48 réponses à ce sujet

[Vortex13]

The Reapers'/Catalyst's stated goal is to stop the conflict between organics and synthetics. The inevitable conflict arising between the created and the creator is the whole foundation of the Reapers' creation and institution of the cycles, but what about an alien species that doesn't use synthetic or artificial constructs?

 

 

 

Logically, a species that never creates an AI can never come into conflict with their creations. Now, it's likely that other sentient beings would create AI that could come into conflict with this species, but if the Reapers/Catalyst can establish that a purely organic species would never develop the need to create artificial intelligence would such a species still need to be preserved?

 

 

 

This is an extreme example but would the Tyranids of WH40K warrant Reaper intervention?

 

 

 

 

By their own mandate, Reapers are to stop organic/synthetic conflict, but we can clearly see that a species like the Tyranids have no self-created synthetics to conflict with; their entire existence is based around biological organisms and forced evolution to adapt to new challenges.  

 

 

If a species falls outside of the Reaper mandate, would they still harvest it?

[Iakus]

Gee, one would think that cloned or tank-bred life forms would be "synthetic life", wouldn't one? 

[Vortex13]

Gee, one would think that cloned or tank-bred life forms would be "synthetic life", wouldn't one? 

 

 

True, but if these tank-bred clones were created via purely organic means; something the Tyranids are capable of doing; would that still count as being 'synthetic' life?

 

 

After all, a cell that undergoes mitosis is a genetic duplicate or clone of the original parent cell.

[Valmar]

Interesting question. Not really sure. The thorian relies solely on organic means and wasn't harvested. Though they likely didn't know about it at the time.

 

I kinda think they would harvest them, though. Simply because their presence might increase the imminence of synthetic's being created, statistically. The Leviathan's didn't seem to rely on synthetics yet they were part of the problem. One could assume this is because the organic species under Leviathan rule felt pressured to find a means to overcome their overlord and that pushed them to make synthetics. If you have an organic species that you have no chance of defeating with 'natural' means then we develop means to combat it.

 

So yeah, I'm favoring the idea that they would harvest them regardless of them being 'purely organic'.

[JasonShepard]

Okay, I'll bite. Let's drop the tyranids into the MEU during a Reaper harvest. (So they open up a relay and find Tyranids on the other end. Hey, this suddenly sounds like the Rachni...) (An alternative could be Species 8472, by the way.)

 

I think we can assume that the Tyranids are unlikely to ever create synthetic life. Everything they do is biological.

 

However, in order to maintain their mandate, the Reapers have a secondary requirement - they need to be in control of the galaxy. They can't very well Reap/prevent synthetic conflict otherwise. So if the Tyranids were perceived to threaten that control, then the Reapers would be forced to attack.

 

If the Tyranids ignored the Reapers, great. The two would just go about their business, not bothering each other. The Reapers harvest anyone that gets to a certain technological level... except they don't because the Tyranids have probably already eaten them.

 

HOWEVER, if one side provoked the other... (I can see the Reapers harvesting a few 'Nids to find out how they work, or the Tyranids attacking 'just because' - after all, it's not like Tyranids and Necrons get along.) ...Well, we'd find out whether indoctrination worked on a such a huge hive mind. We'd find out what a tyranid husk looked like. We'd find out if Reapers can be digested.

 

And ultimately, we'd get one awesome space battle between a hive fleet and the Reapers. I'm honestly not sure who would win that one...

[Vazgen]

Not sure of the Tyranids, but the Rachni had space travel, no? I always wondered how they managed it. Their civilization was likely purely organic

[JasonShepard]

Not sure of the Tyranids, but the Rachni had space travel, no? I always wondered how they managed it. Their civilization was likely purely organic

 

Pretty sure the ME2 conversation with that Asari mentions them being technological wonders (which is supported by them becoming Crucible engineers). The rachni are kind of a weird case - we never see them use tech, but apparently they're really good at it.

[Vortex13]

Not sure of the Tyranids, but the Rachni had space travel, no? I always wondered how they managed it. Their civilization was likely purely organic

 

 

That's what I thought as well, but there are mentions of Rachni cities and there is no indication that the Rachni had organic spacecraft like the Tyranids.

[Vortex13]

Okay, I'll bite. Let's drop the tyranids into the MEU during a Reaper harvest. (So they open up a relay and find Tyranids on the other end. Hey, this suddenly sounds like the Rachni...) (An alternative could be Species 8472, by the way.)

 

I think we can assume that the Tyranids are unlikely to ever create synthetic life. Everything they do is biological.

 

However, in order to maintain their mandate, the Reapers have a secondary requirement - they need to be in control of the galaxy. They can't very well Reap/prevent synthetic conflict otherwise. So if the Tyranids were perceived to threaten that control, then the Reapers would be forced to attack.

 

If the Tyranids ignored the Reapers, great. The two would just go about their business, not bothering each other. The Reapers harvest anyone that gets to a certain technological level... except they don't because the Tyranids have probably already eaten them.

 

HOWEVER, if one side provoked the other... (I can see the Reapers harvesting a few 'Nids to find out how they work, or the Tyranids attacking 'just because' - after all, it's not like Tyranids and Necrons get along.) ...Well, we'd find out whether indoctrination worked on a such a huge hive mind. We'd find out what a tyranid husk looked like. We'd find out if Reapers can be digested.

 

And ultimately, we'd get one awesome space battle between a hive fleet and the Reapers. I'm honestly not sure who would win that one...

 

 

 

An other thing to consider is how the Tyranids, much like the Reapers, 'preserve' the races that they process. The Tyranids are constantly updating their biological makeup with DNA taken from devoured worlds. In a way they would be storing the old life in Tyranid form.

 

 

 

As far as a battle between Reapers and Tyranids would go there are a few things to consider:

 

 

• Kinetic barriers don't defend against slow moving attacks like scything talons or acidic spore clouds. 

 

• Instantaneous FTL travel means the Reaper can retreat rather easily.

 

• Seeing as how the Reapers are partially organic, does that mean that the Tyranids can gain biomass off of them?

[Valmar]

An other thing to consider is how the Tyranids, much like the Reapers, 'preserve' the races that they process. The Tyranids are constantly updating their biological makeup with DNA taken from devoured worlds. In a way they would be storing the old life in Tyranid form.

 

 

Does that really compare to MEU lore, though? In the MEU your memories, knowledge and experiences (essentially everything that makes you - you) are all biological markers. Its all in the genes and can be saved onto hardware and preserved. The tyranids sound like they 'preserve' your genes in the same sense having offspring 'preserves' your genes. All your knowledge and experience would still be lost forever. Though my expertise lies squarely in the Mass Effect universe and I know nothing about Tyranids so maybe I'm off bases here.

[Vortex13]

Does that really compare to MEU lore, though? In the MEU your memories, knowledge and experiences (essentially everything that makes you - you) are all biological markers. Its all in the genes and can be saved onto hardware and preserved. The tyranids sound like they 'preserve' your genes in the same sense having offspring 'preserves' your genes. All your knowledge and experience would still be lost forever. Though my expertise lies squarely in the Mass Effect universe and I know nothing about Tyranids so maybe I'm off bases here.

 

 

Well the Tyranids are more about assimilating desirable qualities of species into their own in order to meet specific challenges.

 

 

For example, a species with a natural resistance to a specific type of radiation would be 'processed', the Tyranids would then take that resistance and apply to their species if they are unable to overcome said radiation.

 

 

It's not preserving the individual personalities of the harvest species, but the Reapers don't concern themselves with individual members of a species either; all they care about is preserving a species' 'essence'. And wouldn't the identifiable traits of a species be considered said species' 'essence' to an artificial construct anyway?

[SwobyJ]

The Reapers would determine that it would happen eventually, for any reason.

 

They view organics as Creators, and the Creators must Create. Eventually, even if it takes millions or billions of years.

 

 

A purely organic species that isn't spacefaring will be ignored by the Reapers.

 

A purely organic spacefaring species that hasn't made synthetics (not even talking AI here, but even droids) will be destroyed by the Reapers.

 

A purely organic spacefaring species that has made synthetics will certainly be destroyed by the Reapers.

 

A purely organic spacefaring species that has somehow, I dunno, been unable or unwilling to use the Mass Relays (and thus get sucked into the Citadel system of control) and then continues to either expand or evolve into some mega awesome species and gains power that way (so somewhat the Leviathan situation, at least to an extent), will be still harvested by the Reapers because at that point, they're interfering with the Cycle.

 

Basically, the Reapers give organics a chance, to a controlled degree, but will not allow competition.

 

If there was a purely organic spacefaring empire (or the equal to an empire) that attacks the Milky Way from the outside, well then, sure, we have a war!!! WARRRRRR. In our sci fi imaginings, sure, there may very well be an organic species in the Mass Effect UNIVERSE that is stronger than the Reapers. Though I'd still be skeptical, if we are to take Bioware's writings on AI seriously, that any organic species is truly able to be more powerful than AI is (elsewhere in the universe) or may be (at some point). Even the Dead Space Necromorphs could be surpassed by an AI, somewhere, if this was taking place in the Mass Effect world and its rules, it seems.

[KrrKs]

Hmm, If I follow what the Catalyst describes as Reaper mandate:

 

If that species is aggressive, they'll likely try to wipe out other species, which then cannot be 'saved'.

The Reapers would have to annihilate this 'purely organic' species. Err, I mean preserve, of course.

 

Even if that species is not aggressive, chances are that it could get attacked by an AI created by someone else, so the Reapers would also try to 'save' them.

 

Of course, If the Reaper plan is actually about reproduction, as I believe, this species would be attacking needed resources in the first case. They'd be likely a viable resource themselves, too.

The difference is practically 0 in either case.

[Vortex13]

The Reapers would determine that it would happen eventually, for any reason.

 

They view organics as Creators, and the Creators must Create. Eventually, even if it takes millions or billions of years.

 

 

A purely organic species that isn't spacefaring will be ignored by the Reapers.

 

A purely organic spacefaring species that hasn't made synthetics (not even talking AI here, but even droids) will be destroyed by the Reapers.

 

A purely organic spacefaring species that has made synthetics will certainly be destroyed by the Reapers.

 

A purely organic spacefaring species that has somehow, I dunno, been unable or unwilling to use the Mass Relays (and thus get sucked into the Citadel system of control) and then continues to either expand or evolve into some mega awesome species and gains power that way (so somewhat the Leviathan situation, at least to an extent), will be still harvested by the Reapers because at that point, they're interfering with the Cycle.

 

Basically, the Reapers give organics a chance, to a controlled degree, but will not allow competition.

 

If there was a purely organic spacefaring empire (or the equal to an empire) that attacks the Milky Way from the outside, well then, sure, we have a war!!! WARRRRRR. In our sci fi imaginings, sure, there may very well be an organic species in the Mass Effect UNIVERSE that is stronger than the Reapers. Though I'd still be skeptical, if we are to take Bioware's writings on AI seriously, that any organic species is truly able to be more powerful than AI is (elsewhere in the universe) or may be (at some point). Even the Dead Space Necromorphs could be surpassed by an AI, somewhere, if this was taking place in the Mass Effect world and its rules, it seems.

 

 

 

Wouldn't a species that had no need to create synthetic life as well as developed outside of the Reaper established guidelines of using the Mass Relays and the Citadel stand as infallible proof that its mandate and solution did not work?

 

If the docking of the Crucible showed the Catalyst that it's solution wouldn't work because the species of the current cycle had worked together to overcome the Reapers' efforts, than wouldn't an alien species that exists completely outside of the Reapers' definition of the inevitable conflict between the created and the creators prove that their cycles and harvest wouldn't work by said species mere existence?

[Vortex13]

If there was a purely organic spacefaring empire (or the equal to an empire) that attacks the Milky Way from the outside, well then, sure, we have a war!!! WARRRRRR. In our sci fi imaginings, sure, there may very well be an organic species in the Mass Effect UNIVERSE that is stronger than the Reapers. Though I'd still be skeptical, if we are to take Bioware's writings on AI seriously, that any organic species is truly able to be more powerful than AI is (elsewhere in the universe) or may be (at some point). Even the Dead Space Necromorphs could be surpassed by an AI, somewhere, if this was taking place in the Mass Effect world and its rules, it seems.

 

 

I'm not so convinced that an AI is innately more powerful than a purely organic species. 

 

 

Compared to a species like humanity, sure you could make the case that an AI could outstrip us in superiority since we have to rely on technology to offset our inabilities as a species.

 

 

But something like the Tyranids, something that has developed into only using biological means to accomplish (roughly) the same things that other technologically advanced civilizations can do would be on even footing with a synthetic species (IMO). Any organism that can survive the vacuum of space and the harsh extremes in temperature and other hazards like radiation is already ahead of an artificial life form since these things are a natural part of its anatomy whereas a synthetic species has to construct devices that allow for similar protection.

 

Also if this purely organic species is capable of propagating itself similar to the Tyranids, than relying on sheer numbers to win a conflict is not going to favor a synthetic life form seeing as such a species is capable of exponential growth and incredibly short gestation periods. If it came down to direct conflict, the only thing really hindering both sides would be resources.

[SwobyJ]

Wouldn't a species that had no need to create synthetic life as well as developed outside of the Reaper established guidelines of using the Mass Relays and the Citadel stand as infallible proof that its mandate and solution did not work?

 

If the docking of the Crucible showed the Catalyst that it's solution wouldn't work because the species of the current cycle had worked together to overcome the Reapers' efforts, than wouldn't an alien species that exists completely outside of the Reapers' definition of the inevitable conflict between the created and the creators prove that their cycles and harvest wouldn't work by said species mere existence?

 

@the bolded - Doesn't matter. Leviathan had no need to create synthetic life, until it did. The Reaper conclusion about all organics is that they all must try to surpass their own limitations, and that eventually will involve synthetics to assist them in this.

Seeing the 'purely organic' species will just have the Catalyst go "You don't need synthetics... YET."

It is running off a model and has seen the probability go high enough that even this 'purely organic' species will still make synthetics at some point. Even if it doesn't need to not.

By DEFINITION, organics create synthetics, as far as it is concerned.

 

Even the species' mere existence doesn't matter, as organics still make synthetics, and the conflict still happens. That is, unless the Reapers want to assist this 'purely organic' species to dominate all existence in the galaxy and wipe out all other types of organic life, and then the Reapers only exist to watch over this purely organic species to make sure that it doesn't die.

But then, they'd also have to nullify themselves as threats, as it does seem that Reapers themselves ARE part of the synthetic-organic cycle.

 

It just doesn't work. Or at least, it doesn't work as well as the Reaping Cycle, which is a fact that would be of foremost importance to the Catalyst. The very nature of organic life, how it works, how it proliferates, defies the order that the Reapers were given by the Leviathans. You'd have to make sure that all organic life everywhere is shackled to not make synthetic life and/or never come into conflict with it. And to do that, will involve either a purely organic species to rule over everything everywhere and mind control/kill other organics everywhere (Super Leviathans that don't make AI)*, or well, turning organics partially synthetic. And if you're doing that, you may as well turn them into Reapers that can ensure a controlled system instead of deviations.

 

*That has never happened. And even the example itself given in OP doesn't count, though it comes closer to the qualifications than anything else, sure.

[SwobyJ]

Basically, there's never enough assurances that organics won't make synthetics. There's enough of a statistical prescient, that one case example would never be enough to convince the Reapers to stop. They have too much history on their side (as far as they see it).

 

It is a Cycle of Death, and ultimately of hopelessness. There is nothing in the Reapers to go to a purely organic species and go "You know, heh, maybe this species might really never make synthetics that it'll fight and die against!" They don't have hope. They have probabilities. And programming that is simultaneously too broad and too constrictive.

 

And a purely organic species not making any synthetics is inconsequential. The Reapers made enough of an irony/paradox, where this species must always come into conflict Reapers anyway. One of the most villainous (if Renegade; depressing if Paragon) aspects of the Reapers is their self justifications of their own existence.

 

By even fighting the Reapers, you prove the Reapers right. They might take a pause if everyone in a Cycle, from the start of the Reaping, just stood up and went "It's okay! We want to work with you!" without any indoctrination involved, but even that might not work and fit the models well enough.

 

They needed someone to resist well enough and long enough and successfully enough to beat them. The Reapers eventually existed purely to be stopped.

[GalacticWolf5]

The Leviathan's didn't seem to rely on synthetics yet they were part of the problem.

 

The Leviathans created a Synthetic (The Intelligence, aka The Catalyst) to help them. They relied on a Synthetic.

[Vortex13]

To add another element to the discussion, would the Reapers consider a species like the Tyranids to be advanced in the same way that the view the Asari and Humans advanced? What is their what is their minimum threshold for a species to be "ripe" for the harvest? Is it the ability to achieve spaceflight, the capacity to activate the Mass Relays, the discovery of the Citadel?

 

 

The Catalyst says that the Reapers leaves the lesser evolved species alone, but what is it's definition of evolved? For all intents and purposes the Tyranids are just a swarm of of alien locusts, sure they have intelligence, but they have nothing even close to what we would consider to be a civilization. What would be the requirements that the Tyranids would have to meet before the Reapers would consider them to be evolved enough to harvest?

 

 

Is it their potential to kill a Reaper? If that is the case then Thresher Maws should be on the list of harvest-able species since one took out a destroyer single handily. What about the Varren, if races like the Krogan are using them as war hounds to attack husks, does that make the Varren targets for assimilation?

[SwobyJ]

To add another element to the discussion, would the Reapers consider a species like the Tyranids to be advanced in the same way that the view the Asari and Humans advanced? What is their what is their minimum threshold for a species to be "ripe" for the harvest? Is it the ability to achieve spaceflight, the capacity to activate the Mass Relays, the discovery of the Citadel?

Technically, it is just spaceflight. However, the Reapers can only know more easily if you've achieved spaceflight and become spacefaring if you have activated the Mass Relay in your system. This is recorded by the Relays so the Reapers know quickly. If you've reached the Citadel (which would be very quickly after discovering the Mass Relays anyway), then all the easier.

Hypothetically, we've be ripe for harvest decades ago IRL-time. But the Reapers may not know unless they checked our system, and then they still have to make a judgement call most likely (one trip to Luna/Moon may not count). Otherwise, we got many many years left.
 
 

The Catalyst says that the Reapers leaves the lesser evolved species alone, but what is it's definition of evolved? For all intents and purposes the Tyranids are just a swarm of of alien locusts, sure they have intelligence, but they have nothing even close to what we would consider to be a civilization. What would be the requirements that the Tyranids would have to meet before the Reapers would consider them to be evolved enough to harvest?

Likely theoretically capable of feats like creating AI, using the Mass Relays, or the equivalent. IMO they would count.
 
 

Is it their potential to kill a Reaper? If that is the case then Thresher Maws should be on the list of harvest-able species since one took out a destroyer single handily. What about the Varren, if races like the Krogan are using them as war hounds to attack husks, does that make the Varren targets for assimilation?

Is it there potential to kill a Reaper? ABSOLUTELY.

Thresher Maws couldn't be shown to kill a Reaper as a species until now, and it took the Mother of them to do it. IMO if once Destroyer was killed by a Maw, the Thresher Maws may have to watch their asses in the current/next cycle (in a Refuse ending). I also wouldn't say it was 'easy' for the Maw, only quick.
Though I'm not sure if they would be harvested or only killed off. Hell, for all we know, maybe the Maws are culled every cycle, but never eliminated due to their proliferating nature.

Varren are nothing. I hope that wasn't serious.

[Larry-3]

So no one is going to make a Yuuzhan Vong reference from Star Wars? Anybody? ... No? ... (sigh) biotechnology.

[Vortex13]

So no one is going to make a Yuuzhan Vong reference from Star Wars? Anybody? ... No? ... (sigh) biotechnology.

 

 

Eh, I always preferred the Tyranids, as the de facto pure biological/bio-engineered science fiction species.

 

I always liked the non-human/implacable other element to them. The Yuuzhan Vong were too human in their motives and actions for my tastes.

[Vortex13]

@SwobyJ

 

Varren are not advanced it's true, but if they are used as beasts of war and contribute to attacks on Reaper forces would that make them a target? 

 

 

The Tyranids are comprised of millions and trillions of bioforms individually no more intelligent than a dog, but working together and under the directing force of the Hive Mind they can execute tactics and higher level cognitive functions.

 

 

My point on mentioning the Varren and Thresher Maws is that if they are being used as tools by higher lifeforms to combat the Reapers, wouldn't that make them potential targets for the harvest? If the Reapers will ignore aliens with limited sapience, then how would they treat a symbiotic swarm species like the Tyranids?

[SwobyJ]

@SwobyJ
 
Varren are not advanced it's true, but if they are used as beasts of war and contribute to attacks on Reaper forces would that make them a target? 
 
The Tyranids are comprised of millions and trillions of bioforms individually no more intelligent than a dog, but working together and under the directing force of the Hive Mind they can execute tactics and higher level cognitive functions.
 
My point on mentioning the Varren and Thresher Maws is that if they are being used as tools by higher lifeforms to combat the Reapers, wouldn't that make them potential targets for the harvest? If the Reapers will ignore aliens with limited sapience, then how would they treat a symbiotic swarm species like the Tyranids?

 

Varren would be targets if they got in the way of the Harvest. As a species: Reapers - "Whatever."

 

Geth programs are not intelligent 'individually'. They were still set to be Harvested and/or Destroyed.

 

My prediction is that since the Tyranids were intelligent as a whole, the Reapers would attempt to Harvest them as a whole. If it is really too much hassle, they don't get harvested, since the Reapers don't need to save every species.

[Valmar]

The Leviathans created a Synthetic (The Intelligence, aka The Catalyst) to help them. They relied on a Synthetic.

 

One, singular. They didn't rely on synthetics. Though this is more a defense of semantics I suppose. 

 

Back to the Tyranids though what if they fought an enemy that was overwhelming them due to their technological disposition? If they devoured them wouldn't they get the traits that lead to such technological affinity? Thus leading to them incorporating technology at some point?