that the cast of Inquisition seemed more likely to respond to harrowing events less lightly than previous companions.  Haven, to me, felt like a legitimately tragic setback even if the Inquisitor was able to bounce back somewhat quickly.  

 

I'll be playing through the game again soon though, so I wonder if my opinion will change much after that.

[ThreeF]

You were? I don't remember having to do that. Anyway, coukd you be more specific about how you'd improve the execution?

ok "my Hawke", if it makes you happier.  "I" is much shorter and of the same meaning.

 

Hmm..how to make it better (to me)? Making it more nuanced and use less cheesy dialogues would be a start, I think. Treat your audience as the adults that they are. The mature label sadly only exits for gore, profanity and nudity. Or maybe it's because people want to turn their brain off and just go kill stuff for fun? That's really fine, perhaps I'm the weirdo here. Ideally, I want to be able to treat  a game story plot in the same way I would treat a novel, perhaps it is impossible.

 

I wanted for the game to make me care about Andres without making it so obvious from the beginning that I should romance him for max effect in tragedy, it spoiled the surprise and made me a cynic, after that butchered romance attempt I was set to not care. I wanted for the game to make me care about Fenris struggles without him going on and on with his brooding, it made him flat in my eyes, to show that he used to be a slave instead of him telling me that, to show me something else about him too, let me explore the character, be surprised, peel the layers. Anders sort of had an excuse to be flat  and single-minded, the others? Most of the characters in DA2 are left unexplored. The most interesting conversation I had in DA2 was with Arishok, for all the pseudo-philosophy that it was. I wanted him as my companion, he was interesting and tragically deluded, I couldn't get enough of him and I wanted to learn more. Flemeth for all her short appearances always manages to be interesting and complex.

 

Hawke's one dimensional personality was no help either, sure the sarcasm was witty, but push that button one time too often and I really can't take anything that happens around me seriously, I've joined the "f it" wagon.  I can sit now and analyze about how it made Hawke a broken character and tragic, but while playing the story I felt, like you yourself have said, that I was watching an episode of Buffy. Maybe other people like it, I'd like something different. The other personalities were just as flat, but less witty. The  atmosphere in the mother ark was taken straight from a B Movie horror set and there was the obligatory "drum roll" scene of "look! Hawke is suffering". I'd like less of that.

 

I'm not even going to talk about act 3 because, seriously, is there anyone who thinks it was good?

[Elhanan]

* Raises hand* I enjoyed Act 3 a lot, with the exception of Orsino undergoing a sudden change from somewhere I missed.

[Phoe77]

I've only ever romanced Anders twice and I don't feel like I miss out on tragedy when we get to the end of the game.  There is obviously an additional component to Hawke's sadness in such a situation, but it still seems powerful either way.  I also think that the companions at least show flashes of depth and complexity at various points in the game, but they're easy to miss and I could perhaps even be fooling myself because I like to consider the characters in great detail.  In any event, I wish that those displays of depth were more consistent.  

 

As much as I like the dominant personality thing, I do think that it kind of turns Hawke into a sort of caricature.  It always feels like kind of a gamble to deviate from your main personality because of how energetic the lines could be at some points.  

 

I liked all the stuff with Leandra in Act 2.  The act was grisly, the perpetrator was sick and deluded, and Hawke's reaction was visceral and emotional without really seeming to overdramatic.  Thinking back, the scenes in which you talk to various characters about your family troubles always seemed like some of the better ones to me.

 

These types of conversations are weird to me because I always just say "I feel like ______" and can't provide much more than that because of how subjective much of it is.  

[ThreeF]

* Raises hand* I enjoyed Act 3 a lot, with the exception of Orsino undergoing a sudden change from somewhere I missed.

Varric will get pissy if you ask him about it and that says a lot. Also Act 3 has the mother of all fetch quest, also known as "go fetch me those swords". To me after the Arishok was gone act 3 turned into one big "wtf? why did they bothered with this".

 

 

As much as I like the dominant personality thing, I do think that it kind of turns Hawke into a sort of caricature.  It always feels like kind of a gamble to deviate from your main personality because of how energetic the lines could be at some points.  

 

I liked all the stuff with Leandra in Act 2.  The act was grisly, the perpetrator was sick and deluded, and Hawke's reaction was visceral and emotional without really seeming to overdramatic.  Thinking back, the scenes in which you talk to various characters about your family troubles always seemed like some of the better ones to me.

 

These types of conversations are weird to me because I always just say "I feel like ______" and can't provide much more than that because of how subjective much of it is.  

And that's fine, it's all subjective.

 

I really would like more than flashes in character development, I wish companions were treated less as side content and more as part of the story. And dominant personality is fine in theory, but it should have range to feel more fleshed out, Hawke's didn't had it.

[Phoe77]

The problem with the dominant personality was that it was so prevalent and, I don't know, dramatic?, that it often made me reluctant to choose options outside of the personality.  My Hawke may be sarcastic to a fault, but there are still some instances where he would rein it in for someone else's benefit or be pissed off enough to go with a more aggressive dialogue option.  Doing that in the game though just makes your Hawke sound like he's got multiple personalities (hah) more often than not.   That's why I'm actually a fan of the less boisterous delivery we got in Inquisition.   

 

I agree about the character development.   I like the times we see it in DA2, but they are few and far between.  I'm fortunate enough to find their surface personalities rather enjoyable, but things would have been much better if they were treated with more complexity throughout the entirety of the game.  I think Inquisition also does a bit better at this.  Goofy characters have moments of seriousness and doubt and fear.  More buttoned-down characters have chances to make jokes and relax a bit.  I hope that it continues to be refined in future games.

[CronoDragoon]

I really would like more than flashes in character development, I wish companions were treated less as side content and more as part of the story. 

 

I have to say that romancing Isabela gives you both: meaningful character development and a nice tie-in with the Qunari plot. It's by far the best DA2 romance, in my humble opinion, for those reasons.

[ThreeF]

I have to say that romancing Isabela gives you both: meaningful character development and a nice tie-in with the Qunari plot.

Wouldn't know this because I never romanced her and that's exactly another problem right there. I'm fine with content being cut if you don't romance someone, it's a logical consequence, you should be able to get to know the character better the closer your interaction  become,  but romance should not be the only thing that fleshes out a character.

[NextGenCowboy]

It's not the only thing that expands on her character. Listen to her banter with Aveline as the game goes from chapter to chapter, or the scenes in Act 3, as the game's winding down. Assuming you always bring 3 people with you, and assuming it's not always the same 3 people, you're going to see characters interact with each other, just as much as Hawke. That's what makes it interesting, these people have their own lives, their own goals.

 

Fenris is broody, and he's cautious, and just sitting in the mansion most of the time, because that's how he is. He knows nothing else at all, and he has to be constantly looking over his shoulder. He can come to enjoy the city, and even has a conversation about priot to his final personal quest, which ends up changing a lot about his character anyway.

 

If you want to see growth, take Merril down the Rivalry path.

[ThreeF]

It's not the only thing that expands on her character. Listen to her banter with Aveline as the game goes from chapter to chapter, or the scenes in Act 3, as the game's winding down. Assuming you always bring 3 people with you, and assuming it's not always the same 3 people, you're going to see characters interact with each other, just as much as Hawke. That's what makes it interesting, these people have their own lives, their own goals.

 

Fenris is broody, and he's cautious, and just sitting in the mansion most of the time, because that's how he is. He knows nothing else at all, and he has to be constantly looking over his shoulder. He can come to enjoy the city, and even has a conversation about priot to his final personal quest, which ends up changing a lot about his character anyway.

True. It's a nice addition, that got even better in DAI and adds a lot of colour, but has more to do with observation by chance than interaction and exploration.

 

The thing with Merill goes in the same camp as Isabela's romance. I'd like to see "growth" without conditions, or rather different "growth" with different conditions if the conditions are dramatic enough to show a different side of personality. (putting quotes because it's not quite the correct term)

[CronoDragoon]

Wouldn't know this because I never romanced her and that's exactly another problem right there. I'm fine with content being cut if you don't romance someone, it's a logical consequence, you should be able to get to know the character better the closer your interaction  become,  but romance should not be the only thing that fleshes out a character.

 

Most of her character development is outside of the romance. The romance just takes some of that and transforms it into something else. Most of the other characters are similar, and for some of the characters the rivalry path provides the best angle on the dialogue. Merrill has been mentioned, but Aveline's rivalry path is truly something special.

 

I might suggest that the primary issue you had with DA2's characters is that you chose the one character to romance who doesn't really develop as the game progresses. Or he develops, but in a way that makes him inherently more unlikable.

 

Either way, I don't agree that the tragedy with Anders was telegraphed. I was genuinely shocked at what happened.

[ThreeF]

 

 

I might suggest that the primary issue you had with DA2's characters is that you chose a crappy character to romance.

I didn't romanced anyone because I found them all uninteresting and was dead set to not romance Anders out of principle anyways. Teased Sebastian some, but was  not much into it other than that. Not equally uninteresting of course,  Isabela actually was a bit higher than some other characters, she did returned with the book for me, but still not enough to care.

 

You didn't saw the Anders thing coming? After I was stuck  with no way to gently put him down and the way he reacted in the first flirt option I was absolutely sure that I was being set up and that he will do something very dramatic and irreversible, I was miffed.

[Elhanan]

I didn't romanced anyone because I found them all uninteresting and was dead set to not romance Anders out of principle anyways. Teased Sebastian some, but was  not much into it other than that. Not equally uninteresting of course,  Isabela actually was a bit higher than some other characters, she did returned with the book for me, but still not enough to care.

Aveline was my only selection, and remains one of the most effective, realistic depictions seen in games.

[Phoe77]

I figured Anders would do something, but I didn't think it would be as explosive as  it ended up being.  

[Elfyoth]

Wow when you think about it... Red liffe is bigger than lowtown LOL and the winter palace? Than all of Kirkwall ...

[Melca36]

Yes an RPG where enemies materialize from the ceiling is a masterpeice. As for the filler quests. You are just lazy. Face the fact that DA2 as fun as it was got far more rage than Inquisition has received.

 

And I have no doubt when DA4 the same people complaining about Inquisition will find things to complain about in the next game.

 

 

 

 

 

[Elfyoth]

Yes an RPG where enemies materialize from the ceiling is a masterpeice. As for the filler quests. You are just lazy. Face the fact that DA2 as fun as it was got far more rage than Inquisition has received.

 

And I have no doubt when DA4 the same people complaining about Inquisition will find things to complain about in the next game.

 

 

 

 

 

Why I never saw this guards from the ceiling in DA2? Would have made my day... 

[AlanC9]

ok "my Hawke", if it makes you happier.  "I" is much shorter and of the same meaning.

It has the same meaning if all your Hawkes are the same, I suppose. Though I'd have still made the same response since none of my Hawkes felt like they "had" to kill him. Wanting to and having to are very different things.

[Grifter]

You think DAI was the battle of healing potions? Not DAO where every battle is a test of how quickly you can chug the 99 Greater Healing Poultices you carry around with you everywhere?

Ok... Nice one

 

hahahaahaha

 

Sorry