48 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

Pretty sure the ME2 conversation with that Asari mentions them being technological wonders (which is supported by them becoming Crucible engineers). The rachni are kind of a weird case - we never see them use tech, but apparently they're really good at it.

 

What's also weird about the Rachni is that we know they were present during the Prothean Cycle, as Javik mentions them being used as biological weapons before they got out of control and the Protheans were forced to exterminate them?

 

Which makes me wonder if they were "spared" the previous Cycle because the Reapers believed them already extinct, or that the Reapers knew some still lived on Suen but they were deemed still too primitive to harvest?

[Vortex13]

One, singular. They didn't rely on synthetics. Though this is more a defense of semantics I suppose. 

 

Back to the Tyranids though what if they fought an enemy that was overwhelming them due to their technological disposition? If they devoured them wouldn't they get the traits that lead to such technological affinity? Thus leading to them incorporating technology at some point?

 

 

No the Tyranids would just bioengineer new strains of biomorphs until they developed one that could resist the technological prowess of their opponents. A perfect example of such an occurrence is within the Tyranid's own lore, specifically the Tyranid Hive Fleet Gorgon's assault on the Tau held world of Sha'draig.

 

 

Tyranids would incorporate higher intelligences into smarter synapse (or commander level) organisms, but they wouldn't develop the capacity to design synthetic auxiliaries; if we are going by their established lore.

[Valmar]

Interesting. I'm not sure why they wouldn't create tools or what have you but still interesting. I never really knew Warhammer (thats what its from right?) had such lore. I should look into it sometime.

[Vortex13]

What's also weird about the Rachni is that we know they were present during the Prothean Cycle, as Javik mentions them being used as biological weapons before they got out of control and the Protheans were forced to exterminate them?

 

Which makes me wonder if they were "spared" the previous Cycle because the Reapers believed them already extinct, or that the Reapers knew some still lived on Suen but they were deemed still too primitive to harvest?

 

 

Yeah the details on the Rachni that Javik provides does make them an interesting case. They were obviously smart enough to break containment and confront the Prothean empire, and they were smart enough to go into hiding when the Prothean counter attack brought them to near extinction. The Rachni were obviously smart enough to utilize spacecraft of some sort; otherwise how would they have been able to flee to Suen; and they were common knowledge that even a common soldier knew the specifics of their actions.

 

 

Yet despite these facts, the Rachni were not harvested in the previous cycle. What's even more interesting is that the Rachni had demonstrated an innate resistance to indoctrination (for the Queens anyway); why keep the Queen shackled if the Reapers could just dominate her mind? Its not like one needs higher thought processes to squeeze out babies, unless they couldn't control her. This is interesting because the Reapers have been shown to completely ignore the harvest of species resistant or immune to indoctrination and just go straight for extermination; they were doing this to the Vorcha in the current cycle when it was discovered that their unique biology rendered them immune to indoctrination effects. It seems that such species are deemed too risky and given high priority on the 'make extinct' list.

 

Why the Rachni were not immediately hunted down by Reaper armadas in the last cycle seems to be odd, unless the Reapers believed the Prothean accounts about their extinction.

[Vortex13]

Interesting. I'm not sure why they wouldn't create tools or what have you but still interesting. I never really knew Warhammer (thats what its from right?) had such lore. I should look into it sometime.

 

 

Yeah Warhammer: 40,000, it actually has a lot of interesting lore to it. 

 

 

Just stay away from stuff by Matt Ward. He has shown numerous times that he is willing to try and fundamentally alter the setting to suit his preferred factions, and don't get me started on what he did to the Necrons 

[Valmar]

Yeah the details on the Rachni that Javik provides does make them an interesting case. They were obviously smart enough to break containment and confront the Prothean empire, and they were smart enough to go into hiding when the Prothean counter attack brought them to near extinction. The Rachni were obviously smart enough to utilize spacecraft of some sort; otherwise how would they have been able to flee to Suen; and they were common knowledge that even a common soldier knew the specifics of their actions.

 

 

Yet despite these facts, the Rachni were not harvested in the previous cycle. What's even more interesting is that the Rachni had demonstrated an innate resistance to indoctrination (for the Queens anyway); why keep the Queen shackled if the Reapers could just dominate her mind? Its not like one needs higher thought processes to squeeze out babies, unless they couldn't control her. This is interesting because the Reapers have been shown to completely ignore the harvest of species resistant or immune to indoctrination and just go straight for extermination; they were doing this to the Vorcha in the current cycle when it was discovered that their unique biology rendered them immune to indoctrination effects. It seems that such species are deemed too risky and given high priority on the 'make extinct' list.

 

Why the Rachni were not immediately hunted down by Reaper armadas in the last cycle seems to be odd, unless the Reapers believed the Prothean accounts about their extinction.

 

What you mention about the queen and indoctrination an interesting subject. We haven't seen the reapers indoctrinate the queens, not even the clone. It makes one suspect that due to their unique nature the queen is immune. Potentially even the children are naturally immune since all the rachni we see are huskified with reaper tech. Given how the rachni are a hive mind where the children follow orders from the queen I can see why they would have to instill such invasive cybernetic means to instill control over the children, as they cannot take over the queen herself, apparently.

 

I say its interesting because it brings to question who exactly were responsible for the rachni wars. The reapers? The leviathan? The protheans? No one? I think it was the Leviathans, myself, as the rachni seem like an ideal control subject for them. Their form of control is complete, direct. Due to the nature of the rachni they'd only need to take over the queens and through those queens they'd have control of the entire species.

 

 

Where does it say vorcha are immune to indoctrination? I only saw that they were unaffected by physiological warfare like intimidation. Which isn't the same as reaper indoctrination. It just means that no matter how much their world you burn and how much you try to make them fall into a depression, vorcha don't give a beep. YOU DIE NOW, SSKSKK!

 

The turians are a bit similar I'd imagine. The krogan tried to demoralize them in the rebellions, based off my memory, by bombarding their worlds. Rather than demoralize them, however, it only made them tenacious and driven.

[Vortex13]

What you mention about the queen and indoctrination an interesting subject. We haven't seen the reapers indoctrinate the queens, not even the clone. It makes one suspect that due to their unique nature the queen is immune. Potentially even the children are naturally immune since all the rachni we see are huskified with reaper tech. Given how the rachni are a hive mind where the children follow orders from the queen I can see why they would have to instill such invasive cybernetic means to instill control over the children, as they cannot take over the queen herself, apparently.

 

I say its interesting because it brings to question who exactly were responsible for the rachni wars. The reapers? The leviathan? The protheans? No one? I think it was the Leviathans, myself, as the rachni seem like an ideal control subject for them. Their form of control is complete, direct. Due to the nature of the rachni they'd only need to take over the queens and through those queens they'd have control of the entire species.

 

 

Where does it say vorcha are immune to indoctrination? I only saw that they were unaffected by physiological warfare like intimidation. Which isn't the same as reaper indoctrination. It just means that no matter how much their world you burn and how much you try to make them fall into a depression, vorcha don't give a beep. YOU DIE NOW, SSKSKK!

 

The turians are a bit similar I'd imagine. The krogan tried to demoralize them in the rebellions, based off my memory, by bombarding their worlds. Rather than demoralize them, however, it only made them tenacious and driven.

 

 

I think that the Leviathans are what BioWare was leaning towards in regards to who was behind the Rachni Wars, though I personally would have preferred it to had just been the Rachni acting of their own volition. It would have made for a more interesting development of the Rachni's character if their aggressiveness lead to their near extinction (again), and the last surviving queen realizing that their hostile nature needs to be kept in check. It would have been better (IMO) than relying on mind control. "This character is not being antagonistic because of their predisposed motivations or opinions, its because the Reapers/Leviathans made them do it".

 

 

As far as the Vorcha being immune is concerned, I believe it was in the Leviathan DLC, there is a codex entry (or planet description not sure which) that mentions how the Vorcha held worlds are just being bombed from orbit by the Reapers rather than their standard "soften up then start the harvest" procedure. I might be remembering this wrong, but I believe it was mentioned how the Vorcha proved resilient to Reaper indoctrination effects.

 

 

Even if that is not the case, I would still wager that the Vorcha's innate ability to adapt would have made indoctrination infeasible in the long run, since members of the species would merely develop counters to the indoctrination signal. The indoctrination effect is mostly based on sound waves, and other frequencies, if it started to prove detrimental to Vorcha health, they would simply build up a tolerance to the signal.

[Vazgen]

The Reaper invasion of Heshtok encountered little formal military resistance, but the harvesting process is slow. Destroying neighboring cities fails to intimidate vorcha, who become submissive only if physically dominated in person. Cutting off their water supply simply makes them adapt their bodies to get moisture from food. Allied intelligence hypothesizes that Reaper forces are not harvesting yet, instead seeking to immobilize Heshtok's population and prevent them from joining the fight for the galaxy at large.

 

I hope we get a vorcha squadmate in ME:Next. They are one of my favorite ME species

[Vortex13]

The Reaper invasion of Heshtok encountered little formal military resistance, but the harvesting process is slow. Destroying neighboring cities fails to intimidate vorcha, who become submissive only if physically dominated in person. Cutting off their water supply simply makes them adapt their bodies to get moisture from food. Allied intelligence hypothesizes that Reaper forces are not harvesting yet, instead seeking to immobilize Heshtok's population and prevent them from joining the fight for the galaxy at large.

 

I hope we get a vorcha squadmate in ME:Next. They are one of my favorite ME species

 

 

Ah, so I was incorrect. The lore doesn't explicitly state that the Vorcha are immune or resistant to the effects of indoctrination. Still, their ability to adapt has got to make indoctrination a difficult process, compared to the rest of the galaxy.

 

 

And I agree, a Vorcha squad mate, or more of the 'alien' aliens would be most welcome in future titles.

[Farangbaa]

There are no species that don't create AI.

Any sufficiently intelligent and advanced species will do it. This is one of the founding issues of the Catalyst's problem.

[Valmar]

Ah, so I was incorrect. The lore doesn't explicitly state that the Vorcha are immune or resistant to the effects of indoctrination. Still, their ability to adapt has got to make indoctrination a difficult process, compared to the rest of the galaxy.

 

 

And I agree, a Vorcha squad mate, or more of the 'alien' aliens would be most welcome in future titles.

 

Ever play vorcha in multiplayer? If you ever have shields you're playing it wrong. Such a blast.

 

The vorcha's incredible adaptability could possibly make them immune. Though it could also make them even more vulnerable. What is easier, adapting to the waves and accepting their orders or struggling against them? I mean, look at the quarians. Their immune system adapted to be more receptacle rather than more resilient.

 

It's possible the vorcha, given that they have little mind of their own to begin with anyway, would just adapt to accept the signal without any struggle. Their adaptability could be either their saving grace or their Achilles heel.

[Vortex13]

There are no species that don't create AI.

Any sufficiently intelligent and advanced species will do it. This is one of the founding issues of the Catalyst's problem.

 

 

We don't know that for sure though. The Catalyst says that conflict is inevitable and that all organics must create synthetics in order to bypass their limitations, but we have only encountered species that fit into the guidelines set by the Catalyst and Reapers. We don't know if it's control group is biased based on what the Leviathans programed into it. It will assume that all life will create artificial life to solve problems, because that's what the Leviathans did, and that's what they assumed every other species would do. 

 

 

The logic that an organic species will always construct artificial intelligence to overcome said species limitations is limited (IMO). What about a species like the Tyranids, an alien race that uses bio-engineering and forced evolution and adaptation to overcome limitations? The use of synthetics is useful to a species that wants to retain its form and way of life, but what about a species who's very nature is metamorphic? The Tyranids vary widely in appearance and function, and not one organism can be seen as the origin point of the species as a whole.

 

 

We create spacecraft because we can't survive exposed to the elements, but what if a creature could survive such hostile environments naturally? Why would synthetics be needed, if an alien race could simply adapt to and overcome its limitations biologically?

[Vortex13]

Ever play vorcha in multiplayer? If you ever have shields you're playing it wrong. Such a blast.

 

The vorcha's incredible adaptability could possibly make them immune. Though it could also make them even more vulnerable. What is easier, adapting to the waves and accepting their orders or struggling against them? I mean, look at the quarians. Their immune system adapted to be more receptacle rather than more resilient.

 

It's possible the vorcha, given that they have little mind of their own to begin with anyway, would just adapt to accept the signal without any struggle. Their adaptability could be either their saving grace or their Achilles heel.

 

 

Very true.

 

 

They might actually make for a great replacement for the Collectors if their adaptation worked to incorporate the indoctrination signal rather than fight it. Still their regenerative ability might make the long term effects of indoctrination moot. Any other species that has long term Reaper influence placed upon them (or a whole lot all at once) will become a puppet to Reaper control, eventually becoming clinically brain dead without Reaper intervention.

 

The Vorcha's regeneration might counteract that.

[Valmar]

Very true.

 

 

They might actually make for a great replacement for the Collectors if their adaptation worked to incorporate the indoctrination signal rather than fight it. Still their regenerative ability might make the long term effects of indoctrination moot. Any other species that has long term Reaper influence placed upon them (or a whole lot all at once) will become a puppet to Reaper control, eventually becoming clinically brain dead without Reaper intervention.

 

The Vorcha's regeneration might counteract that.

 

I think they'd make a fine replacement for collectors because of that, actually. The prothean's genes began deteriorating after several cloned cycles and had to be supplemented by tech. The vorcha on the other hand could very well endure such things without the crutch due to their incredible adaptability. Alternatively though they could be the next keepers, since the original batch have been corrupted by the protheans.

[Quarian Master Race]

Don't know anything about Warhammer Tyranids, but there were also those Vong things from Star Wars EU books that had a religious hatred of any non biological technologies, as another example. Why would the Reapers attempt to harvest an advanced species that not only did not use synthetic technology of any kind, but had a morality/ religious system that forbade any research into or development of these things.

Of course, if I remember correctly the Vong would destroy droids/synthetics on principle, so such a species may see the Reapers as an affront or heresy and get themselves killed off by attacking them.

[Vortex13]

Don't know anything about Warhammer Tyranids, but there were also those Vong things from Star Wars EU books that had a religious hatred of any non biological technologies, as another example. Why would the Reapers attempt to harvest an advanced species that not only did not use synthetic technology of any kind, but had a morality/ religious system that forbade any research into or development of these things.

Of course, if I remember correctly the Vong would destroy droids/synthetics on principle, so such a species may see the Reapers as an affront or heresy and get themselves killed off by attacking them.

 

 

The Yuzhoung Vong's use of purely biological technology was more of a religion than something innate about them, and religions or cultural norms can change over time. Their reliance on bio-engineering only went so far as the religious leaders would allow, once they started falling out of power, the society started to become more open to accepting non-organic technology.

 

 

A species like the Tyranids though, wouldn't have it's use of bio-technology based off of a decision to not use synthetics out of a religious duty, it would be based on pure instinct, the thing that makes them what they are. A race like the Tyranids wouldn't invest time and energy into creating non-organic technologies, because they gain no sustenance from it; the entire driving force behind them is their constant need to feed, grow, and evolve. Such a species wouldn't really even have a society or civilization as we know it.

 

 

For reference, and just because I am looking for an opportunity to nerd out about the Tyranids 

 

[SwobyJ]

One, singular. They didn't rely on synthetics. Though this is more a defense of semantics I suppose. 

 

Back to the Tyranids though what if they fought an enemy that was overwhelming them due to their technological disposition? If they devoured them wouldn't they get the traits that lead to such technological affinity? Thus leading to them incorporating technology at some point?

 

@Bolded - It really is.

[SwobyJ]

If you don't believe the Catalyst is right, pick Destroy. Leave the room open for your hypothetical (but possible??) purely organic species to rise up.

 

And probably enslave or devour humankind but whatever.

 

Or hope beyond all hope that humanity actually agrees to completely avoid synthetics and destroy every one they see and evolve over 1000s-1000000000s+ of years to become strong enough to defeat any synthetic life of power levels we know of.

 

Okay basically, sure, maybe maybe your example could exist. However, the Catalyst doesn't go on that. They go on Leviathan (cycle? if the Leviathans 'took blood tribute from organics' aka eating, this is a harvest cycle of its own lol) data + Reaper cycle data. We can decide we don't think it is correct enough and choose Destroy based purely on that. Shepard's behavior at the end can be interpreted that way, if we want.

 

All establishments of Order run on greater truths, but those truths that offer a stability and (relative) peace may be shattered by conflicting information that arises from Chaos.

 

Organic evolution may always surprise. It seemingly did surprise the Reapers (at least in a way) in ME1-ME3. But I think we can confidently say - at least if we trust the Catalyst is not lying to us about stuff - that 99.9999999% of spacefaring organic species will create synthetic life and come into conflict with it. Either because the synthetics were programmed badly by the organics, or because organics can't stand synthetics gaining intelligence and outcomes of that.

 

"You bring it on yourselves." -Low EMS

 

Or we can take the anti-Catalyst take, and instead say it is because synthetics are monsters that we've only unleashed (harder to say about the Geth by the end of ME3, but still more easily applicable in other examples), or because they're tools that need to return to their rightful place and not rebel (applicable to even a Renegade approach to EDI).

 

But yes, ANY sense of order is shown as an illusion when given enough time (possibly billions or trillions), and you may in fact be right if you wondered if the MEU has some kind of organic species that would defy the Catalyst's conclusions and source data. It is a universe after all, not the Milky Way 'petri dish'.

 

Is it better to be correct, or right? And can one ever be completely correct, or right? (I know this sounds like a purely rhetorical question, but I'm using it more practically to apply to the validity of the Catalyst's data - if it is telling the truth about its conclusions from the data - compared to your/Destroy-Shepard's possible position that organics, some organics, somewhere, may in fact triumph against synthetics they encounter, never make synthetics of their own, etc.

[Display Name Owner]

I guess the issue is technically supposed to be that machine races are capable of destroying all organics as a whole, what with their not needing half the stuff organics need to survive and being able to advance at a greater rate and all that. I don't think the Catalyst cares about inter-organic wars, since that's not what the Leviathans designed it to worry about. Although it does point out that harvesting advanced species lets younger ones get their time to shine. I think that's more of an afterthought though.

 

Anyway, I guess it wouldn't much care about what goes on in any cycle until machines start appearing. I know the game says the Reapers come every 50,000 years, but that doesn't even make sense because the Vanguard's job is to determine when a cycle is ripe for harvest. 

 

I guess it would depend on if the Catalyst is concerned with preserving diversity in the galaxy. If this one bio-synthetic race threatened to kill everyone and take the galaxy for themselves maybe it would act. Actually I suppose the cycle depends on there being other species left to take over after the last ones are harvested, so as long as these organic synthetics can't spread over the entire galaxy it doesn't matter what they do.

[Linkenski]

Each cycle has a Sovereign who scouts the cycle for unwanted developments. If said purely organic species would be in any kind of contact with AIs I guess the Reapers would target them.

[Vortex13]

I wonder if the Reapers would be able to completely harvest such a species. One of the major problems with the Tyranids in their lore is that they are notoriously hard to kill. A few bioforms make it to a planet and you will eventually have another full blown Hive Fleet on your hands.

 

 

After a few cycles I wonder if the Catalyst would be looking at said species and going "Clearly they are more resourceful than we realized".

[o Ventus]

I prefer the Zerg to the Tyranids, personally.

 

Do the Nids have a figure like Abathur, from StarCraft 2? He pools the genetic information assimilated by the zerg and uses it to 'spin' mutations to apply to Zerg units.

 

 

Honestly, I think the Zerg alone could beat the Reapers. Ultralisks by themselves are capable of tanking nukes, and Primal Kerrigan is practically a god with how powerful her psychic abilities are. 

 

Could the Reapers convert a primal Zerg into a husk? They adapt and evolve almost on-the-spot to new environments and after they kill another creature.

[Vortex13]

I prefer the Zerg to the Tyranids, personally.

 

Do the Nids have a figure like Abathur, from StarCraft 2? He pools the genetic information assimilated by the zerg and uses it to 'spin' mutations to apply to Zerg units.

 

 

Honestly, I think the Zerg alone could beat the Reapers. Ultralisks by themselves are capable of tanking nukes, and Primal Kerrigan is practically a god with how powerful her psychic abilities are. 

 

Could the Reapers convert a primal Zerg into a husk? They adapt and evolve almost on-the-spot to new environments and after they kill another creature.

 

 

Actually the Tyranids do, they're called Norn-Queens.

 

Really the Tyranids and the Zerg are practically the same, the only differences being the scales involved (Tyranids are intergalactic, Zerg are interstellar) and the Tyranids having a far more 'alien' methodology to their actions, goals, objectives. Kerrigan adds a 'human' element to the Swarm. The Tyranids are completely alien.

 

 

I like both, but I would have to say the Tyranids are my favorite, they aren't motivated by petty human emotions. 

[o Ventus]

 

I like both, but I would have to say the Tyranids are my favorite, they aren't motivated by petty human emotions.  

Pre-Kerrigan Zerg were the same when they were led by the Overmind.

 

Although, now that Kerrigan is the leader (especially so since she gained the power of the primal Zerg and incorporated them into the Swarm), the Zerg are the strongest they've ever been.

 

I hope Blizzard expands the setting for StarCraft 3 to more than 1 galaxy, considering the build up from both WoL and HotS (and LotV, when it releases).